The problem with turrets is that when you need them the most (early game) you can't afford them. But when you can afford them (later game) they are pretty much useless since lerks and gorges make quick work of taking them out. (even skulks make quick work of sentry nests if they are skilled.)
<!--quoteo(post=2059077:date=Jan 10 2013, 06:33 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 10 2013, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Two shifts working in tandem to echo a bunch of bombardment whips, crags, and other things into the enemy base while your team makes a push is a viable tactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hotkeys would make this tactic much more viable and fun. By that I mean being about to assign each Shift to a key like control groups in Starcraft and then being able to cycle through them while looking at the place you want to set the whips. If there is already a hotkey button I missed let me know... it would really help my horrible command skills.
<!--quoteo(post=2059937:date=Jan 12 2013, 08:00 PM:name=sotanaht)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sotanaht @ Jan 12 2013, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hotkeys would make this tactic much more viable and fun. By that I mean being about to assign each Shift to a key like control groups in Starcraft and then being able to cycle through them while looking at the place you want to set the whips. If there is already a hotkey button I missed let me know... it would really help my horrible command skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem with that is you need to cyst into the base to make that work, and aside from that the cost of the whips is ridiculous. For 2 1/2 of them you can just drop an onos egg, which in the right hands is far more effective.
there are very few scenarios where sentries are effective, pretty much none of them are early game. whips are...i dunno. they aren't very good speedbumps. if they didn't have to root/unroot they would be so much better. i guess there are a few niche strats/tactics that can use them, e.g. echoing whips into a marine push and then bone walling the marines so they can't escape. they are just far too expensive to utilize in any sort of 'normal' play.
<!--quoteo(post=2059918:date=Jan 13 2013, 02:54 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 13 2013, 02:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tl;dr version, you said they are useless unless it's against complete noobs...
I mean that's pretty much what we're all saying. But I don't think anyone is saying don't build turrets for fun or don't experiment. What we're saying is, it shouldn't be the first thing you build. And when you do build them don't expect fantastic results.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference here is that you should just try to answer the question asked, not that you should just drop on people that they don't work and are a waste of res.
There will be occasions where I will build them even vs. good teams to cover a forward pressure from an aggressive PG. They DO slow skulks down a bit when placed in an inward facing triangle, and that can buy you time to get more marines to the fight. I also build them in my base if I'm sitting on enough res to do so because it forces a gorge (usually) to deal with them quickly while my marines are out hive-sniping.
My point is that most experienced comms won't build SG's, we all know this by now... (I mean, its probably the most commonly spouted common-sense rule on the forums) but the OP was asking how to place them, not IF to place them. I'm just saying, answer the questions the OP asked rather than showing off your l337 creds.
sentries are weak, something needs to be done with them. If you are going to use them i usually place them in a circle aronud the battery pointing towards it. Perhaps a good fix for sentries would be to have a 360 sentry mounted atop the battery. So you get 3 180 sentries to go around it and 1 atop of it with 360 field of vision.
but its impossible to really defend anything with them, you cant ocver all sides of an extractor. If the radius was larger for turret palcementy around a battery then i could see them being a little more useful.
If your going to use sentry's use them offensively to assist a push. That generally means two pointing forward, one pointing backward just outside or inside the doorway to the room your attacking. Using them as a defense is too easily overcame.
<!--quoteo(post=2059975:date=Jan 12 2013, 10:39 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 12 2013, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Davil I think you are applying maths where it isn't needed.
Do we consider the 2 zero cost marines killing the onos as mathematically erronous?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Math is always needed!
Seriously though if an onos gets taken down by 2 marines with no upgrades, that's a pretty huge loss. That's a completely different situation though.
<!--quoteo(post=2060096:date=Jan 13 2013, 10:51 AM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 13 2013, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference here is that you should just try to answer the question asked, not that you should just drop on people that they don't work and are a waste of res.
There will be occasions where I will build them even vs. good teams to cover a forward pressure from an aggressive PG. They DO slow skulks down a bit when placed in an inward facing triangle, and that can buy you time to get more marines to the fight. I also build them in my base if I'm sitting on enough res to do so because it forces a gorge (usually) to deal with them quickly while my marines are out hive-sniping.
My point is that most experienced comms won't build SG's, we all know this by now... (I mean, its probably the most commonly spouted common-sense rule on the forums) but the OP was asking how to place them, not IF to place them. I'm just saying, answer the questions the OP asked rather than showing off your l337 creds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary - I'm certainly no l337 gamer, but the very best answer to the question: how should I place sentries? is: Don't. That's not trying to be clever or seem l337, it's trying to help someone out!! If you're a seasoned comm who's using sentries in an attacking role to help what must be a pretty awesome team (if you can trust them with the sentries!), then you won't need to ask the question.
By all means start up a server and play about with sentries, but anything - ANYTHING - that encourages pub comms to use sentries in anger should be actively discouraged.
I will use sentries on some occasions if i already have robotics, I will no get robotics to make sentries.
Placement is not to cover themselves*, they are expandable, but to inflict damage to incoming skulks. A corner is a good place for the battery.
*Why would you buy sentries to cover .. sentries ?
Sentries could use some boost in forms of upgrades so if you use some they still have some effect throughout the game. Like upgrading rate of fire (increase damage), or angle, or some protection to decrrease bile damage.
No need to make them more than what they are supposed to be : a bit of support.
Honestly I think sentries would be a hell of a lot more fun if they bundled all the costs into making them into an upgrade for "portable sentries" that the marine on the ground could pick, carry around, and place on the map and move around at their leisure and purchase with personal res,
Maybe if they removed the requirement for robotics factory we might see some situations in which sentries could be seriously employed. Sentries are only even somewhat effective at the very beginning of the game. Once bile bomb is up they basically become useless. So the only time to employ them is at the beginning of the game. But the nature of the game is all about resource snowballing. If you get sentries, you are not left with enough res for armory, and a few rts.
If we reduced the initial investment in this way we might possibly see some sentry use. I think it would be interesting to tinker with so we could at least see some variety in marine strategies. There has got to be some price point at which early sentries will become attractive, because they ARE helpful for defending positions in conjunction with marines against skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=2060994:date=Jan 15 2013, 02:22 PM:name=Angry Child)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angry Child @ Jan 15 2013, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I think sentries would be a hell of a lot more fun if they bundled all the costs into making them into an upgrade for "portable sentries" that the marine on the ground could pick, carry around, and place on the map and move around at their leisure and purchase with personal res,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which would be so much better than mines. That reminds me: sentries get a lot of heat for being generally useless, but people seem to LOVE mines despite costing almost the same amount of res to do even less. A sentry can at least deter or distract a higher lifeform, a mine can't even do that. I see mines as being nothing but free pres denial, I often even suicide on them if there's nothing more useful I can do (IE if I'm about to die as a skulk I'll take a mine or two with me).
Even late game with bile bombs, sentries force a ninja gorge to waste valuable time bileing the sentries over the power node or phasegate, or else waste valuable HP ignoring them until marines show up to finish the gorge. Maybe at 20 res they are a bit overpriced for that effect, but it's still not completely useless.
Comments
Hotkeys would make this tactic much more viable and fun. By that I mean being about to assign each Shift to a key like control groups in Starcraft and then being able to cycle through them while looking at the place you want to set the whips. If there is already a hotkey button I missed let me know... it would really help my horrible command skills.
Problem with that is you need to cyst into the base to make that work, and aside from that the cost of the whips is ridiculous. For 2 1/2 of them you can just drop an onos egg, which in the right hands is far more effective.
Do we consider the 2 zero cost marines killing the onos as mathematically erronous?
I mean that's pretty much what we're all saying. But I don't think anyone is saying don't build turrets for fun or don't experiment. What we're saying is, it shouldn't be the first thing you build. And when you do build them don't expect fantastic results.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference here is that you should just try to answer the question asked, not that you should just drop on people that they don't work and are a waste of res.
There will be occasions where I will build them even vs. good teams to cover a forward pressure from an aggressive PG. They DO slow skulks down a bit when placed in an inward facing triangle, and that can buy you time to get more marines to the fight. I also build them in my base if I'm sitting on enough res to do so because it forces a gorge (usually) to deal with them quickly while my marines are out hive-sniping.
My point is that most experienced comms won't build SG's, we all know this by now... (I mean, its probably the most commonly spouted common-sense rule on the forums) but the OP was asking how to place them, not IF to place them. I'm just saying, answer the questions the OP asked rather than showing off your l337 creds.
but its impossible to really defend anything with them, you cant ocver all sides of an extractor. If the radius was larger for turret palcementy around a battery then i could see them being a little more useful.
Do we consider the 2 zero cost marines killing the onos as mathematically erronous?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Math is always needed!
Seriously though if an onos gets taken down by 2 marines with no upgrades, that's a pretty huge loss. That's a completely different situation though.
There will be occasions where I will build them even vs. good teams to cover a forward pressure from an aggressive PG. They DO slow skulks down a bit when placed in an inward facing triangle, and that can buy you time to get more marines to the fight. I also build them in my base if I'm sitting on enough res to do so because it forces a gorge (usually) to deal with them quickly while my marines are out hive-sniping.
My point is that most experienced comms won't build SG's, we all know this by now... (I mean, its probably the most commonly spouted common-sense rule on the forums) but the OP was asking how to place them, not IF to place them. I'm just saying, answer the questions the OP asked rather than showing off your l337 creds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary - I'm certainly no l337 gamer, but the very best answer to the question: how should I place sentries? is: Don't. That's not trying to be clever or seem l337, it's trying to help someone out!! If you're a seasoned comm who's using sentries in an attacking role to help what must be a pretty awesome team (if you can trust them with the sentries!), then you won't need to ask the question.
By all means start up a server and play about with sentries, but anything - ANYTHING - that encourages pub comms to use sentries in anger should be actively discouraged.
Placement is not to cover themselves*, they are expandable, but to inflict damage to incoming skulks.
A corner is a good place for the battery.
*Why would you buy sentries to cover .. sentries ?
Sentries could use some boost in forms of upgrades so if you use some they still have some effect throughout the game.
Like upgrading rate of fire (increase damage), or angle, or some protection to decrrease bile damage.
No need to make them more than what they are supposed to be : a bit of support.
If we reduced the initial investment in this way we might possibly see some sentry use. I think it would be interesting to tinker with so we could at least see some variety in marine strategies. There has got to be some price point at which early sentries will become attractive, because they ARE helpful for defending positions in conjunction with marines against skulks.
Which would be so much better than mines. That reminds me: sentries get a lot of heat for being generally useless, but people seem to LOVE mines despite costing almost the same amount of res to do even less. A sentry can at least deter or distract a higher lifeform, a mine can't even do that. I see mines as being nothing but free pres denial, I often even suicide on them if there's nothing more useful I can do (IE if I'm about to die as a skulk I'll take a mine or two with me).
Even late game with bile bombs, sentries force a ninja gorge to waste valuable time bileing the sentries over the power node or phasegate, or else waste valuable HP ignoring them until marines show up to finish the gorge. Maybe at 20 res they are a bit overpriced for that effect, but it's still not completely useless.