Which of these original Tech Tree ideas are still planned to be implemented?
CrushaK
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
At the end of <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit?pli=1" target="_blank">this design document</a> are the Tech Trees for both factions listed. There are quite some interesting things in there that are not included yet in the current game, so I am wondering if they have been tried in the past already and have been discarded, have been deemed not feasible due to other changes or are yet to be included.
On the marine side:
<ul><li>Concussive Rifles research in Armory. Concussive Rifles apply knockback to "light" aliens, probably Skulks and Lerks.</li><li>Catpack research in Armory. No idea what this is, but I assume it to be something like a movement speed upgrade for marines that they had to buy for pres.</li><li>Nerve Gas upgrade for Grenade Launchers in Armory. Probably would add area denial for marines, similar to Lerk Spores.</li><li>Flamethrower Alternative Fire upgrade in Armory. No idea what this would be like. A common alternative firemode for flamethrowers in other games is to be able to spray fuel at enemies or the environment and set them on fire afterwards for increased damage or area denial.</li><li>Sentry upgrade in Robotics Factory. It's listed as "reduced build time", but given how low that one already is, it would probably be a different upgrade nowadays.</li><li>ARC upgrades in Robotics Factory. Armor upgrade and increased Splash Radius. Might make it arguably OP, depending on how much of an upgrade we are talking about.</li><li>Jetpack upgrades in Prototype Lab. Energy and Armor upgrade. Would probably make it too much of a buff without a downside (according to the doc, the current downside of Jetpacks should be the noise they make as well as reduced walking speed while on the ground).</li><li>Exosuit Lockdown upgrade in Prototype Lab. No idea, really.</li><li>Nuke. (Are they trolling us here?)</li><li>Blast Radius and Jump Jets are not associated with any structure in the tree.</li></ul>
Not much on the alien side (many things have been moved around in the tree by now or probably deemed OP through testing, like ranged poison and Bile Bomb for Lerks):
<ul><li>Encrust as Gorge ability. From the sound of it, I'd imagine something like a temporary overheal similar to TF2's Medic.</li><li>Primal Scream as Onos 3rd Hive ability. No idea what this was supposed to be. But since Stomp has been moved from 2nd to 3rd Hive already…</li></ul>
On the marine side:
<ul><li>Concussive Rifles research in Armory. Concussive Rifles apply knockback to "light" aliens, probably Skulks and Lerks.</li><li>Catpack research in Armory. No idea what this is, but I assume it to be something like a movement speed upgrade for marines that they had to buy for pres.</li><li>Nerve Gas upgrade for Grenade Launchers in Armory. Probably would add area denial for marines, similar to Lerk Spores.</li><li>Flamethrower Alternative Fire upgrade in Armory. No idea what this would be like. A common alternative firemode for flamethrowers in other games is to be able to spray fuel at enemies or the environment and set them on fire afterwards for increased damage or area denial.</li><li>Sentry upgrade in Robotics Factory. It's listed as "reduced build time", but given how low that one already is, it would probably be a different upgrade nowadays.</li><li>ARC upgrades in Robotics Factory. Armor upgrade and increased Splash Radius. Might make it arguably OP, depending on how much of an upgrade we are talking about.</li><li>Jetpack upgrades in Prototype Lab. Energy and Armor upgrade. Would probably make it too much of a buff without a downside (according to the doc, the current downside of Jetpacks should be the noise they make as well as reduced walking speed while on the ground).</li><li>Exosuit Lockdown upgrade in Prototype Lab. No idea, really.</li><li>Nuke. (Are they trolling us here?)</li><li>Blast Radius and Jump Jets are not associated with any structure in the tree.</li></ul>
Not much on the alien side (many things have been moved around in the tree by now or probably deemed OP through testing, like ranged poison and Bile Bomb for Lerks):
<ul><li>Encrust as Gorge ability. From the sound of it, I'd imagine something like a temporary overheal similar to TF2's Medic.</li><li>Primal Scream as Onos 3rd Hive ability. No idea what this was supposed to be. But since Stomp has been moved from 2nd to 3rd Hive already…</li></ul>
Comments
<ul><li>Concussive Rifles research in Armory. Concussive Rifles apply knockback to "light" aliens, probably Skulks and Lerks.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->The LMG melee attack had a knock back in the beta. It was infuriating and removed because aliens should dominate melee.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>Catpack research in Armory. No idea what this is, but I assume it to be something like a movement speed upgrade for marines that they had to buy for pres.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Was in, was removed. Can't remember why.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>Nerve Gas upgrade for Grenade Launchers in Armory. Probably would add area denial for marines, similar to Lerk Spores.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Never heard of.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>Flamethrower Alternative Fire upgrade in Armory. No idea what this would be like. A common alternative firemode for flamethrowers in other games is to be able to spray fuel at enemies or the environment and set them on fire afterwards for increased damage or area denial.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->You can already set props on fire.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>Sentry upgrade in Robotics Factory. It's listed as "reduced build time", but given how low that one already is, it would probably be a different upgrade nowadays.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Probably not. Sentries are already very difficult to balance.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>ARC upgrades in Robotics Factory. Armor upgrade and increased Splash Radius. Might make it arguably OP, depending on how much of an upgrade we are talking about.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->The buttons for this were in. I think they got removed, because ARCs are already powerful enough. With a cap on the amount of ARCs, they could be useful again.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>Jetpack upgrades in Prototype Lab. Energy and Armor upgrade. Would probably make it too much of a buff without a downside (according to the doc, the current downside of Jetpacks should be the noise they make as well as reduced walking speed while on the ground).
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->The buttons were in, but got removed. Jetpacks are already in a good state I think. Introducing an upgrade would just make it to difficult to balance.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>Exosuit Lockdown upgrade in Prototype Lab. No idea, really.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->No idea either.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>Nuke. (Are they trolling us here?)
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->There were thoughts on some game-ender-tech, at times where turtles were really common and a huge problem. The consensus was, that such a "button" is not appreciated. And that turtles himself were the problem.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>Blast Radius and Jump Jets are not associated with any structure in the tree.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->???<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li></ul>
Not much on the alien side (many things have been moved around in the tree by now or probably deemed OP through testing, like ranged poison and Bile Bomb for Lerks):
<ul><li>Encrust as Gorge ability. From the sound of it, I'd imagine something like a temporary overheal similar to TF2's Medic.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->You are right on this. They mentioned it in a Q&A I think. I'm hoping that this is on its way, to bring the gorge more near to the front lines.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>Primal Scream as Onos 3rd Hive ability. No idea what this was supposed to be. But since Stomp has been moved from 2nd to 3rd Hive already…
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->In NS1 it was an AOE buff for surrounding aliens. If I remember right, it increased attack speed. Enzyme cloud now does this. But they said, they want to have 3 abilities for every life form.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li></ul>
Walk out the hive, hit boom, kill everything in that hive room. :D
It would give an added incentive for chicken marines to actually chase an onos down and kill it as it flees a battlezone, when the guy inside the onos is screaming "please guys free me, free me!"
I guess onos speed should be lowered while hes carrying a marine in his belly.
The Catpack...cataclyst..catalysator pack from NS1 made you reload faster, right? ;)
It would give an added incentive for chicken marines to actually chase an onos down and kill it as it flees a battlezone, when the guy inside the onos is screaming "please guys free me, free me!"
I guess onos speed should be lowered while hes carrying a marine in his belly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO.
Just NO.
The single reason I stopped playing NS1 right there.
I do want to see more abilities for those lifeforms without them (and revamped versions of xeno and vortex), however.
Thus defeating the main purpose of devour: to remove a marine from the game for a set amount of time. It was a bad mechanic, and I'm only glad to see the back of it in any form.
I never played but I figure that was the point of devour, to take a player out of the combat for however long it lasted. Being able to "tap out" negates the entire purpose in that regard. Besides, it's not like an onos is overly likely to die.
in sc a ghost can lock down nukes, while doing so he is invisble and cant move,
but you can see a red dot on the target and can do a scan in the area to uncloak the ghost and kick hist butt :)
Nuke is NOT a joke. It was part of early NS1, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it in NS2. What it did was give marines a way to kill an alien hive, but at great cost. What this did was put the aliens on the offensive to prevent the hive destruction instead of on the defensive. It was removed very early in the life of NS1, so I only vaguely remember it. (it's been 10 years) IIRC you needed to build a 'nuclear plant' structure, and then research nukes nukes from there.
Thanks for the info. I think Catpack is catalyst pack. Run faster (I know) and increase the LMG firing rate (I think). Hated it.
On the Nuke one, it would nice if turtling marines could nuke themselves using "Concede".
<!--quoteo(post=2065903:date=Jan 24 2013, 05:39 AM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Jan 24 2013, 05:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would give an added incentive for chicken marines to actually chase an onos down and kill it as it flees a battlezone, when the guy inside the onos is screaming "please guys free me, free me!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just tell the marines, "Onos is almost dead.". True or not, the marines will usually turn into wild game hunters.
I hated devour.
3 functions:
1. to kill a marine at the end of the duration
2. to take out the marine for a while
3. to heal the onos
The marine inside could be freed if someone kills the onos. That skill was just funny like hell. Your frustration says me that u was to much times a victim of a hungry onos :p .
Devour is a very controversial topic. Some people love it, some people hate it. But I think most people will agree, that the negative part of devour was, that it took you out of the fight for to long. The positive effects of Devour were: it was creative, (you were inside a belly!) it was a one-hit-kill with a very long cool down (would be useful against jetpackers in NS2; was useful against heavy armor in NS1) and it healed the onos.
If we agree, that this one negative mechanic was the only problem with Devour, we shouldn't deny the possible solution by saying:
<i>"but it was the main purpose to be a bad mechanic"</i>
Because it was not. We don't need to keep the bad mechanic. You can have the belly-view but you will respawn as soon as you would when you died through a normal attack (if you are not freed in this time). Devour doesn't get useless, just because it hasn't this one bad mechanic included.
Man you could even add to it:<ul><li>Make only 3 axe-hits required to free the victim (instead of killing the onos)</li><li>change the cool down and healing time. (it can be longer than the marine takes to respawn)</li><li>the onos could be slower while digesting</li></ul>
Come on, think a little bit out of the box. We don't need to copy devour from NS1. We can make it better than ever before!
I can remember a tech tree picture with jump jets as a research for exo... so yeah i would say its what ended up being the thrusters that we have now.
(tho i always hoped that it would allow dashing - kinda like shadowstep but not as agile and frequent)
Would devour perhaps be better suited to the game if you changed one or two things:
Marine can make out sounds through the onos' body, and be traceable on the map so marines a) know where the onos is making it easier to track down (also enhances the strategic use of the move as you cant run in and devour someone and run, because marines would be able to easily track you down), and b) the marine is able to hear alien sounds around the onos and can perhaps warn others of more onii or fades etc to be wary of.
Maybe marines also could use the axe inside the onos to try and do a leeeetle bit more damage to it? However it wouldnt do much if any damage until W3.
Has anything like this been considered to be implemented?
I just remember devour being a really original, cool mechanic from NS1 (the waiting time didnt bother me too much as... Time to skin up or have a sip of coffee! :D) and I've love to see it added in in non-OP/annoying form.
Pretty sure thats how it was in NS1. Problem was the onos would use devour immediately, so you had full health and would be stuck for a very long time.
That would make it less of an instant-kill and give marines a way of protection if they keep their armor up. Bile Bomb or Spike harassment woud support the Onos then.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CATALYST PACK :: Boosts the metabolism of a marine. The marine gains a 25% bonus to speed and fires his weapons 25% faster.
Cost: 4 resources
Duration: 8 seconds<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they were left out because they weren't really critical to NS2, rather than any reason against them.
As for the various ARC/JP/Exo upgrades, they fall into the 'useless comm busywork, tedious to balance' area. For example, in the alpha you were able to double the output of an RT by upgrading each one by 1/3 at a time. This led to the unfortunate experience of comms having to regularly cycle through all their RTs to keep upgrading them. Other upgrades that simply make an existing feature better would fall into this category.
It's already in the game.
It's called Vortex.
It would give an added incentive for chicken marines to actually chase an onos down and kill it as it flees a battlezone, when the guy inside the onos is screaming "please guys free me, free me!"
I guess onos speed should be lowered while hes carrying a marine in his belly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stuns, holds, and linds (these are at least are possible but harder to balance. see NS2 gorge spit) have absolutely no place in FPS's, especially ones that are putting large focus on competitive play. Little skill required, nobody likes losing complete control over their character.
It's called Vortex.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Technically, no.
The player can still move around and even block attacks. The player can't kill anything or be harmed.
Vortex disables, it's doesn't fully remove the player.
What used to happen was that an Onos would immediately devour marine #1 (usually a high priority target such as Heavy Armour or a marine with an upgraded gun like the Heavy Machine Gun) then proceed to attack anything else OR then run away and hide until the marine inside his/her belly came out at thend of the digestive process.
So most marines would be at or near 100% health in most cases of being devoured, die after some time then rejoin the spawn queue.
A very effective and slightly OP mechanic. No other life form on either side could 'lock down' another player for 'x' seconds let alone continue to effectively keep attacking. Yes I get the game is meant to be asymmetrical but my point still stands about devour being very effective.
It did destroy HA trains quite well too.
Edit: Didn't Catpacks also 'hurt' marines as well? You got a boost to attack speed but cost life as well? Bit like in Starcraft. Mind you Comms would also drop a health pack as well to negate this. Very effective against hive sneak attacks as you could destroy one in seconds with a few marines.
The player can still move around and even block attacks. The player can't kill anything or be harmed.
Vortex disables, it's doesn't fully remove the player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it's a nerfed version of devour.
Removes the marine from combat temporarily.
No.
I'd agree except L4D1/2 did immobilizing abilities well. That being said, its hard to pull it off so I'd say it would be best to minimize them in NS2.