Aiming is (too) hard
Evil.Iguana
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166120Members
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166120Members
<div class="IPBDescription">On the subject of hitting skulks with bullets</div>It's no secret that Aliens are winning a lot more matches than marines are. I think the primary underlying cause of this is that marine players are simply losing to aliens in combat more than they should. The reason for that, in turn, is that marines are having serious trouble hitting the small rapidly moving targets that make up most of the alien team.
It would be tempting to say that this problem will correct itself as marine players get better at the game, but I do not believe this to be the case. I will just use myself as an example. I am an above average action gamer, who has been playing NS2 since launch. I still do poorly as a marine because, quite frankly, the degree of skill needed to reliably hit an evading skulk is just beyond what I, or the average gamer, possesses.
At the same time, I cannot say that this means that the marines are truly underpowered, because if you do happen to be someone who possesses abnormally good reflexes, you can exploit the marines' mathematical advantage to the point that even equally skilled aliens cannot touch you. In gamer parlance, the skill ceiling for marines is higher than that for aliens. This is due to the fact that there is an absolute limit to how fast one can move, but essentially no limit on how fast you can change your view direction.
The solution that is called for, then, is one that brings the level of skill needed by marines down to something that most players can aspire to. Simply adjusting marine weapon damage until the statistics show they win 50% of the battles would result in players with above average aim being able to kill whole groups of aliens before they can even get to melee range. What is needed is a way to make the average marine more deadly without boosting the deadliness of people with freakishly good reflexes.
I think the answer here is to combine a damage increase* with drastically reduced accuracy. I'd like to see cone of fire for ARs and shotguns doubled in radius from what they currently are. The downside to this change would be an increase in the randomness of damage, which would need to be mitigated by a few other changes. For the rifle I would double the rate of fire and mag size for a more consistent random dispersion of shots. For the shotgun I would probably also increase the number of pellets, but more importantly I would like to see a semi-fixed spread. By semi-fixed I mean that each pellet would have a certain vector it would travel away from the player on, with a certain degree of deviation from that. The idea here is to make shotgun blasts more consistent while preventing players from using custom crosshairs to take advantage of a 100% predictable pattern as they did in NS1.
I expect that some people will object to this suggestion on the grounds that it is always a mistake to reduce the return on applied skill. I disagree with this assertion. If you wanted to really increase amount of skill it takes to play NS2, you could implement a QWOP style control scheme where you manually move each leg in order to move your character. Doing this would undoubtedly make the game more challenging, but it would not make it more fun for pretty much anyone.
How much to reward players for their talents, or punish them for their lack of said, is a decision every designer has to make. In the case of NS2, where you have two very different teams playing against one another, it is especially important to ensure that you treat both sides equally in this area.
*Increasing damage is necessary as simply increasing the cone of fire would not result in a higher percentage of bullets hitting. The accuracy decrease counteracts the effect of this on people who are already able to hit most of their shots.
It would be tempting to say that this problem will correct itself as marine players get better at the game, but I do not believe this to be the case. I will just use myself as an example. I am an above average action gamer, who has been playing NS2 since launch. I still do poorly as a marine because, quite frankly, the degree of skill needed to reliably hit an evading skulk is just beyond what I, or the average gamer, possesses.
At the same time, I cannot say that this means that the marines are truly underpowered, because if you do happen to be someone who possesses abnormally good reflexes, you can exploit the marines' mathematical advantage to the point that even equally skilled aliens cannot touch you. In gamer parlance, the skill ceiling for marines is higher than that for aliens. This is due to the fact that there is an absolute limit to how fast one can move, but essentially no limit on how fast you can change your view direction.
The solution that is called for, then, is one that brings the level of skill needed by marines down to something that most players can aspire to. Simply adjusting marine weapon damage until the statistics show they win 50% of the battles would result in players with above average aim being able to kill whole groups of aliens before they can even get to melee range. What is needed is a way to make the average marine more deadly without boosting the deadliness of people with freakishly good reflexes.
I think the answer here is to combine a damage increase* with drastically reduced accuracy. I'd like to see cone of fire for ARs and shotguns doubled in radius from what they currently are. The downside to this change would be an increase in the randomness of damage, which would need to be mitigated by a few other changes. For the rifle I would double the rate of fire and mag size for a more consistent random dispersion of shots. For the shotgun I would probably also increase the number of pellets, but more importantly I would like to see a semi-fixed spread. By semi-fixed I mean that each pellet would have a certain vector it would travel away from the player on, with a certain degree of deviation from that. The idea here is to make shotgun blasts more consistent while preventing players from using custom crosshairs to take advantage of a 100% predictable pattern as they did in NS1.
I expect that some people will object to this suggestion on the grounds that it is always a mistake to reduce the return on applied skill. I disagree with this assertion. If you wanted to really increase amount of skill it takes to play NS2, you could implement a QWOP style control scheme where you manually move each leg in order to move your character. Doing this would undoubtedly make the game more challenging, but it would not make it more fun for pretty much anyone.
How much to reward players for their talents, or punish them for their lack of said, is a decision every designer has to make. In the case of NS2, where you have two very different teams playing against one another, it is especially important to ensure that you treat both sides equally in this area.
*Increasing damage is necessary as simply increasing the cone of fire would not result in a higher percentage of bullets hitting. The accuracy decrease counteracts the effect of this on people who are already able to hit most of their shots.
Comments
Aliens are already incredibly weak in terms of how many bullets they can actually take. I think a skulk dies in like 15 bullets or so at the start of the game, which is less than a second of on-target shooting. They also die in one shotgun blast at close range.
Making guns less accurate but more powerful would basically shift the balance from player skill to massed players. More lead downrange = more chances of hitting every space = more chance of winning, rather than better aim = better chance of hitting the alien = more chance of winning. Irritating as it is sometimes, I think that winning being determined almost entirely by who has more players would be more annoying than being determined by who has better control/performance.
There are already lots of games where your chance at victory or loss is determined by chance, by who sees who first, by who gets the random, incredibly powerful bullet hit first. It doesn't seem helpful to make NS2 more like those other games, from a marketability standpoint or from a gameplay standpoint. It'd become a not-as-good knockoff of existing games, rather than its own game which it currently is, regardless of how well it actually plays. Your problem would go from 'doesn't play great' to 'doesn't play as good as this other game'. Which doesn't seem as though it would solve anything.
I managed to get a decent ping and framerate on a recent game and I actually found it greatly improved my ability to play, if they can get that for everyone it might solve some of the issues you're having. It was certainly easier in NS1 because it ran better.
It'd be great to test this out as a mod.
A skulk dies in 9 bullets. 14 with carapace. (at weapons 0)
I was going to say 9, but I thought that might only be with weapons upgrades. Really that low though? Yeowch.
Well unless your really lucky or kill the skulk very fast(within 38 shots full auto I think), A passive heath tick will go bye (Gaining one HP) making it 10 at level 0 for the most part.....
So Basically skulks die in 10,9,8,7 shots without cara
And its something like 14,12,11,11 with cara
Just an FYI
Here's the problem with marines that I see recently:
1) Traveling too close together
2) Hanging out at doorways, too afraid to go in the room
3) Tunnel vision/deafness
4) The commander not dropping health packs
How to fix:
1) Straggle out a bit, cover the guy in front of ya! He's basically the bait. Bio-balling doesn't work well in NS2.
2) For ######s sake, if I leeroy into a room, I expect the other 6 marines to actually get in the room and cover me. Check each corner, secure the room! Don't stand there and admire the engineering miracle of a door frame. Marines need <i>haste</i>, and every second wasted is another second given to Aliens, and before you know it we'll have another whine fest to the tune of 'ONOS OP QQ NERF NOW PLS'
3) Not everyone needs to build at once. We still need people covering the entrances to the room! And as for sound cues, that loud metallic clanging is actually the sound of an alien's rumbling tummy. I swear some people really need to turn off the blaring zelda wubsteps and listen to the environment. Become one with nature, and defy her demands of becoming alien lunch.
4) Early game is the most important for marines, and they usually lose the early game because the commander refuses to drop health packs. If the footmen are giving decent results, a few health kits would be a great investment before you can drop armories and phase gates.
As for changes that UWE can do, they really need to remove the speed cap on walking backwards. If they made walking backwards any slower we'd be trotting forwards for ######s sake.
Also I don't think this is a problem <b>at all</b> anyway. The reason marines lose so often is due almost entirely to the Onos in every single game. In the marine vs skulk stages of a game, aliens are being pushed back constantly if anything. Its when the Onos comes out that the game inevitably turns around, regardless of how well the marines were doing up until that point. And I don't think anyone is having troubles hitting the Onos.
Total agree with your points, but just wanted to +1 for this especially.
Its hilariously stupid when 4-5 marines are pushing a corridor, then stop at an entrance. So you come from the rear of the pack to the front to "leeroy" into said room, baiting the ambushing skulks out, and your teammates IGNORE YOU. Oh they can see you, hear your character move and are confirming their receptivity to your yelling over mic, but they'll be damned if they are going to cover you.
Happens far too often, id cry if it weren't so laughable.
Its hilariously stupid when 4-5 marines are pushing a corridor, then stop at an entrance. So you come from the rear of the pack to the front to "leeroy" into said room, baiting the ambushing skulks out, and your teammates IGNORE YOU. Oh they can see you, hear your character move and are confirming their receptivity to your yelling over mic, but they'll be damned if they are going to cover you.
Happens far too often, id cry if it weren't so laughable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's even worse when it's your 20 res shotgun that you lose, and the other guys eventually notice the shotgun and take turns going in and dying while trying to get their greedy little hands on your shotgun.
wat.
This is patently false. Bullets are hitscan (therefore instantaneous). As far as I know, hits are also recorded clientside, so latency doesn't factor for a miss if you hit the target from your point of view.
Hits are client side predicted yeah, but the server still compares that data with what it sees. If the client side prediction is wrong you wont see the damage numbers pop up. However you do see the client side predicted effects like blood splats, alien model twitching, alien pain sounds and the crosshair hit icon, which are very confusing, but they do happen from time to time :(
Sooner or later hit registration will get fixed, and that's when we should be looking closer at marine/skulk battles. It's pointless to change anything in that regard now until the hit reg issue is resolved.
I might have agreed with this when I first started playing, though even when I am loosing as a marine I still have a better ratio than
most aliens. There are a few tips I can show you in game to increase your suvibability. I generally stick with the LMG as it is free and you arent limited to all or nothing. Even with a shotty u got to lead a bit more than you normally think. Also a good alien will do what they can to get in close to by moving and using cover
1) dont go alone
2) dont all use the same weapon if possible
3) stay about 10 ft from each other
4) more than 3 people can get in the way in small areas
5) if holding be in oposite corners without obstructions
6) never leave base before topping off
7) ask for armories in stratigic places
8) shoot your friends skulk first
9) prioritize your targets
10) hang to one side and your friend to another (stagger)
11) spend your rez on mines
12) be at a higher elevation than the enemy is at.
13) ...
Here's the problem with marines that I see recently:
1) Traveling too close together
2) Hanging out at doorways, too afraid to go in the room
3) Tunnel vision/deafness
4) The commander not dropping health packs
How to fix:
1) Straggle out a bit, cover the guy in front of ya! He's basically the bait. Bio-balling doesn't work well in NS2.
2) For ######s sake, if I leeroy into a room, I expect the other 6 marines to actually get in the room and cover me. Check each corner, secure the room! Don't stand there and admire the engineering miracle of a door frame. Marines need <i>haste</i>, and every second wasted is another second given to Aliens, and before you know it we'll have another whine fest to the tune of 'ONOS OP QQ NERF NOW PLS'
3) Not everyone needs to build at once. We still need people covering the entrances to the room! And as for sound cues, that loud metallic clanging is actually the sound of an alien's rumbling tummy. I swear some people really need to turn off the blaring zelda wubsteps and listen to the environment. Become one with nature, and defy her demands of becoming alien lunch.
4) Early game is the most important for marines, and they usually lose the early game because the commander refuses to drop health packs. If the footmen are giving decent results, a few health kits would be a great investment before you can drop armories and phase gates.
As for changes that UWE can do, they really need to remove the speed cap on walking backwards. If they made walking backwards any slower we'd be trotting forwards for ######s sake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't give enough +1's to this post.
Aiming isn't hard, people are just terrible at doing what they should.
How many times did I bait aliens on purpose for my teamates to shoot at them just to get killed because they couldn't aim for squat. And even then, I'd be fine with diying in the process if they actually killed it afterwards, but most of the time nope. They just die next.
I for one have never left an alien get out alive when it attacked a teamate I was supposed to cover.
I can get kills at 20 fps. I can get many more with 60fps. If im trying to aim at really good skulks, that 40fps makes *all* the difference.
Anyone who doesnt perform much better at 60 than at 20 is probably just:
1) Always being the cover, never bait
2) Always weapon3 vs non-leap non-celerity skulk
3) Killing really nub aliens
4) Only shooting at onos
5) etc
Sooner or later hit registration will get fixed, and that's when we should be looking closer at marine/skulk battles. It's pointless to change anything in that regard now until the hit reg issue is resolved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well thats my problem with the game :P - if i burst with the assault rifle i do need about 9-15 shots for a skulk - if i spray on it full automaticly it will take about 40 bullets to kill a single even if he directly runs forward to get me without dodging :>
Also the Hitreg is a bit hardly deelayed - about 100 MS for buildings till dmg pops up or something.
May the game acts like Counter Strike Global Offensive (zero hitreg on Tick64 and at 128 ownage)? dunno will see
But about the aimingstuff hmm .. just gota say : thats how a skillbased game should look like. no random spray with guns or some other luck/noobstuff
This is a <b><u>brilliant </u></b>idea and should be implemented immediately.
What I think we need instead is being able to 'select' your target (Maybe via tab, or another hotkey for closest target) , then all your shots will hit it.
In return skulks can get a passive dodge ability which causes 30 % of shots to miss automatically
They can also run around and scavenge leather pieces and craft an entire set of equipment which increases it to 50% passive dodging.
What I think we need instead is being able to 'select' your target (Maybe via tab, or another hotkey for closest target) , then all your shots will hit it.
In return skulks can get a passive dodge ability which causes 30 % of shots to miss automatically
They can also run around and scavenge leather pieces and craft an entire set of equipment which increases it to 50% passive dodging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This thread is getting better and better. Another thing which I find very difficult to get used to, and quite elitist in fact, is how everything moves around. It can get quite disorienting.
In my experience, point and click adventure games are by far the best genre, and are highly enjoyable for rookie and veteran alike. I think NS2 would be a perfect game to port to this genre. Simply clicking entrances and exits would lead you from hive room to hive room, and skulks could be shot by spotting them and clicking on them.
In my experience, point and click adventure games are by far the best genre, and are highly enjoyable for rookie and veteran alike. I think NS2 would be a perfect game to port to this genre. Simply clicking entrances and exits would lead you from hive room to hive room, and skulks could be shot by spotting them and clicking on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a great idea, but if we take Myst as an example, many players will complain of "filler" frames taking up most of their time.
As such, I suggest a "zip" feature as seen as an added option in Myst, where you can click a special part of the screen and skip across several frames and get to where you want to go. This will ensure that experienced players will be rewarded justly for their skills.