No point in trying to explain, need a good video or a series of them. In the majority of servers I see mostly fades that die w+m1ing into groups of marines, so it's accurate to say that most fade players have no idea how to play, and I'm sure at least some of those have posted in this thread. I'd make some videos but I need to get better hardware first.
Always wait for blink first then go Fade. No blink fade is very difficult. Fade is the ultimate hit and run assassin. Swipe, blink in the air, drop down and swipe... always do this when attacking as Fade. If you try to take 3 swipes in a row trying to kill the marine asap then you will surely die many times. The only way to play it is hit and run and be patient.
I love the Fade and the only thing it needs is a viable 3rd ability. Possibly a very slight buff to its armor but otherwise there's no reason to mess with him. Even early Fades without Blink (or even upgrades for that matter, but I usually wouldn't bother without Cara) can still take on a group of Marines from behind and come out clean. It's all about picking your battles.
<!--quoteo(post=2051171:date=Dec 25 2012, 05:32 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 25 2012, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No point in trying to explain, need a good video or a series of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope this will suffice. Made a quick video to illustrate the "swipe while stepping" people are having trouble understanding. (Darwin mode is on, no glancing blows @ armor 3)
Fade movement is fine and you can be elusive as you want, BUT the shotgun vs fade is still in need of some tweaking because it doesn't matter how fast you are, you will get hit. And if you get hit 1 (one) time you have to run because the second one will kill you. More armor would help but that would make the LMG laughable at best.
Increasing and standardizing the shotgun spread would certainly help out and be a step in the right direction (i.e. bigger spread less damage at range while keeping efficacy point blank). Right now it is a laser cannon of death that reaches pretty far. But alas I don't know how to balance the fade v. shotgun, but like I said, it definitely needs tweaking.
I like playing fade. I don't do it with out cara and blink though. I also much prefer it with adren too. I don't think it needs a buff or a nerf.
A more useful 3rd hive ability would be good. Maybe extra shield or health? Fade isn't really that useful in a marine W3 A3 turtle situation.
I find fades main use is sorting out pesky jet packers the would other wise kill your onos. Because of fade's weakness vs structures, it's not good to have more than 1 or 2 on a team imo.
<!--quoteo(post=2050929:date=Dec 24 2012, 11:10 PM:name=Sharp-Shooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sharp-Shooter @ Dec 24 2012, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i play with all life forms as equally as i possibly can, the problems i find with lifeforms are Lerk: i think lerk is ALMOST perfect, it just needs a slight buff, instead of 125/75 with carapace i think the hp needs to be 150 and i think carapace should be 100 if not i think lerk should have ranged spores back with a slight damage nerf, i remember lerks base armor was only 25 and if you got carapace it goes to 75 tripling the base armor, not it only does 50% armor boost after the buff? why? did they forget to add more armor after carapace?
Fade: fade imo needs the biggest buff of all the life forms, im sorry but i find fade very fragile, i cant count how many times me and a fade were going at it 1v1 and i was the one that lived, as long as i had a shotty, i even recall 1v1 with a level 3 LMG i unloaded my clip into him, *some of my shots missed) then pulled out my pistol and finished him, this to me is unacceptable, i laugh at the fact that happened as it was silly, i think fade hp should be 350 just like in the first natural selection, fades are also not very good against exos,
onos: onos imo is almost perfect but i find onos a bit too slow without celerity, i find it so slow to the point where an onos is basically pointless, you run into an empty base to harrass, you head becon, you start to run ASAP, but your slowness will kill you as 5 marines are chasing you down, someimtes getting celerity is not possible, i always get celerity when i go onos if i can
Gorge: i think gorges should be able to build 5 hydras total, or 3 hydras per room or something... 3 hydras doesnt really do any good mid-late game
overall fade is most broken, i remember fades were the ###### now as FPS gets better, marines can aim, fades are a joke if you give a marine with level 3 shotgun who can aim<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never had an issue with fade. Though I find shadow step and blink kind of redundant. I wouldn't mind if blink was a default ability and shadow step was removed entirely.
if you ask me fade is the most broken life form skill cap wise.
true fade never relies on blink, he spams shadowstep people to death like a bouncing ball of death true fade knows how to use the momentum provided by shadowstep and is near omnipresence true fade never overcommits when carapace shell is missing, and never fights while armor is missing true fade prefers celerity over adrenaline and silence over camo
Only problem with fade is this: Steep learning curve with very little room for error. When mastered, fades are awesome, but being able to master a fade is tricky because it's easy to die with one if you don't know what you are doing, and therefore your experience with them is almost guaranteed to be limited due to the resource cost, until you actually do learn to use them proper.
Only thing I can say for fade is to constantly move in and out. Even if you are going against just one marine, if he is actively shooting at you, back away and re-assess your environment. He could be shooting at you rather than running because another marine is just around the corner (though spray and pray is common as well since running from a determined fade is rather pointless.) Also good marines are never alone (aliens, especially fades, get away with playing rambo in many cases) so count on that angle as well.
I think it might be worth reducing fade cost to 40 and increasing onos cost to 80, this would encourage more people to go fade rather than waiting twice as long to go onos, as opposed to just a little longer. Don't know what effect this would have on league play, but I can't imagine it offsetting pub balance that much.
<!--quoteo(post=2052332:date=Dec 28 2012, 11:12 AM:name=AlphaWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AlphaWolf @ Dec 28 2012, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Only problem with fade is this: Steep learning curve with very little room for error. When mastered, fades are awesome, but being able to master a fade is tricky because it's easy to die with one if you don't know what you are doing, and therefore your experience with them is almost guaranteed to be limited due to the resource cost, until you actually do learn to use them proper.
Only thing I can say for fade is to constantly move in and out. Even if you are going against just one marine, if he is actively shooting at you, back away and re-assess your environment. He could be shooting at you rather than running because another marine is just around the corner (though spray and pray is common as well since running from a determined fade is rather pointless.) Also good marines are never alone (aliens, especially fades, get away with playing rambo in many cases) so count on that angle as well.
I think it might be worth reducing fade cost to 40 and increasing onos cost to 80, this would encourage more people to go fade rather than waiting twice as long to go onos, as opposed to just a little longer. Don't know what effect this would have on league play, but I can't imagine it offsetting pub balance that much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mostly agree with this - Fade is VERY deadly when in the hands of a skilled player. Anyone who ######es that "it dies in 2 sg shots" has a point, it should take 3 direct SG shots to kill, but a good fade player will still get a lot of kills before dying.
Decreasing Fade cost will cause servers to be full of Fades. Then everyone will ###### about how overpowered the Fade is.. best thing to do is leave its cost alone but give it enough health to survive an extra SG shot, it shouldn't be possible to kill a 50 res unit in 2 hits even with weapons level 3.
As for the video the OP posted, you got owned because you shadow stepped directly in front of 2 marines with shotguns. . you apparently didn't see the one at your back who you gave a super easy direct SG hit to. The other marine on your right just happen to have decent enough aim to snap to you for another direct SG hit. No carapace ? bye bye.
The best way to learn to fade is to play on combat servers, where you can go fade over and over again, and fight against marines with similar amounts of firepower, so you can get used to fighting against jp/sg marines and survive. I avoided combat for a long time, but the ability to really practice lifeforms is incredibly useful.
Fade needs 50 more hp, at least for starters. Anymore is too much too quickly. The lerk IMO needs less HP if its supposed to be a support/scouting class, its current hp really allows it to make mistakes without penalty. Onos is too powerful, but the same can be said about exo's in the correct situation, and thats really more of a game design decision.. Onos/Exo IMO need to be less powerful to bring them more in line as high tier units, that dont cause most lower units to loose effectiveness. Exos are not quite the stomping unit the onos is because of all the drawbacks, but an exo is a defensive position can be retardly difficult to kill, prolonging marine turtles (along with respawn times and armory healing speeds).
I don't think fades need any buffs that also cater to experienced players. There are some crazy good ones out there. But vs shotties/exos, I can understand some leeway for fades of all skill levels. I'd just be happy with an option or a mod to move the health orb closer to the center of my screen. I play at 1920 x 1080 and it's nerve-wracking having to pry my eyes away from the crosshair and to the very lower-left corner. Being unable to check your HP easily spells death more often than not for any class since NS2 is all about quick reflexes. Then again, maybe I should just lower my resolution. -.-
please do not say fades do not need buff because when on the hands of a good player its hard to stop a fade, actually having anything in the hands of a good player anything may be OP
a good fade vs a good shot gunner im sure the shot gunner will win, atleast in my experience it has
in the hands of a normal player a shot gun is pretty good in the hands of a normal player a fade is just garbage
lets look at some situations i always get celerity, silence, carapace when i fade, when i encounter a marine with a shotgun i usually win, when i do win i usually have to go back to a hive an heal because my armor is gone, for what killing 1 shotgun? same goes for LMG marines, 2 marines will make a fade work for it, (as long as they have decent aim) but really? you spend 50 res to struggle against stock marines? i would rather be lerk just snipe and hide i will be able to pick them off slowly buy safely.
i remember a question was brought up asking what is the most perfect lifeform to you and charlie said fade, at the time i agreed, but now that FPS is getting better, players are getting better things have changed. Remember when onos was a big joke compare to an exo? onos use to have (i think) 600hp and 400 armor, its like that but now its a fade compare to a shotgun, only fades are harder to hit but when you hit it does hurt big time
when i say compare i mean level 3 weapons and armor, by the time your able to get a fade usually when marine comm is good with macro they will have level 2 weapons and armor
I remember in NS1 I used to be godly with lerks, I would even take on HA/HMG solo as a lerk, because if you did it right, you could actually move them airborne and somewhat make them immobile. Lerk was by far my favorite class.
Their bite isn't as powerful in NS2 so they aren't the gods with wings that they used to be.
+25 health , +25 armor would do it. Also, make regen upgrades add 20% to total health - regen is so underused because of marine damage. Fades should be the risk/reward evolution but right now they're too risky. Especially for average players.
<!--quoteo(post=2052689:date=Dec 29 2012, 12:38 AM:name=Injuis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Injuis @ Dec 29 2012, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+25 health , +25 armor would do it. Also, make regen upgrades add 20% to total health - regen is so underused because of marine damage. Fades should be the risk/reward evolution but right now they're too risky. Especially for average players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regen is somewhat weak in this game, I've never actually used it. In NS1 it used to be great for onos, but it doesn't really work for anything in this game in my opinion. Might need a buff, but then again as alien commander I've had people ask for regen, so maybe it does have a use that I'm not quite aware of.
Fades+blink are interceptors for simple marines or jetpack. Lerks to. Not structure, or exo (at least not alone). It's not a tank. Onos is.
Play fade differently. The point is to clean places from marines, and let skulks/gorge do the structures. Or be the annoying little jerk in the marine base. Whatever make marines loose grounds or time.
But granted: blink is little bit too much "energy consuming" to my opinion (even with celerity). Depending on lag it consume energy differently. weird.
I'm actually starting to see much improved fade play across the board and it's making me re-think my stance on how useless they are. I still think that seeing 4 players going fade on an alien team wrecks their staying power long term, but if they're active enough and good enough to provide some distraction for the alien team then it can work.
Fade is not a front line fighter that is there to rack up kills. Fades are skirmish units that force marines on the defensive. Fades are meant to distract and cause enough damage to prevent marines from really moving out. Mid game fades purpose is to slow down pushes, cause pressure on lightly guarded phase gate locations, etc. removing most of the 'bite' from the mid game marine team. Fades are there to win map control to aliens. Kills are of secondary importance, primary importance is to bind the marine team down. Regen is ok, but makes fades very vulnerable to accidental deaths.
Fades are at their most useful when they have a couple of forward crag stations to utilize to minimize travel time, so the fades are constantly in and out of marine positions. IE. crags close to a forward phase gate mean that the marine team needs 2-3 constant defenders to keep the fade from dealing damage, which frees up tons of time and map space for the rest of the kharaa team.
So yeah, fades are not meant to take down squads of 2+ marines, that's not what they are there for. The whole game revolves around momentum and map control, and fades provide plenty of both.
If that would be the sole purpose of the fade, they wouldn't be worth the 50 res investment, which is the crux of the issue. I can be as effective at disrupting marine advancement as a lerk, with less risk of dying, and have some viable late game abilities. Even the skulk can play that role to some extent, so you can keep saving up for the onos.
Well the thing is, fades force the marines to invest 20 TRes and at minimum 2 x 20 PRes investments in shotguns. Usually more from a halfway decent fade. If you can find non shotgunners, you can definitely take on 2-3 marines at a time.
<!--quoteo(post=2052859:date=Dec 29 2012, 05:07 PM:name=umphrey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (umphrey @ Dec 29 2012, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well the thing is, fades force the marines to invest 20 TRes and at minimum 2 x 20 PRes investments in shotguns. Usually more from a halfway decent fade. If you can find non shotgunners, you can definitely take on 2-3 marines at a time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If those 2-3 marines don't give you trouble with LMG's then with shotties you'll only die out of bad luck.
I don't want to argue whether or not Fade is a bad purchase. But at the point where I can fade, I have a Skulk with Celerity and Carapace and Leap - AND he's completely free. AND doesn't have to worry about dying. AND kills structures faster. Yeah. No wonder I usually spend a couple more minutes Skulking and then go Onos instead.
<!--quoteo(post=2052869:date=Dec 29 2012, 11:38 AM:name=Tark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tark @ Dec 29 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The value of keeping marines running back, locked in, etc. in mid game is huge. That you fail to see it doesn't make fade bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can do that pretty effectively with a gorge/skulk combo. In fact, dare I say that works better at slowing a 4 marine push than a single fade.
After my system upgrade what I've noticed is the biggest limitation of the fade is actually server performance. It's almost impossible to predict where you're going to go if you want to do a quick turn because the server always ends up skipping important frames and landing you not where you wanted to go as a fade or not letting you jump after a shadowstep at the same timing that you want. 18 players is not enough for the server to handle in some cases, anything higher is impossible. I'll put up a video of what I mean soon, it's hard not to run into walls even when I'm sure my hardware is the same or better than what some NS2 servers are running and both me and the server experience drops in performance.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5r3LjtvLNSI#t=389s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...LjtvLNSI#t=389s</a> fade stuff starting at 6:30, in case anyone is interested.
Your having those problems because your just spamming shadow step, not actually trying to use it evasively. Shadow step makes you slide quite a bite as fade, and with the collisions as movement as is in base ns2 that allows you to slide halfway up walls and in general make you awkward as crap to hit. Use shadow step to get around the map and for carefully timed evasive moves, but use blink for precise movement. Most NS2 fades just spam shadow step, which is only really effective against bad marines (there was only one person on the other team worth mentioning), Honestly I find that killing the marine in 4 quick swipes is far more effective than hitting one or two and trying to be evasive.
Comments
OP it's not hard to see why you went down.
I hope this will suffice. Made a quick video to illustrate the "swipe while stepping" people are having trouble understanding. (Darwin mode is on, no glancing blows @ armor 3)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4aFXJfWGok" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4aFXJfWGok</a>
Fade movement is fine and you can be elusive as you want, BUT the shotgun vs fade is still in need of some tweaking because it doesn't matter how fast you are, you will get hit. And if you get hit 1 (one) time you have to run because the second one will kill you. More armor would help but that would make the LMG laughable at best.
Increasing and standardizing the shotgun spread would certainly help out and be a step in the right direction (i.e. bigger spread less damage at range while keeping efficacy point blank). Right now it is a laser cannon of death that reaches pretty far. But alas I don't know how to balance the fade v. shotgun, but like I said, it definitely needs tweaking.
A more useful 3rd hive ability would be good. Maybe extra shield or health? Fade isn't really that useful in a marine W3 A3 turtle situation.
I find fades main use is sorting out pesky jet packers the would other wise kill your onos. Because of fade's weakness vs structures, it's not good to have more than 1 or 2 on a team imo.
Lerk: i think lerk is ALMOST perfect, it just needs a slight buff, instead of 125/75 with carapace i think the hp needs to be 150 and i think carapace should be 100 if not i think lerk should have ranged spores back with a slight damage nerf, i remember lerks base armor was only 25 and if you got carapace it goes to 75 tripling the base armor, not it only does 50% armor boost after the buff? why? did they forget to add more armor after carapace?
Fade: fade imo needs the biggest buff of all the life forms, im sorry but i find fade very fragile, i cant count how many times me and a fade were going at it 1v1 and i was the one that lived, as long as i had a shotty, i even recall 1v1 with a level 3 LMG i unloaded my clip into him, *some of my shots missed) then pulled out my pistol and finished him, this to me is unacceptable, i laugh at the fact that happened as it was silly, i think fade hp should be 350 just like in the first natural selection, fades are also not very good against exos,
onos: onos imo is almost perfect but i find onos a bit too slow without celerity, i find it so slow to the point where an onos is basically pointless, you run into an empty base to harrass, you head becon, you start to run ASAP, but your slowness will kill you as 5 marines are chasing you down, someimtes getting celerity is not possible, i always get celerity when i go onos if i can
Gorge: i think gorges should be able to build 5 hydras total, or 3 hydras per room or something... 3 hydras doesnt really do any good mid-late game
overall fade is most broken, i remember fades were the ###### now as FPS gets better, marines can aim, fades are a joke if you give a marine with level 3 shotgun who can aim<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Agree with everything said here.
true fade never relies on blink, he spams shadowstep people to death like a bouncing ball of death
true fade knows how to use the momentum provided by shadowstep and is near omnipresence
true fade never overcommits when carapace shell is missing, and never fights while armor is missing
true fade prefers celerity over adrenaline and silence over camo
Only thing I can say for fade is to constantly move in and out. Even if you are going against just one marine, if he is actively shooting at you, back away and re-assess your environment. He could be shooting at you rather than running because another marine is just around the corner (though spray and pray is common as well since running from a determined fade is rather pointless.) Also good marines are never alone (aliens, especially fades, get away with playing rambo in many cases) so count on that angle as well.
I think it might be worth reducing fade cost to 40 and increasing onos cost to 80, this would encourage more people to go fade rather than waiting twice as long to go onos, as opposed to just a little longer. Don't know what effect this would have on league play, but I can't imagine it offsetting pub balance that much.
Only thing I can say for fade is to constantly move in and out. Even if you are going against just one marine, if he is actively shooting at you, back away and re-assess your environment. He could be shooting at you rather than running because another marine is just around the corner (though spray and pray is common as well since running from a determined fade is rather pointless.) Also good marines are never alone (aliens, especially fades, get away with playing rambo in many cases) so count on that angle as well.
I think it might be worth reducing fade cost to 40 and increasing onos cost to 80, this would encourage more people to go fade rather than waiting twice as long to go onos, as opposed to just a little longer. Don't know what effect this would have on league play, but I can't imagine it offsetting pub balance that much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mostly agree with this - Fade is VERY deadly when in the hands of a skilled player. Anyone who ######es that "it dies in 2 sg shots" has a point, it should take 3 direct SG shots to kill, but a good fade player will still get a lot of kills before dying.
Decreasing Fade cost will cause servers to be full of Fades. Then everyone will ###### about how overpowered the Fade is.. best thing to do is leave its cost alone but give it enough health to survive an extra SG shot, it shouldn't be possible to kill a 50 res unit in 2 hits even with weapons level 3.
As for the video the OP posted, you got owned because you shadow stepped directly in front of 2 marines with shotguns. . you apparently didn't see the one at your back who you gave a super easy direct SG hit to. The other marine on your right just happen to have decent enough aim to snap to you for another direct SG hit. No carapace ? bye bye.
a good fade vs a good shot gunner im sure the shot gunner will win, atleast in my experience it has
in the hands of a normal player a shot gun is pretty good
in the hands of a normal player a fade is just garbage
lets look at some situations
i always get celerity, silence, carapace when i fade, when i encounter a marine with a shotgun i usually win, when i do win i usually have to go back to a hive an heal because my armor is gone, for what killing 1 shotgun?
same goes for LMG marines, 2 marines will make a fade work for it, (as long as they have decent aim) but really? you spend 50 res to struggle against stock marines? i would rather be lerk just snipe and hide i will be able to pick them off slowly buy safely.
i remember a question was brought up asking what is the most perfect lifeform to you and charlie said fade, at the time i agreed, but now that FPS is getting better, players are getting better things have changed. Remember when onos was a big joke compare to an exo? onos use to have (i think) 600hp and 400 armor, its like that but now its a fade compare to a shotgun, only fades are harder to hit but when you hit it does hurt big time
when i say compare i mean level 3 weapons and armor, by the time your able to get a fade usually when marine comm is good with macro they will have level 2 weapons and armor
Their bite isn't as powerful in NS2 so they aren't the gods with wings that they used to be.
Also, make regen upgrades add 20% to total health - regen is so underused because of marine damage.
Fades should be the risk/reward evolution but right now they're too risky. Especially for average players.
Also, make regen upgrades add 20% to total health - regen is so underused because of marine damage.
Fades should be the risk/reward evolution but right now they're too risky. Especially for average players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regen is somewhat weak in this game, I've never actually used it. In NS1 it used to be great for onos, but it doesn't really work for anything in this game in my opinion. Might need a buff, but then again as alien commander I've had people ask for regen, so maybe it does have a use that I'm not quite aware of.
Not structure, or exo (at least not alone).
It's not a tank. Onos is.
Play fade differently. The point is to clean places from marines, and let skulks/gorge do the structures. Or be the annoying little jerk in the marine base. Whatever make marines loose grounds or time.
But granted: blink is little bit too much "energy consuming" to my opinion (even with celerity). Depending on lag it consume energy differently. weird.
Fade is not a front line fighter that is there to rack up kills. Fades are skirmish units that force marines on the defensive. Fades are meant to distract and cause enough damage to prevent marines from really moving out. Mid game fades purpose is to slow down pushes, cause pressure on lightly guarded phase gate locations, etc. removing most of the 'bite' from the mid game marine team. Fades are there to win map control to aliens. Kills are of secondary importance, primary importance is to bind the marine team down. Regen is ok, but makes fades very vulnerable to accidental deaths.
Fades are at their most useful when they have a couple of forward crag stations to utilize to minimize travel time, so the fades are constantly in and out of marine positions. IE. crags close to a forward phase gate mean that the marine team needs 2-3 constant defenders to keep the fade from dealing damage, which frees up tons of time and map space for the rest of the kharaa team.
So yeah, fades are not meant to take down squads of 2+ marines, that's not what they are there for. The whole game revolves around momentum and map control, and fades provide plenty of both.
If those 2-3 marines don't give you trouble with LMG's then with shotties you'll only die out of bad luck.
I don't want to argue whether or not Fade is a bad purchase. But at the point where I can fade, I have a Skulk with Celerity and Carapace and Leap - AND he's completely free. AND doesn't have to worry about dying. AND kills structures faster. Yeah. No wonder I usually spend a couple more minutes Skulking and then go Onos instead.
You can do that pretty effectively with a gorge/skulk combo. In fact, dare I say that works better at slowing a 4 marine push than a single fade.