Why are *personal* res EXOs tied to command chairs?
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">Yet personal res Onos are not.</div>I was asked this in-game by a 'rookie', and it's a good question.
With the Kharaa, the Onos is only tied to 3 hives for the Khamm to drop an Onos egg. A player can save his res and buy an Onos regardless of the alien hive progress. So why is it that the *personal* res EXO is tied to command chairs? I can certainly see it for the ability of the commander to drop an EXO, but if a marine can save up enough res, and the tech has been researched, why can the marine not buy it? The EXO is *not* like a 'weapon' for marines. IOW, it's not like a grenade launcher that is dropped on death and can be picked up. If the EXO is killed it's gone. If the EXO and the Onos are supposed to both be just as deadly, would they not both have similar restrictions?
Or should instead the Onos have the same restriction, and only be purchasable with three hives? This disparity seems counter-intuitive imho.
With the Kharaa, the Onos is only tied to 3 hives for the Khamm to drop an Onos egg. A player can save his res and buy an Onos regardless of the alien hive progress. So why is it that the *personal* res EXO is tied to command chairs? I can certainly see it for the ability of the commander to drop an EXO, but if a marine can save up enough res, and the tech has been researched, why can the marine not buy it? The EXO is *not* like a 'weapon' for marines. IOW, it's not like a grenade launcher that is dropped on death and can be picked up. If the EXO is killed it's gone. If the EXO and the Onos are supposed to both be just as deadly, would they not both have similar restrictions?
Or should instead the Onos have the same restriction, and only be purchasable with three hives? This disparity seems counter-intuitive imho.
Comments
skulk goes in, skulk goes out
you can't explain that
a) Hive takes 3 minutes to build and costs 40 res. CC does not.
b) Marines have CC to CC teleport via phasegates + beacon. Aliens do not.
c) exo is much more powerful than HA and makes 1 base turtle total lame with robo/armoury bunkers. Denies caranos corner advantage. Onos 1 base turtle isn't so much lame.
d) exo > caranos. except for corner caraonos. See c).
e) Leap requires 2 hives but shotgun does not. This is assymetric balance.
He must have cheated in the final exams of playtester qualifications.
Or the times where you are tied on the map but the commander does not go exo until late game while the other team breaks the tiebreaker by rushing with onos before 3 hives. I think they already know and are considering alternatives. The marine's ultimate unit takes more requirements and is not that useful in the long run compared to onos and aliens can whip out an onos at will as long as they have res for it. And the commander not being able to drop dual exo peeves me a bit. I know it will be coming but I just wish I could now. Single exos are not that great compared to something like the fade although it is still pretty good. Just wish we had a more unique alternative for 50 res.
lol
I concur, quite so old chap.
Just for clarification, the "playtester" tag means someone was an NS1 playtester, not a current NS2 playtester.
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically we can blame cory! We need moar icons :P
@OP it will make the end game marine turtle all that harder to beat... Which was hinted at by the peeps in here, add to this all the other things mentioned in here... Well there you have it...
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for proving my point.
<!--quoteo(post=2051468:date=Dec 26 2012, 04:50 PM:name=Ryne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryne @ Dec 26 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something is different between the two teams in this asymmetric game?!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hey yeah... That explains everything right? Anytime anyone questions anything about the game, let's just say "asymmetric game" and tell them to gtfo right? I mean, we can send the developers home now. Any issues that come up can easily be solved by saying "asymmetric game", amirite?
Yuno, people thought the same thing when everyone said that the 6minute Onos was "asymmetrically balanced" and needed no changes. Then along come the developers who yanked that right out of the game when they made it need 3 hives. I guess it wasn't "asymmetric balanced" after all.
The point is, as the person who asked me the question aptly noted, that it seems counter intuitive. What it says is that no matter what happens, so long as an alien saves his res he is <b>guaranteed </b>to be able to obtain the highest level unit in the game. It's not a matter of *IF* but *WHEN*. On the other hand, a marine can be sitting with 100 pres and he may never have a chance to purchase an EXO, regardless of the fact that he can afford it.
So the alien team is granted a guaranteed win after X number of minutes by virtue of pres Onos. The marine team gets no such option.
Yeah, the question still stands, since no one seems to be able to offer any kind of intelligent response. How is this balanced...
Hey yeah... That explains everything right? Anytime anyone questions anything about the game, let's just say "asymmetric game" and tell them to gtfo right? I mean, we can send the developers home now. Any issues that come up can easily be solved by saying "asymmetric game", amirite?
Yuno, people thought the same thing when everyone said that the 6minute Onos was "asymmetrically balanced" and needed no changes. Then along come the developers who yanked that right out of the game when they made it need 3 hives. I guess it wasn't "asymmetric balanced" after all.
The point is, as the person who asked me the question aptly noted, that it seems counter intuitive. What it says is that no matter what happens, so long as an alien saves his res he is <b>guaranteed </b>to be able to obtain the highest level unit in the game. It's not a matter of *IF* but *WHEN*. On the other hand, a marine can be sitting with 100 pres and he may never have a chance to purchase an EXO, regardless of the fact that he can afford it.
So the alien team is granted a guaranteed win after X number of minutes by virtue of pres Onos. The marine team gets no such option.
Yeah, the question still stands, since no one seems to be able to offer any kind of intelligent response. How is this balanced...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wouldnt be an issue if fade/lerk were more viable, and ive been saying that for a year+ why would ANYONE seriously choose the sickly fade over onos.
To get an EXO you need a second command chair (15), an advanced armory (20), prototype lab (40), EXO research (30) and dual mini research (20). That adds up to 125 res before anyone can buy a pres dual-mini EXO. How does that even begin to compare to the cost of a hive? What was next, phase gates and beacon? Yeah, does nothing for an EXO. If anything beacon is an EXO killer. The rest aren't even relevant.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Add to this that none Stomp Onos without second Hive upgrades and the marine team occupying the rest of the map. The 1 Hive Onos with just one Hive upgrade isn't going to do much against that... Where the marines can already turtle/delay very well late game without the brofist EXO...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Honestly, your remark directly above is probably the first in this thread that actually attempts to tackle the question. While you raise an interesting point, to be fair the EXO is affected in a similar way with respect to the arms lab. If the arms lab vanishes that EXO suddenly becomes a whole lot less powerful. The arms lab costs 20 to build and 75 to upgrade to armor 3 to make the EXO viable.
A one-hive cara Onos with a gorge or two in back is still a significant threat though.
End game mass base defense EXO would have way too much firepower to even let aliens into the base. Once again, turtling on one CC is easier to accomplish, compared to turtling on one Hive... Which is the main reason why EXO's aren't allowed end game on one CC...
The sheer amount of end game marine ranged firepower to decimate the final Hive and single Hive Onos is much greater and easier to lay down then the dash to the powernode or CC with EXOs raining down hell on those targets. And in your scenario the armslab still has to go down as well, kinda hard to do with all that bottleneck firepower right. Which is usually at A3+W3 during end game, even one one CC. Even adding the single minigun EXO will only adds to the turtle that is marine, so it doesn't serve the gameplay at all... All it does is the "oh hey I can go EXO" bit, which isn't related to balancing what so ever...
Marines can turtle 1 CC easily if they have exosuits. Alien hive drop easily because alien defenders must enter melee range - so marines will inevitably do damage before dying. Aliens attacking a CC get killed off before dealing a blow.
1 hive onos is also very vunerable - no stomp, missing alot of essential upgrades potentially (no cara? no adrenaline or celerity?). 1 CC exosuit would be running at full power if it were allowed.
If you wanted to make the two sides more symmetrical in this regard, make armour/weapon upgrades limited by CC count and require 2 CC for dual exosuit (to mirror stomp). Instead marines could get all their tech at a crap level with 1 CC. I expect that would cause massive marine rage though.
That makes my head hurt :|
Is it opposite day? There was basically a new thread daily bringing up the 6 minute onos issue from players all across the spectrum new and experienced. It's funny you pick the 6min onos to base your arguement on because it just happened to be the biggest unifying issue in NS2 (besides tasergun and performance).
What's more, the 6 minute onos was actually an example of an attempt at one variable <b>symmetrical balance</b> (something you seem to like), which inevitably turned into <b>symmetrical imbalance</b>. There was nothing assymetrical about it in the narrow context of your 'exo/onos should be symmetrically restricted to 2nd techpoint'.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point is, as the person who asked me the question aptly noted, that it seems counter intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counter-intuitive means a very specific thing - it's not related to balance but rather accessible mechanic design. You can have a balanced, yet counter-intuitive mechanic just as you can have an intuitive, yet imbalanced one.
This is more a problem with user feedback and i'm almost certain you've mis-interpreted what the player was trying to say. It's like removing all the tooltips from starcraft and complaining the mechanics are now unintuitive. e.g. buymenu on protolab should very quickly inform the player about whether the problem is exo not researched or absence of CC. Different icon colours, "2nd CC required text", its not too big an issue.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What it says is that no matter what happens, so long as an alien saves his res he is <b>guaranteed </b>to be able to obtain the highest level unit in the game. It's not a matter of *IF* but *WHEN*. On the other hand, a marine can be sitting with 100 pres and he may never have a chance to purchase an EXO, regardless of the fact that he can afford it.
So the alien team is granted a guaranteed win after X number of minutes by virtue of pres Onos. The marine team gets no such option.
Yeah, the question still stands, since no one seems to be able to offer any kind of intelligent response. How is this balanced...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, Onos is powerful, though i disagree about this over-simplified insta-win premise. Lets play a simple game and pretend Onos is actually the instant win button you seem to think it is. Do you not see that simply tying them to 2 hives doesn't actually change anything? The insta-win button is still there - your implied solution doesn't even solve your contended imbalance. Or rather, the imbalance (if any) is not whether pres onos is symmetrically tied to a techpoint like exo, but that either the timing is too early or its power too great.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is more a problem with user feedback and i'm almost certain you've mis-interpreted what the player was trying to say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, he was actually pretty clear about it. It was only after he mentioned it that it clicked and I said to myself, "Yuno what? He's right". He wasn't QQing or anything of the sort. It wasn't mentioned as a gripe at all. It was more of a "why is the game like this" question.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, Onos is powerful, though i disagree about this over-simplified insta-win premise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Be fair now, I never said "insta-win" at all. What I did say was <i>"so long as an alien saves his res he is guaranteed to be able to obtain the highest level unit in the game. It's not a matter of *IF* but *WHEN*. ... the alien team is granted a guaranteed win after X number of minutes by virtue of pres Onos"</i> Not instant, but by a certain time in the game.
The point is true. If an alien saves his res by not going fade or such, at some point he will be able to afford an Onos, no matter how many hives the aliens have at that moment. If the bulk of the alien team does the same, how are marines going to stop five Onos from rolling their base? If aliens have 5 people with Onos, in say an 8v8 game, then it doesn't matter how many active hives there are. That base will be history, and at best maybe one Onos dies to focus fire. I've seen it happen. It's not hard to pull off. The aliens can do this regardless of map control or hive control. It's simply a matter of time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lets play a simple game and pretend Onos is actually the instant win button you seem to think it is. Do you not see that simply tying them to 2 hives doesn't actually change anything? The insta-win button is still there - your implied solution...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Whoa now, I haven't expressed or implied anything. If you could point out where you see this 'implied solution' in my posts I'd appreciate it, since I don't recall writing anything of the sort.
In fact, I never proposed any 'solution' at all since I was only asking the question. At best I was looking for justification for this apparent questionable aspect of the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The sheer amount of end game marine ranged firepower to decimate the final Hive and single Hive Onos is much greater and easier to lay down then the dash to the powernode or CC with EXOs raining down hell on those targets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's a fair point, but how is that any different from where we are at now?
If marines only have one CC, then it stands to reason that at some point they had a second CC and lost it. (If they never got a second CC, then the point is moot since if the marines could never cap a second CC they wouldn't have enough extractors for any marine to ever get 75 pres before their base was rolled anyway.)
So if the marines had a second CC and lost it, then it's reasonable to assume that many people could have purchased EXOs in that window when they did have it. As such, they could be sitting around in base, just as you suggest, with an EXO. I know this to be true since I've done this. When I hear the second CC under attack, and I know we won't be able to save it, I'll grab whatever EXO I can afford. So it really doesn't matter if I could buy the EXO with one CC or two, since the only way I could afford to buy the EXO would be if we did have two CCs since that is the only circumstance where we could have enough map control to have the extractors needed to give me the res to pay for it.
The question is more how is it justified. Simply trotting out 'asymmetrical balance' doesn't cut it, since something is only 'balanced' until the developers say it is not. Remember, the question is not about comparing relative health/damage of the EXO/Onos at all. The question is about being able to *obtain* the highest level unit in the game.
Heck, one could argue simply from a <b>gameplay </b>standpoint that the EXO shouldn't be as heavily restricted as it is, since in most games you never have any marines going EXO at all. Yet in the screenshots on Steam UWE has been showing off the 'mechs'. (as many people call them in the beginning) UWE has advertised the game and showed off this fancy 'toy', but then when the player gets in game they quickly find that they will hardly ever get a chance to play it. For a moment, let's forget 'balance' for this narrow point - does it make sense to have something like an EXO in the game but then make it so difficult to obtain that most people hardly ever get a chance to play with it? Assuming everything is 'balanced', would it not be better to see the EXO in every game so players have variety?
Why is it that marines can get W3/A3 and every single tech besides jetpack and exo on 1-CC? Why do aliens lose every single lifeform upgrade on 1-Hive? Why do marines get W3/A3 at spawn while aliens need to spend a few seconds evolving upgrades? Why can marines effectively turtle on 1-CC while aliens need to secure 2-Hives? If we're going to play this game then you should have the courtesy of extending the same argument to the other side.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We can make the argument of allowing 1-CC Pres Dual-Exo, but what purpose will that serve tactically besides prolonging games? You want marines to 1-CC to 75 Pres Dual-Exo and eventually push out and somehow win the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Maybe. However the point that I raised above was from a gameplay perspective. What good is the EXO if players hardly ever get a chance to play it? Just look at it from a single player perspective for a moment. You buy this cool game, and you see these 'mechs' that you can play. Are you going to be disappointed when you find out that you can never actually play them? I think most people would.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is it that marines can get W3/A3 and every single tech besides jetpack and exo on 1-CC?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I've always looked at the marine buildings themselves as being the marine 'hives', not the CC. You have the three 'marine hives' in their base, the advanced armory, the prototype lab and the arms lab. Kill any of those 'hives' and the marines are dealt a setback on par with any alien hive. Have you not noticed - <i>coincidentally</i> - that the command chair, the advanced armory and the prototype lab all have roughly the same health/armor stats? Roughly the same build time too.
Kill the advanced armory and there go their advanced weapons. Kill the arms lab and there go their armor and weapon upgrades. Kill the proto lab and there go their advanced devices. Marines have many 'hives', kill any one and you deal them a serious blow.
So many times I see skulks run into the marine base and go after the CC. Of course in 99 times out of 100 they will never kill it before they are killed. Yet when I go into the marine base, I'm going to go after the arms or proto lab. The arms lab has the least amount of health of all the advanced buildings, and while marines will often weld the CC (since they will see the health bar on their screen when it's attacked) they often 'neglect' the arms and proto labs. Take out an arms lab when they are trying to hit a hive and boy does that change things.
So I look at marine buildings as their 'hives', since that is really what has the same impact when killed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we're going to play this game then you should have the courtesy of extending the same argument to the other side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->My interest is with the 'ultimate' weapons in the game, that being the 75 res EXO/Onos.
ALIEN STRAT:
turtle 1 base and have everyone save for onos
To explain, just 2 options:
- Getting 75 pres when still holding your first and only base.
This is almost impossible, because aliens control 70+ % of the map so you have lost by then (assuming you hold 3 - 4 res nodes, it takes 11 - 14,7 minutes to get to 75 pres accoding to 0,125 pres/res node/6 secs). Aliens will have 6+ res nodes then so they have everything available to finish it. So a 1CC exo would be to late.
- Getting 75 pres after holding 50% of the map and being forced back to 1 CC after some battles (this happens al the time, so it's the most likely option).
At this point, the exo's are locked again (the whole point of this topic). It was already said that this is a good thing, because an exo at that point will only delay an already lost game for marines.
Now my big solution for the "I never reach the point where i can play exo"-issue (often heard from new players):
<b>Don't save your pres.</b>
Sounds easy, right? It is. It was said a dozen times that aliens have the easy options evolving and upgrading and everything, but they also pay the price of their pres. Why shouldn't marines use theirs to counter the aliens? Why fight a high tech evolved army with wooden sticks and save your money for 'better days'? Those days won't come (options mentioned above).
There are some very useful unlocks early game for the marines. For example the shotgun and the mines. I know they look expensive for the beginners eye's, and i think that's why mines are rarely used (in pub that is). But a shotgun can be picked up after death (do so, it can make the difference) and mines are extremely useful as well. I assure you that using these upgrades will give you a much better chance in establishing and holding those forward CC's, <i>expanding the game time</i>. With 4+ res nodes you have earned back your mines within 3 minutes.
So here we are, established 1 or 2 forward bases, this time also <i>holding</i> them, and just 3 more minutes away of buying our beloved exo's. Everybody can get the chance to play as an exo, but you have to invest. Nothing wrong with the balance.
True; however, One CC EXOs would allow for marine holdouts in perpetuity. At least you might get those EXOs down with some attrition; and you know they won't be getting more. NS1 was rife with these single CC, single room Marine last stands. I would even go out on a limb and say it was one of the worst parts of the game. Remember back then you could drop a CC anywhere it could fit on the map? You would often see an immediate "relocate to Nano" on Veil. This would often wind up as the only base they had. They would turtle forever in there, taking turns picking up the one GL they had and spamming out the door, Slowly watching the res tick up to get a second GL to spam, then a single HMG, <i>ad nauseum</i>. No one could get in once the vents were welded and you could almost walk on the constant stream of bullets that would come out of the marine base. You could spend a serious amount of time and alien lives just to "get the armory down".
I imagine that this is part of the reason why CCs have to be placed on tech points now and also why you need two tech points to get EXOs. Without the requirement, we are back to NS1 marine stalemates. They were only partly fun for marines and no fun for aliens; even with three hives, you oftentimes could not break that turtle. More of my friends stopped playing NS1 because too many games degenerated into this; the end game was no fun. Allowing EXOs on one CC would be a step backward to the old NS1 stalemates.
If you do the math on how much time it takes a marine to get an EXO with one res node, you'll see that it's just not realistic to expect that marines would be pumping out EXOs when they are cornered into their base. P-res is a whopping 0.125 res every six seconds for each marine (while alive) when the team only has one extractor. That means they are bringing in 1.25 p-res a minute if they don't die. Time to get a 50 res EXO with one res node? 40 minutes. Time to get a 75 res EXO with one res node? 60 minutes. So it's not like they are going to be pumping out the EXOs on one res node. Heck, it takes 20 minutes to get the 25 res needed to buy an advanced weapon with one extractor. While the comm will collect t-res 10 res a minute, he can't use that res to purchase an EXO without the second CC. (something I support btw)
So I'm not sure where the risk of perpetual holdouts with EXOs would come in NS2. Heck, if anything, in NS2 the commander can drop a GL or flamethrower every 150 seconds with just his one lonely CC and advanced armory. Or he can drop armory walls or robototics factories at entrances. That's where I see the game drag out. Individual marines never have resources to buy much of anything once boxed in to their base. They just never get enough res.