WTF is wrong with Arc's

Moogabe

<div class="IPBDescription">marine arc's</div>I mainly play as Aliens as i prefer it to running around with a machine gun like every other FPS, and now ppl oin the marines have figured out how to use arc's and basicaly destroy an alien base from another room where we cant get to them. WHAT is the alien equivalent to this as its just ruining the game please fix this so they have to at least have LOS on a base.

TimMc

Holy long sentence batman.


Aliens are superior map awareness compared to marines. You should know ARCs are coming and intercept them.

Dwavenhobble

<!--quoteo(post=2046681:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:10 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 16 2012, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Holy long sentence batman.


Aliens are superior map awareness compared to marines. You should know ARCs are coming and intercept them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually due to a few map issues on certain maps combining Arcs with Scan lets you set up and fire arcs from fortified Maine positions as in deep in marine positions. Part of this is due to Arcs firing range or something and in certain spots on certain maps Arcs placed in certain positions will be in range of the alien hive and as such able to attack it even though its not intended to be a a place for arcs.

If you want to see this in action you can test it by having arcs in Onos bar fire on a hive in locker room and I'm sure there are other similar spots I don't know of such as say Landing pad firing through into terminal etc.

RobustPenguin

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Dwavenhobble

<!--quoteo(post=2046697:date=Dec 16 2012, 04:16 PM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Dec 16 2012, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drop shade
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Still get hit as the damn thing fired 2 seconds or less after the scan was used.

TimMc

<!--quoteo(post=2046688:date=Dec 16 2012, 09:40 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 16 2012, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually due to a few map issues on certain maps combining Arcs with Scan lets you set up and fire arcs from fortified Maine positions as in deep in marine positions. Part of this is due to Arcs firing range or something and in certain spots on certain maps Arcs placed in certain positions will be in range of the alien hive and as such able to attack it even though its not intended to be a a place for arcs.

If you want to see this in action you can test it by having arcs in Onos bar fire on a hive in locker room and I'm sure there are other similar spots I don't know of such as say Landing pad firing through into terminal etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

... as I said... aliens are supposed to be aware of these things. Its called drifters. Onos bar is also one of the most well know ARC setup positions, so any commander not expecting that is a moron.


<!--quoteo(post=2046697:date=Dec 16 2012, 10:16 AM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Dec 16 2012, 10:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drop shade
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Don't make me laugh. Its a useless tactic since ink doesn't block active scans, only future ones. You have to spam ink forever, assuming the first salvo doesn't kill the shade.

CrushaK

Yeah, the nerf to damage but buff to fire rate to ARCs was supposed to favour aliens by giving their buildings more durability against being taken out by one combined blow before they can heal over time, IIRC. But what it effectively did was just screwing any defense with Shade Ink that you could have had against those ARCs.

There needs to be at least some limit for the number of ARCs that can be on the field at a time. Tie them to the population limit of MACs and make the ARC cost two population points. So you can get an army of ARCs, but you will need to hold multiple command stations for it and can't have an army of ever-repairing MACs with it.

TimMc

<!--quoteo(post=2046809:date=Dec 16 2012, 03:03 PM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 16 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There needs to be at least some limit for the number of ARCs that can be on the field at a time. Tie them to the population limit of MACs and make the ARC cost two population points. So you can get an army of ARCs, but you will need to hold multiple command stations for it and can't have an army of ever-repairing MACs with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I've already made a mod that does that. Would be nice if something like that were done in normal game though.

l3lessed

I agree with this. As an example, you can lock down double in mineshaft and put robotics and arc in there. If you do, you not only secure two res nodes, but you also secure a hive and, as a result, another res node; that's three res nodes, a free tech point, and access to the whole map all from securing one room. Arcs make certain maps very unbalanced by making the acquisition of certain areas a guaranteed GG, unless you're dealing with a very incompetent team. However, this can be solved by a little better map design rather than gimping arcs down to a niche item with very little use. As an example, in NS1 no hives were arcable from a double res room or another hive. Not the case in NS2.

ZEROibis

You know, arcs are not free...

Also dealing with arcs is exactly the same as in NS1, make them beacon and then bio the arcs.

l3lessed

Or how about we just have balanced maps when it comes to arcs, like NS1.

Champlo0

Aliens don't have an equivalent because they don't need it. Their closest equivalent is bile bomb. Also, arcs don't need to be limited because they cost 15 TRes + Robo Lab + Upgrade. If someone is willing to build more than 2 or 3, that's on them/circumstance. No point in limiting it so that aliens stop turtling with shift crag and 4 gorges.

kespec

remove arcs, implement user controlled siege weaponary.

hus

Yes, get rid of those slow moving, expensive and situational tools that marines have.
It's almost like it forces aliens to coordinate and talk to each other. OR even use drifters /shockhorror.

Dwavenhobble

Just gimp their range a bit so they can't simply sit in places like Bar and fire through to Locker rooms. This would probably help in a lot of such situations

TimMc

<!--quoteo(post=2046946:date=Dec 16 2012, 09:43 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Dec 16 2012, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, get rid of those slow moving, expensive and situational tools that marines have.
It's almost like it forces aliens to coordinate and talk to each other. OR even use drifters /shockhorror.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Exactly.

SpaceJew

Some maps they're useful, other maps not at all.

I don't really think they're OP though, unless they have a <i>ton</i> of them and you don't have Bile Bomb or smart Gorges. If they have that many though, it means you lost all game. It's gotta end <i>somehow</i>, might as well be 20 ARC's.

Salt

'our' (the alien's) equivilant to an arc, is an upgraded whip with bombard Though it unfortunately costs 30 resources in total, and needs time to mature so you can get the upgrade.

Shifting a bombard whip into an enemy base can wreck some serious havoc during an attack there.
It does 1200 splash damage to buildings.

But yeah, it's really underused, since for that same 30 resources you can get a lerk egg, which is of much greater value than some makeshift ######ty (and most of all bugged) siege option.

no_idea

<!--quoteo(post=2046938:date=Dec 17 2012, 04:18 AM:name=kespec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kespec @ Dec 17 2012, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->remove arcs, implement user controlled siege weaponary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh hell I WOULD LOVE it to see the old siege-cannon in NS2.

l3lessed

Yeah echoed bombard whips can really mess some rine structures up, but it really is an end game option, and not really anything else. Arc's, as a t.res investment, can at least be easily defended since they can shoot through walls making them a more viable alternative strategy for dealing with fortified aliens; couple this with imbalanced maps, and you have some clear problems with arcs use. Whips have to move into very, very vulnerable positions and root, almost always being killed costing you 30 t.res and mature time. If you go with the echo placement, that is a massive t.res sink not even worth it, until you are already clearly winning and have the spare res to throw around.

d0ped0g

<!--quoteo(post=2046893:date=Dec 16 2012, 07:35 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Dec 16 2012, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or how about we just have balanced maps when it comes to arcs, like NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Were NS1 maps really that well balanced for seige cannons? The most glaring example of imbalance in this regard was ns_nothing's "red room". Granted you had to have jetpacks to get in there, it was still rather OP.

MMZ_Torak

<!--quoteo(post=2047493:date=Dec 18 2012, 02:40 AM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 18 2012, 02:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Were NS1 maps really that well balanced for seige cannons? The most glaring example of imbalance in this regard was ns_nothing's "red room". Granted you had to have jetpacks to get in there, it was still rather OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Heh, was just thinking this exactly, though my brain is clouded and couldn't remember the exact scenario.

Redroom FTW! :)

SeeVee

<!--quoteo(post=2046809:date=Dec 16 2012, 04:03 PM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 16 2012, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There needs to be at least some limit for the number of ARCs that can be on the field at a time. Tie them to the population limit of MACs and make the ARC cost two population points. So you can get an army of ARCs, but you will need to hold multiple command stations for it and can't have an army of ever-repairing MACs with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That being said, then there should be a limit on the 20 whip marches that the Aliens can do.

Nakorson

<!--quoteo(post=2047626:date=Dec 18 2012, 09:47 AM:name=SeeVee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SeeVee @ Dec 18 2012, 09:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2047626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That being said, then there should be a limit on the 20 whip marches that the Aliens can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Just that those 20 whips can be killed by 2 arcs, and whips are more expensive and require infestation ;)

SixtyWattMan

Bile Bomb the ARCs.

Csae

And if you know theres a map where they can arc a hive, defend that location, or don't drop that hive...

They are obviously gonna try to kill you at some point, whether they arc in gap or central is meaningless, you should be fighting them out of it. 1 Arc can be crag stacked, it takes a couple moments to get enough arcs for a OH SHI hive kill, which means you haven't scouted that area in a while! If theres few arcs, you should have plenty of time to fight it out.