Question to UWE: how much better can we expect performance to get in the future?

IdlerayIdleray Join Date: 2012-10-04 Member: 161464Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 154 Advanced user
I understand that throughout NS2's development big strides in performance improvements have been made. However, my greatest fear is that they will become fewer and more difficult to squeeze out of the alleged limitations of the design choices.

Do the limitations with the LUA scripting mean that performance optimizations are now at a bottleneck?

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Comments

  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members Posts: 626
    QUOTE (Idleray @ Dec 28 2012, 01:06 PM) »
    I understand that throughout NS2's development big strides in performance improvements have been made. However, my greatest fear is that they will become fewer and more difficult to squeeze out of the alleged limitations of the design choices.

    Do the limitations with the LUA scripting mean that performance optimizations are now at a bottleneck?


    Game is pretty well optimized if you ask me...

    I only run a Radeon 4850 and I was expecting much worse FPS than what I'm getting. I average about 45 fps on a 24 person server.
    I also have a Phenom 2 x4 @ 3.4ghz


    Hell it's pretty close to what I get on TF2 on 32 person servers, but it is MUCH less intensive for graphics.......ie. no dynamic infestation, etc....
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members Posts: 7,661
    QUOTE (Res @ Dec 28 2012, 12:58 PM) »
    Game is pretty well optimized if you ask me...

    I only run a Radeon 4850 and I was expecting much worse FPS than what I'm getting. I average about 45 fps on a 24 person server.
    I also have a Phenom 2 x4 @ 3.4ghz


    Hell it's pretty close to what I get on TF2 on 32 person servers, but it is MUCH less intensive for graphics.......ie. no dynamic infestation, etc....


    I think the problem is that the increase of performance on faster rigs is plateaued for some reason. I keep hearing people with terrible computers playing this on ultra everything and pulling 90 consistant fps, meanwhile my machine ([email protected], gtx 680, 8gb ram, 120gb SSD) and dipping below 30 during fights with some bells and whistles OFF. Everyone with a beefier computer is complaining more than those with less speedy machines.

    Regardless, FPS below 60 for me is unacceptable anyway. If I wanted to watch a slideshow I'd open Powerpoint.
    user posted image

    #BATTERY
  • statikgstatikg Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members Posts: 427 Fully active user
    Take it easy there pro, the human eye can barely distinguish the difference between 30-60fps. As long as your minimum fps is 30 you will experience maybe a 1% disadvantage.
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members Posts: 7,661
    QUOTE (statikg @ Dec 28 2012, 01:10 PM) »
    Take it easy there pro, the human eye can barely distinguish the difference between 30-60fps. As long as your minimum fps is 30 you will experience maybe a 1% disadvantage.



    I knew someone would post this myth. No offense but if you can't tell the difference of smoothness between 30 and 60fps, great, that's good for you. I however, I can see and feel the difference, everyones eyes are different. Yours may not be as good as mine as detecting fine motion, you may have better vision than me at distance. Everyones different. Go do a little research on the human eye FPS perception myth.
    user posted image

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  • weeschweeweeschwee Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75031Members Posts: 80
    QUOTE (statikg @ Dec 28 2012, 11:10 AM) »
    Take it easy there pro, the human eye can barely distinguish the difference between 30-60fps. As long as your minimum fps is 30 you will experience maybe a 1% disadvantage.



    Unfortunately, games do not run at an even 30 or 60 fps constantly. The frame rate fluctuates constantly. And video games have a lot more movement than movies or tv shows. There is a lot more to process and a lot more happening. If a game ran without any fluctuations while the player is running, turning, shooting, etc. than maybe you wouldn't notice a difference in frame rate above 30.
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members Posts: 518 Fully active user
    QUOTE (statikg @ Dec 28 2012, 06:10 PM) »
    Take it easy there pro, the human eye can barely distinguish the difference between 30-60fps. As long as your minimum fps is 30 you will experience maybe a 1% disadvantage.


    30fps feels like moving through sludge and 60 like walking on air. 1 swipe of your mouse and you can feel the difference.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    edited December 2012
    QUOTE (statikg @ Dec 28 2012, 01:10 PM) »
    Take it easy there pro, the human eye can barely distinguish the difference between 30-60fps. As long as your minimum fps is 30 you will experience maybe a 1% disadvantage.


    I don't know why people keep claiming stuff like this. You're totally wrong. For instance, playing images at a rate as low as 20 fps is enough to obtain the sense of motion, but it doesn't mean that anything above 20 fps is redundant. You can perceive images at a much faster rates and are able to distinguish different levels of smoothness depending on the fps. Seeing something at 60 fps will appear much more smoother than 30 fps. The difference is actually immense when you're playing a fast paced shooter.

    http://boallen.com/fps-compare.html
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    Switching from 75 hz to 85 hz on my old CRT seemed to make a decent improvement in smoothness in NS1. And that's all without any increased responsiviness and such that an actual FPS increase provides.

    Also, as far as I've understood, NS2 has a lot of microstudders and such that make the FPS seem less sufficient even if the average per second is seemingly high enough. Rendering 100 frames per second will do very little good if it's not spread out somewhat even within that one second time frame.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    That is actually the reason I have V-Sync set to double. I'd rather have a constant tiny input lag then a hugely diverse FPS 100-40 vs 60-40 as an example. Especially wit the microstutter in there, at higher FPS it is more noticeable...

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  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 5,161 Fully active user
    QUOTE (statikg @ Dec 28 2012, 10:10 AM) »
    Take it easy there pro, the human eye can barely distinguish the difference between 30-60fps. As long as your minimum fps is 30 you will experience maybe a 1% disadvantage.

    do you really believe that NS2's performance is at an acceptable state for gameplay? dipping from 120fps to 30fps is not "barely distinguishable", it is quite literally unplayable.
    Q: Is your goal to make everything picked the same amount of times? (from j.walsh)
    A: I don't think about it that way exactly. Sure it's good if there is a nice distribution and that is something to work towards, but really the goal in DotA's development is, first and foremost, to make the gameplay quality the best it can be. It is the combination of all the heroes, items and mechanics together that makes DotA what it is and not the individual elements alone. Sometimes that means certain things are carefully adjusted to be more frequent than others, sometimes it doesn't, but ultimately the main judge of a game's quality is not in some artificial balance metric, but in the overall gameplay quality and depth that it has.
  • ToothyToothy ir-regard-less Join Date: 2003-02-12 Member: 13447Members, Constellation Posts: 335 Fully active user
    the game can and does drop to 40fps on anyone's computer, even very modern ones, if they claim otherwise they are kidding themselves.
    60fps is an absolute minimum for anybody who wants to enjoy being good at ns2 and aiming in it.
    for what it's worth, tf2 is very badly optimised so not really a good comparison. computers that get around 60fps in ns2 average can get 300fps in other source games, even tf2 at a stretch. they can get 100fps constant in any ue3 game, and most likely 100fps constant in bf3.
    the main difference is that if they want more fps, they can lower their settings in most of those games. lowering settings does not really improve performance much in ns2 unless your card is slow.
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  • luminalumina Join Date: 2012-06-15 Member: 153300Members Posts: 154
    edited December 2012
    QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Dec 28 2012, 12:14 PM) »
    I knew someone would post this myth. No offense but if you can't tell the difference of smoothness between 30 and 60fps, great, that's good for you. I however, I can see and feel the difference, everyones eyes are different. Yours may not be as good as mine as detecting fine motion, you may have better vision than me at distance. Everyones different. Go do a little research on the human eye FPS perception myth.


    Almost all console games, movies, and TV shows run between 24 and 30 fps. You can't see the difference, sorry. What you are seeing, is the jumping fps. If your fps isn't steady, it won't look smooth.
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members Posts: 518 Fully active user
    QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 28 2012, 08:38 PM) »
    Almost all console games, movies, and TV shows run between 24 and 30 fps. You can't see the difference, sorry. What you are seeing, is the jumping fps. If your fps isn't steady, it won't look smooth.


    Start the game, (in console) cheats 1, alltech, give fade

    maxfps 30

    look around... blink, shadowstep

    maxfps 60

    repeat movements


  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 5,161 Fully active user
    QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 28 2012, 12:38 PM) »
    Almost all console games, movies, and TV shows run between 24 and 30 fps. You can't see the difference, sorry. What you are seeing, is the jumping fps. If your fps isn't steady, it won't look smooth.

    are you honestly saying that because TVs are at 24 FPS and therefore look fine, then you should be able to play on 24 FPS?

    television and movies don't require user input from a mouse and keyboard and don't update their picture accordingly

    why is this even being argued this is seriously a myth from 2000 are we back in the stone ages

    Q: Is your goal to make everything picked the same amount of times? (from j.walsh)
    A: I don't think about it that way exactly. Sure it's good if there is a nice distribution and that is something to work towards, but really the goal in DotA's development is, first and foremost, to make the gameplay quality the best it can be. It is the combination of all the heroes, items and mechanics together that makes DotA what it is and not the individual elements alone. Sometimes that means certain things are carefully adjusted to be more frequent than others, sometimes it doesn't, but ultimately the main judge of a game's quality is not in some artificial balance metric, but in the overall gameplay quality and depth that it has.
  • luminalumina Join Date: 2012-06-15 Member: 153300Members Posts: 154
    edited December 2012
    QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 28 2012, 02:47 PM) »
    are you honestly saying that because TVs are at 24 FPS and therefore look fine, then you should be able to play on 24 FPS?

    television and movies don't require user input from a mouse and keyboard and don't update their picture accordingly

    why is this even being argued this is seriously a myth from 2000 are we back in the stone ages


    So no console game looks smooth? Console game don't require user input?

    What a well thought out response! lol...
  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,875 Advanced user
    QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 28 2012, 03:38 PM) »
    Almost all console games, movies, and TV shows run between 24 and 30 fps. You can't see the difference, sorry. What you are seeing, is the jumping fps. If your fps isn't steady, it won't look smooth.


    Bullsnot. I don't even believe you can't see the difference.

    On a CRT at low resolutions you can easily crank the refresh rate very high. Even the difference between say 85 Hz and 160 Hz is night and day.

    Even with motion blur(AKA a movie camera) 30 FPS looks jittery and forces the movie production people to pan slowly and otherwise adjust to the barely acceptable framerate.


  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 5,161 Fully active user
    QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 28 2012, 12:52 PM) »
    So no console game looks smooth? Console game don't require user input?

    What a well thought out response? lol...

    I cannot speak to the the enjoyment of console gamers, I have less than zero experience on the matter.

    there really is no point in arguing this because your skill level is too low to notice the difference, therefore you believe there is minimal difference.

    I don't mean this to sound insulting, it is not.
    Q: Is your goal to make everything picked the same amount of times? (from j.walsh)
    A: I don't think about it that way exactly. Sure it's good if there is a nice distribution and that is something to work towards, but really the goal in DotA's development is, first and foremost, to make the gameplay quality the best it can be. It is the combination of all the heroes, items and mechanics together that makes DotA what it is and not the individual elements alone. Sometimes that means certain things are carefully adjusted to be more frequent than others, sometimes it doesn't, but ultimately the main judge of a game's quality is not in some artificial balance metric, but in the overall gameplay quality and depth that it has.
  • UnderwhelmedUnderwhelmed DemoDetective #?! Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58026Members, Constellation Posts: 756 Advanced user
    QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 28 2012, 03:38 PM) »
    Almost all console games, movies, and TV shows run between 24 and 30 fps. You can't see the difference, sorry. What you are seeing, is the jumping fps. If your fps isn't steady, it won't look smooth.

    better tell that to peter jackson and the hobbit in 48fps and all the people who got a 120hz monitor and notice a difference
    QUOTE (SmoodCroozn)
    Don't bother posting, because it seems to me, you don't even know how the game works.

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  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,875 Advanced user
    QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 28 2012, 03:52 PM) »
    So no console game looks smooth?


    I've never seen a console game that looks smooth, no. There are console games that target 60 FPS, but I don't play enough console games to have come across one.

    QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 28 2012, 03:52 PM) »
    Console game don't require user input?


    Console games use a rubbish input device, especially for games that require fast and precise movement. That's why console FPSs ship with auto aim and cross-hair leading.

  • lwflwf Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58311Members, Constellation Posts: 486 Fully active user
    edited December 2012
    QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 28 2012, 09:52 PM) »
    So no console game looks smooth? Console game don't require user input?

    What a well thought out response? lol...

    Correct, most console FPS games with heavy graphics are horrible. However doesn't matter because the audience is casual enough to play FPS games on a console and that says a lot.

    I can feel the difference immediately when dropping under 60 FPS in NS2 and it feels terrible, you lose control and scoring hits becomes largely luck based, especially as a marine when up against something smaller than an onos.


    Edit: That is not to say I usually get less than 60 FPS. Most of the time it's fine on 16 player servers or less.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • luminalumina Join Date: 2012-06-15 Member: 153300Members Posts: 154
    QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 28 2012, 02:57 PM) »
    I cannot speak to the the enjoyment of console gamers, I have less than zero experience on the matter.

    there really is no point in arguing this because your skill level is too low to notice the difference, therefore you believe there is minimal difference.

    I don't mean this to sound insulting, it is not.


    LOL again.

    You don't even know who I am. This fact makes your post pretty stupid.
  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 5,161 Fully active user
    edited December 2012
    QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 28 2012, 01:02 PM) »
    LOL again.

    You don't even know who I am. This fact makes your post pretty stupid.

    it's irrelevant; your points have been countered and you are clearly not in a higher skill tier if you find 24FPS acceptable gameplay

    edit: I am still interested in the original question of this thread. how much of the current performance is close to projected final performance?
    Q: Is your goal to make everything picked the same amount of times? (from j.walsh)
    A: I don't think about it that way exactly. Sure it's good if there is a nice distribution and that is something to work towards, but really the goal in DotA's development is, first and foremost, to make the gameplay quality the best it can be. It is the combination of all the heroes, items and mechanics together that makes DotA what it is and not the individual elements alone. Sometimes that means certain things are carefully adjusted to be more frequent than others, sometimes it doesn't, but ultimately the main judge of a game's quality is not in some artificial balance metric, but in the overall gameplay quality and depth that it has.
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members Posts: 626
    edited December 2012
    QUOTE (Toothy @ Dec 28 2012, 04:30 PM) »
    the game can and does drop to 40fps on anyone's computer, even very modern ones, if they claim otherwise they are kidding themselves.
    60fps is an absolute minimum for anybody who wants to enjoy being good at ns2 and aiming in it.
    for what it's worth, tf2 is very badly optimised so not really a good comparison. computers that get around 60fps in ns2 average can get 300fps in other source games, even tf2 at a stretch. they can get 100fps constant in any ue3 game, and most likely 100fps constant in bf3.
    the main difference is that if they want more fps, they can lower their settings in most of those games. lowering settings does not really improve performance much in ns2 unless your card is slow.



    One thing people leave out when they compare FPS in this game to other games, is that this game has far more dynamic entities in action than any other multiplayer FPS game. Add in NS2's infestation in any other game and watch your FPS drop like a rock in those games... It is because they can't handle dynamic entities nearly as well so they don't have very many of them.

    I know this from personal experience from developing maps in various games and the limitations of the number of dynamic entities you could have vs performance.


    Also, I will reiterate what other people have said... if you can't tell the difference between 30 FPS and 60 FPS in a game, then you obviously do not have the wherewithall to notice the difference. For many people that play on a high level, including myself, the difference is very noticeable.

    I can tell exactly when my FPS is dropping by just the feel and look of the screen as I turn my characters view.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members Posts: 708 Fully active user
    QUOTE (statikg @ Dec 28 2012, 01:10 PM) »
    Take it easy there pro, the human eye can barely distinguish the difference between 30-60fps. As long as your minimum fps is 30 you will experience maybe a 1% disadvantage.

    lolnourdumb
    QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Dec 28 2012, 03:07 PM) »
    That is actually the reason I have V-Sync set to double. I'd rather have a constant tiny input lag then a hugely diverse FPS 100-40 vs 60-40 as an example. Especially wit the microstutter in there, at higher FPS it is more noticeable...

    The input lag vsync creates is absolutely unbearable.
    QUOTE (lumina @ Dec 28 2012, 03:38 PM) »
    Almost all console games, movies, and TV shows run between 24 and 30 fps. You can't see the difference, sorry. What you are seeing, is the jumping fps. If your fps isn't steady, it won't look smooth.

    There is a massive difference between 30fps and 60fps... a 100% difference. Any game with a 30fps lock is unbearable (Dark Souls without dsfix).
  • ToothyToothy ir-regard-less Join Date: 2003-02-12 Member: 13447Members, Constellation Posts: 335 Fully active user
    what about games such as planetside 2 which has hundreds of players and vehicles and aircraft and every bullet anyone fires is a projectile and still runs better than ns2?

    also anyone in this thread who is not aware that television and movies are blurred so as to look smooth due to their incredibly low fps should probably refrain from posting thanks
    if you are not aware of this try pausing
    and yes, anyone who cannot tell the difference playing with 30fps and 100fps is in the bottom of the barrel skill tier
    in any game
    image - EUPT
  • sloesloe Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18968Members Posts: 59 Fully active user
    Your "fps" might be 200 (meaning your computer can render 200 frames of the game in one second through the cpu/gpu which if you cut out the logic entirely from the game loop it could reach 100,000+ "fps") BUT your monitor is capped at the frequency/hz (how many times it will physically refresh per second and for a CRT monitor this happens in scanlines as the electron gun fires across the screen causing flicker at lower hz).

    My old NEC FE990 CRT monitor could do 1024x768 at 116hz or 640x480 at 160hz, both of which proved a noticeable difference over 60fps and definitely 30fps. I'm not sure if we know exactly how fast the eye can transmit visual stimuli to the brain and be interpreted as an image (would a slower brain "drop frames"?), but here's a relevent study in PDF or a good ol' bit-tech article.
    dn'sloe / Airplane!
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 709 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Toothy @ Dec 28 2012, 01:10 PM) »
    what about games such as planetside 2 which has hundreds of players and vehicles and aircraft and every bullet anyone fires is a projectile and still runs better than ns2?

    also anyone in this thread who is not aware that television and movies are blurred so as to look smooth due to their incredibly low fps should probably refrain from posting thanks
    if you are not aware of this try pausing
    and yes, anyone who cannot tell the difference playing with 30fps and 100fps is in the bottom of the barrel skill tier
    in any game


    I wouldn't say ps2 runs better than ns2... the dynamic draw distance ######s everything up in big fights. You might get a more consistent frame rate but the way they achieve that frame rate makes the gameplay suffer.

    The US airforce did tests where they would sit a pilot in a dark room and flash an image of a plane on a screen for 1/220th of a second. The pilots were consistently able to identify what type of plane it was. If the human eye can not only recognize, but identify something in only 1/220th of a second... it can definitely tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps.
  • luminalumina Join Date: 2012-06-15 Member: 153300Members Posts: 154
    QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 28 2012, 03:04 PM) »
    it's irrelevant; your points have been countered and you are clearly not in a higher skill tier if you find 24FPS acceptable gameplay

    edit: I am still interested in the original question of this thread. how much of the current performance is close to projected final performance?


    None of my points have been countered and you don't even know what skill is. What exactly is your competitive gaming experience? I need another good laugh, so do tell.

    You kids hear someone say something and believe whatever you want. It is quite funny to see, especially when you don't know what you are talking about. You claim you see stuff like others see ghosts and aliens. You will see what you want.

    Go play Halo. It is locked at 30 fps. If it isn't smooth, you are claiming to see aliens again.
  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 5,161 Fully active user
    edited December 2012
    duel me in quake with your fps capped at 30

    this statement sounds ridiculous because this discussion is getting more and more ridiculous as you blatantly ignore previous posts !
    Q: Is your goal to make everything picked the same amount of times? (from j.walsh)
    A: I don't think about it that way exactly. Sure it's good if there is a nice distribution and that is something to work towards, but really the goal in DotA's development is, first and foremost, to make the gameplay quality the best it can be. It is the combination of all the heroes, items and mechanics together that makes DotA what it is and not the individual elements alone. Sometimes that means certain things are carefully adjusted to be more frequent than others, sometimes it doesn't, but ultimately the main judge of a game's quality is not in some artificial balance metric, but in the overall gameplay quality and depth that it has.
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members Posts: 1,866 Advanced user
    edited December 2012
    QUOTE (statikg @ Dec 28 2012, 01:10 PM) »
    Take it easy there pro, the human eye can barely distinguish the difference between 30-60fps. As long as your minimum fps is 30 you will experience maybe a 1% disadvantage.



    Really? Can barely distinguish bewteen different FPS rates?
    Auto correct, I am tired of your shirt!
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