How I see Refinery Balanced
Champlo0
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Members
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Members
<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/2zf4t2a.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This is a map of refinery that I made so I could demonstrate what I wanted to change (also because I am thinking about doing a video so I made it cause I don't like the weird in-game exported version)
Disclaimer: Some of this isn't accurate, I got lazy tracing some walls and what not.
<img src="http://i45.tinypic.com/3150aw2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This is a highlighted version that shows where I see changes being made. Blue represents something that should basically be removed, purple represents something that I believe should be added/modified. All of these I have numbered as to deliver my explanations, here they are.
Blue/Removed:
1: Heatsink lets aliens get to Pipeworks too fast. Nothing to say here, just lets aliens get to Pipeworks too fast. Remove the whole area.
2: Lava Falls East Platform (no better name for it) provides access from Chasm into Lava Falls, Routing, and hence Conduit/Smelting. Remove the whole area
3: Empty Space (what an amazing name) needs to have its entrance from Lava Falls removed so marines can hold aliens at Pipeworks.
4: The hallway in exchange is too damn long. Remove the snaking path and make it a straight shot (or straighter) to Pipeworks.
5: The vent leading from Routing to Transit and Smelting needs to be removed. Let's aliens hit marine RTs way too fast.
6: Remove the snaky hallway that leads to Smelting from Transit. Transit also needs to have its RT moved closer to the marine base.
UNLISTED: Pipeworks needs to have its TP removed to balance out marines having an immediate TP right beside their base.
Purple/Added/Modified:
1: The hallway from Transit to smelting needs to be remade so that Transit is closer to marine spawn but Smelting is about the same distance.
2: Smelting needs to be moved up a little bit and connect to Routing and Conduit with 2 seperate Hallways. The hallway leading to Conduit needs to snake so marines can't just sit way back and get a line of sight.
3: Conduit needs to be moved up to compensate for increased distance from alien spawn and for decreased marine distance.
4: Routing needs to be its own room that connects to Conduit and Smelting. Not much changed here honestly.
5: Falls Approach needs to be made diagonal and shorter. The most important change on this number is <i>Lava Falls connects to Routing just like the little bridge on the side that connects to Pipeworks</i>
6: Exchange needs to lead straight to Pipeworks
7 Lava Falls (Yes, there's two 7's, sorry): Lava Falls' RT itself needs to be moved down slightly, and the eastern bridge needs to be removed (logically). Also, the second level should be removed.
7 Turbine: Turbine needs to be moved up into the map to make getting to it slightly lengthier than it would be normally from Smelting. The hallway from Chasm would lead up, instead of down. By extension, Conduit has to be longer, preferably on the top side.
These are just my opinions on how to balance Refinery. These changes would make it easier to hold for marines and more difficult to attack marine RTs that are closer to their base.
Any thoughts? I'd really appreciate some dev feedback if they're considering changing the map at all.
This is a map of refinery that I made so I could demonstrate what I wanted to change (also because I am thinking about doing a video so I made it cause I don't like the weird in-game exported version)
Disclaimer: Some of this isn't accurate, I got lazy tracing some walls and what not.
<img src="http://i45.tinypic.com/3150aw2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This is a highlighted version that shows where I see changes being made. Blue represents something that should basically be removed, purple represents something that I believe should be added/modified. All of these I have numbered as to deliver my explanations, here they are.
Blue/Removed:
1: Heatsink lets aliens get to Pipeworks too fast. Nothing to say here, just lets aliens get to Pipeworks too fast. Remove the whole area.
2: Lava Falls East Platform (no better name for it) provides access from Chasm into Lava Falls, Routing, and hence Conduit/Smelting. Remove the whole area
3: Empty Space (what an amazing name) needs to have its entrance from Lava Falls removed so marines can hold aliens at Pipeworks.
4: The hallway in exchange is too damn long. Remove the snaking path and make it a straight shot (or straighter) to Pipeworks.
5: The vent leading from Routing to Transit and Smelting needs to be removed. Let's aliens hit marine RTs way too fast.
6: Remove the snaky hallway that leads to Smelting from Transit. Transit also needs to have its RT moved closer to the marine base.
UNLISTED: Pipeworks needs to have its TP removed to balance out marines having an immediate TP right beside their base.
Purple/Added/Modified:
1: The hallway from Transit to smelting needs to be remade so that Transit is closer to marine spawn but Smelting is about the same distance.
2: Smelting needs to be moved up a little bit and connect to Routing and Conduit with 2 seperate Hallways. The hallway leading to Conduit needs to snake so marines can't just sit way back and get a line of sight.
3: Conduit needs to be moved up to compensate for increased distance from alien spawn and for decreased marine distance.
4: Routing needs to be its own room that connects to Conduit and Smelting. Not much changed here honestly.
5: Falls Approach needs to be made diagonal and shorter. The most important change on this number is <i>Lava Falls connects to Routing just like the little bridge on the side that connects to Pipeworks</i>
6: Exchange needs to lead straight to Pipeworks
7 Lava Falls (Yes, there's two 7's, sorry): Lava Falls' RT itself needs to be moved down slightly, and the eastern bridge needs to be removed (logically). Also, the second level should be removed.
7 Turbine: Turbine needs to be moved up into the map to make getting to it slightly lengthier than it would be normally from Smelting. The hallway from Chasm would lead up, instead of down. By extension, Conduit has to be longer, preferably on the top side.
These are just my opinions on how to balance Refinery. These changes would make it easier to hold for marines and more difficult to attack marine RTs that are closer to their base.
Any thoughts? I'd really appreciate some dev feedback if they're considering changing the map at all.
Comments
That said, if you feel this strongly on maps and want to have an impact on how maps are designed then you should apply to the maptesting team. You'll have a better opportunity to affect change and present your ideas to both other testers and map devs.
no idea how your rework would look or work to be honest.
it is just really hard to defend as marine. or to pressure effectivly due to the distances.
edit: cant you rework the map with the spark editor?
no idea how your rework would look or work to be honest.
it is just really hard to defend as marine. or to pressure effectivly due to the distances.
edit: cant you rework the map with the spark editor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The map already has long walk distances, my goal in these changes were to change the immediate RTs for marines to be closer, create more chokes, and make aliens still able to defend their early RTs. Lava Falls is essentially meant to be a no man's land whereas Routing has been made into a more powerful position.
edit: i don't really know how to use spark editor. you probably could, but i assume you'd have to unpackage it first, or whatever, based on my knowledge of maps in source.
There's no tech point in pipeworks with my changes, so it isn't as big of a deal. In my opinion that helps with the turtling. Pipeworks was thought of as more of a forward assault area for Lava Falls when I was thinking of these changes.
The majority of the problem I see with Refinery is there is too much travel time and Lava Falls is too Alien "friendly". The catwalks are too narrow for Marines to dodge and there are too few of them in general.
1) Shift Exchange, Flow Control, and Extraction to the right for more direct routes.
2) Make Transit to Smelting a more direct route.
3) Shift Heatsink, Containment, and Chasm upwards, extending distance from Lava Falls.
With my <u><b>leet MS-Paint skills</b></u> (sorry for the broken transparency):
Note: Map is not perfect, but right away you can see that distance between tech points and resource node are a lot more proportional than before.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/K4NfM.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
my idea.
2 "safe" rt's for each side (containment+chasm vs flow control + transit). 2 "safe" tech points (containment, turbine vs flow control, smelting). pipe works, lava falls, routing, conduit are 'unsafe' and are fought over.
also each side can spawn at either of their 'safe' tech points. so you could have flow control vs turbine, smelting vs containment, etc.
<b><u>Important changes:</u></b>
<ul><li>Marines moved to Pipeworks</li><li>Aliens moved to Turbine</li><li>Chasm walk through moved to a more convenient location to reduce travel time to lava falls</li><li>Vents added from turbine to routing area.</li><li>Conduit res node removed</li><li>Heatsink res node added</li><li>Obscuring wall added at heatsink</li></ul>
Each team is moved closer to one another, and double is placed at the midpoints between the two starting locations (unlike to lobsided placement currently). Auxillary res nodes are available on the way to the contested tech room, while no res nodes are available on the way to the uncontested tech rooms. One res node exists between the two uncontested tech rooms. Heatsink rise node gets an obscuring wall to balanace its defence with that of chasms res node.
A change I didn't include was that lava falls res layout should be rotated ninety degrees, so that its backing wall obscures marine start from the nodes.
(except veil, NS1 maps ftw)
(except veil, NS1 maps ftw)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Veil is an atrocity
It'll get better with time.
It'll get better with time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you can ignore the design of a map when the game is so far into development. I cannot imagine anything, even perfect performance, balancing out a specific element of a map. Refinery is balanced for aliens in terms of their ease of movement around the map, and the distance that marines have to travel, and the difficulty of pushing aliens out of their hold on the northern areas of Refinery. There's a pressing need to analyze the map design of any map that has a huge disparity for alien advantage compared to marine advantage.
It would enable the marines to harass each of the cyst chains between turbine and lava falls more easily, thus pulling most of the alien team into defending these assets. Also, the very unused flanking corridor (room name: "Chasm") would be become useful when the aliens get their second hive at "Turbine".
##Also, probably remove the vents into Conduit, and make "Routing" a straight <u>Y</u> towards "Chasm" and Lava Falls.
Areas I feel need work:
<ul><li>Flow control is too far from any RTs</li><li>Heatsink is too straight rush between techpoints. </li><li>Lavafalls access to routing heavily favours aliens with their containment start. </li><li>Lavafalls in general is very easy to protect.</li><li>Transit is too far away from everything, and as such always dies.</li></ul>
My suggestions:
<ul><li>Move flow control TP to extraction. Giving quicker access to transit.</li><li>Add RT to exchange.</li><li>Move alien start to turbine so harder to defend lavafalls early game.</li><li>Add more bends to slow down movement on both sides in heatsink.</li><li>Move the lavafalls-routing access south, giving balance in access.</li></ul>
It really is.
As for Refinery, the key changes needed seem to be:
1. Lava Falls RTs moved further from fixed alien start location and closer to marine start. There should be more balance for teams trying to control this area; it shouldn't be an alien gimme.
2. Slightly reduce raidability of Transit (possibly by making it closer to transit or conduit.
<ul><li>Exchange gets an RT point</li><li>Path from Flow Control to Smelting gets shortened</li></ul>
(except veil, NS1 maps ftw)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Surely you do not mean ns2_fail, right?
Here are just a few problems with THAT map (good subject for an entirely separate thread)...
-4 TP, not suitable for NS2's new Powernode/Cyst struggle-type gameplay
-Said TPs are all located on the opposite side of the static Marine Start
-Double is too accessible for Aliens and hard to defend without early GL/JPs
-Speaking of accessibility, there are more vents than ns1_veil and on top of that are not "weldable"
These are just a few but serious if not fatal errors I find with ns2_veil. This is also coming from someone who loved ns1_veil.
Here are just a few problems with THAT map (good subject for an entirely separate thread)...
-4 TP, not suitable for NS2's new Powernode/Cyst struggle-type gameplay
-Said TPs are all located on the opposite side of the static Marine Start
-Double is too accessible for Aliens and hard to defend without early GL/JPs
-Speaking of accessibility, there are more vents than ns1_veil and on top of that are not "weldable"
These are just a few but serious if not fatal errors I find with ns2_veil. This is also coming from someone who loved ns1_veil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet the winrate is about identical to the other maps, certainly less alien-favored than Refinery.
For veil
Just add entrances to nano grid from east and west junction
This way marines can get there quicker and 2 gorges cant lock it down as easy
For veil
Just add entrances to nano grid from east and west junction
This way marines can get there quicker and 2 gorges cant lock it down as easy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes more than 2 gorges. Once marines get in there aliens have little chance to get into nano after its fortified
Adding more entrance might help that as well
Here are just a few problems with THAT map (good subject for an entirely separate thread)...
-4 TP, not suitable for NS2's new Powernode/Cyst struggle-type gameplay
-Said TPs are all located on the opposite side of the static Marine Start
-Double is too accessible for Aliens and hard to defend without early GL/JPs
-Speaking of accessibility, there are more vents than ns1_veil and on top of that are not "weldable"
These are just a few but serious if not fatal errors I find with ns2_veil. This is also coming from someone who loved ns1_veil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funnily enough does the 4-TP-style hinder aliens more than marines because marines only need to get one second base either in Pipeline or Sub-Access to deny aliens their third Hive. They have to fight on less frontiers and can easily lock down an entire side of a map.
I believe 5 is what should be on every map, but that is just a matter of opinion. How it actually effects gameplay would actually require a conclusive and deep study of competitive-level of play (which at this point the game is far to small to produce accurate results anyway).
Having 4 TP indeed hurts Aliens more, but I was actually pointing out how odd it is for Veil to be the only "Official" map with only 4 TPs. My other points were more targeted at imbalance benefiting Aliens more. However, the amount and placement of TPs on a map directly effects both sides. I feel if Veil were to be considered Official, it should follow the now semi-standard "bicycle wheel" layout of 5 TPs, semi-evenly spaced RTs, connecting corridors, and rooms.
4 tech ponts in a square?
3 in a triangle?
I do like veil for being different though. Its far more tense for aliens to deny marine expansion. 5 TP maps you don't care if marines get a second base, because you can still get your 3 hives.
I believe 5 is what should be on every map, but that is just a matter of opinion. How it actually effects gameplay would actually require a conclusive and deep study of competitive-level of play (which at this point the game is far to small to produce accurate results anyway).
Having 4 TP indeed hurts Aliens more, but I was actually pointing out how odd it is for Veil to be the only "Official" map with only 4 TPs. My other points were more targeted at imbalance benefiting Aliens more. However, the amount and placement of TPs on a map directly effects both sides. I feel if Veil were to be considered Official, it should follow the now semi-standard "bicycle wheel" layout of 5 TPs, semi-evenly spaced RTs, connecting corridors, and rooms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Veil is an official map. It is also one of 3 maps competitive players will play seriously. docking, refinery and mineshaft all have problems. I would rank them in that order of playability.
I think 4 tech points is a lot more interesting then 5 personally. If aliens get 3 hives on any map, they are generally beating the pants of the marines any way, so why do we need a stalemate inducing extra tech point?