Shade is the HAAXXXORZ

SeeVee

It's so easy to be an alien and rack up kills by walking around the marine base and killing everyone you come across without being seen. I feel like I am using a cheat. Cloaked aliens should show up with marine observatory if they are moving and not on infestation at the very least... but I think aliens should only have the ability to cloak when they are touching infestation. Anyone else agree?

Volcano

They do show up with scans and the obs passive aoe scan

SeeVee

Do they only show when they are moving?

I still say if they are not on infestation they shouldn't be cloaked.

Volcano

No they show up regardless if they are moving or not, but they have to be in scan range or within the obs passive for them to show up

Angelusz

Having cloak only work in infestation completely negates its use. The marines already have enough ways to detect it. Sound, observatories (passive) and scans (active).

Compare it to making certain marine weapons only work in powered rooms, that would make them too weak as well.

SeeVee

<!--quoteo(post=2044965:date=Dec 13 2012, 09:12 AM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Dec 13 2012, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having cloak only work in infestation completely negates its use. The marines already have enough ways to detect it. Sound, observatories (passive) and scans (active).

Compare it to making certain marine weapons only work in powered rooms, that would make them too weak as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Do sentry guns stop working if the room loses power?

Volcano

no they keep working because they are powered by the power pack thats next to them

SeeVee

Thanks, I did not realize that.

Angelusz

To add to Volcano's post, sentry guns aren't carried by marines, so it does not gimp a FPS player his/her performance. That's what we're talking about here.

Now. If you feel that cloak is really too strong, please come up with good arguments and a possible solution.

I honestly can't think of a reason to change it right now, I feel like it's exactly where it needs to be. Useful in some situations, but easy to counter as I described earlier.

EDIT: Typo.

SeeVee

his reply made me think of that as a question. I just found it way to easy to kill marines because I could run around undetected at all times, even in their base

GORGEous

Camouflage needs to be actual camouflage (vaguely visible while moving) and less like actual invisibility. It's horribly broken on pubs. It's incredibly unfun to play against because you are completely reliant on your commander to give you any kind of fighting shot in every single engagement as a marine. Not only does camouflage frequently result in free kills/wins for aliens, but it also drains marine resources to an untenable point. It is impossible to spam scans or build observatories in every room marines are trying to hold in a remotely even game.

Kouji_San

<!--quoteo(post=2044971:date=Dec 13 2012, 02:24 PM:name=SeeVee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SeeVee @ Dec 13 2012, 02:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044971"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->his reply made me think of that as a question. I just found it way to easy to kill marines because I could run around undetected at all times, even in their base<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not if the main base has an obs ;)


But yeah for the chaotic and unpredictable nature of pubplay it is quite powerful, I'd like to see at the very least the 100% invisibility removed and move back to the way it was (slightly visible)

SeeVee

That would be a good option too than the fully inviso-mode.

maD maX

Bring back obs energy and lose 3res per scan. If they go SC then you drop a second or third obs and hot key them so you can scan constantly..... Still sets you back 15-30 res and a lot of commander diversion but it doesn't break the rine team economy....

SpaceJew

<!--quoteo(post=2044979:date=Dec 13 2012, 08:47 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 13 2012, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Camouflage needs to be actual camouflage (vaguely visible while moving) and less like actual invisibility. It's horribly broken on pubs. It's incredibly unfun to play against because you are completely reliant on your commander to give you any kind of fighting shot in every single engagement as a marine. Not only does camouflage frequently result in free kills/wins for aliens, but it also drains marine resources to an untenable point. It is impossible to spam scans or build observatories in every room marines are trying to hold in a remotely even game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Camo is, indeed, incredibly useful versus a Marine team that doesn't have a single clue between 8 or 12 players. Especially if their commander doesn't have a clue to his name. However, if they are no longer a green name and have commanded even a few successful games in the past Camo is a fail strategy. 'Good' aliens teams will lose to 'good' Marines teams if they go Camo first or second Hive. It puts extra emphasis on that third hive to be able to win the game.

Your options with Shade as First or Second hive (discounting Silence upgrade of course):

Camo+Carapace

Camo+Adrenaline

Camo+Celerity

Camo+Regen

Nowhere in this list do you have a combination that can effectively break a Marines base with a single Obs. Yes, the scans and extra Obs the Marines will need to completely counter your shade hive will slow down their inevitable win, but it's still an inevitable win. You will end up with what amounts to one chamber upgrade by mid-game against good Marines.

That isn't to say camo never works, but in the situations where it does work anything else would have worked too. So what's the argument? That bad teams are, in fact, bad? Shall we nerf Camo so that it's just never researched at all? Because I'll be honest here, Camo as it is right now is only in the game to troll green name commanders. Planning a strategy against the worst of players might win you a game or two, but I guarantee you through experience that it will lose you far more games than it will win if you play on servers with even intermediate players.

If camo got nerfed, why not just leave your third hive 'blank' in case you lose one of your useful hives? I mean, that's what I usually do already given the relative usefulness of Shade hive. Making it useless against even the worst of teams just guarantees it never gets researched. Especially if it's anything less than total invisibility. It would just make it that much more profitable to disable all the extra graphics options in NS2 to really make those 'camouflaged but still visible' aliens a total joke.

zeq

Camo is really situational, and easily countered once the enemy realizes your team has it. But silence is really powerful in my opinion. It takes a lot more skill to effectively use silence as opposed to camo, but celerity + silence skulks have unparalleled harass ability, and a good skulk can sneak around marine vision without camo. But really to use either of these abilities effectively your team needs a lot of coordination to be able to end the game before it goes on for too long, otherwise the marines will out tech or just counter your abilities.

LilbitHeartless

It is really odd when a commander doesn't have an obs in base, should be there for beacon if anything, let alone how nice it is to see red dots on the map when skulks are wandering around in your main base. Plus if you are fast at even getting a second obs in a forward base, usually the middle of the map, it makes aliens feel like they wasted an upgrade. I think silence can be pretty awesome but it really seems like aliens don't use it much (your average joe alien). Alien's skittering sound is pretty darn loud, and marines get very used to depending on it (myself included).

Remember camo makes aliens have to go slow, so keep on the move, stay with your buddies, and watch their backs. Even after a second hive they are either missing movement speed or armor

GORGEous

<!--quoteo(post=2045164:date=Dec 13 2012, 05:31 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 13 2012, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Camo is, indeed, incredibly useful versus a Marine team that doesn't have a single clue between 8 or 12 players. Especially if their commander doesn't have a clue to his name. However, if they are no longer a green name and have commanded even a few successful games in the past Camo is a fail strategy. 'Good' aliens teams will lose to 'good' Marines teams if they go Camo first or second Hive. It puts extra emphasis on that third hive to be able to win the game.

Your options with Shade as First or Second hive (discounting Silence upgrade of course):

Camo+Carapace

Camo+Adrenaline

Camo+Celerity

Camo+Regen

Nowhere in this list do you have a combination that can effectively break a Marines base with a single Obs. Yes, the scans and extra Obs the Marines will need to completely counter your shade hive will slow down their inevitable win, but it's still an inevitable win. You will end up with what amounts to one chamber upgrade by mid-game against good Marines.

That isn't to say camo never works, but in the situations where it does work anything else would have worked too. So what's the argument? That bad teams are, in fact, bad? Shall we nerf Camo so that it's just never researched at all? Because I'll be honest here, Camo as it is right now is only in the game to troll green name commanders. Planning a strategy against the worst of players might win you a game or two, but I guarantee you through experience that it will lose you far more games than it will win if you play on servers with even intermediate players.

If camo got nerfed, why not just leave your third hive 'blank' in case you lose one of your useful hives? I mean, that's what I usually do already given the relative usefulness of Shade hive. Making it useless against even the worst of teams just guarantees it never gets researched. Especially if it's anything less than total invisibility. It would just make it that much more profitable to disable all the extra graphics options in NS2 to really make those 'camouflaged but still visible' aliens a total joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Your whole idea fails because

a) camo puts you to such a great early lead that taking a third hive isn't very hard.
b) shift upgrades (adren and celerity) really don't do anything to help break a phasegate held tech point.
c) carapace is still available on 2nd hive and that's what is important.


You think only noobs suffer from camo, but in fact it tends to be only noobs that think it is balanced. Imagine that irony.

d0ped0g

The idea that camo should only work on infestation is a terrible one, although it got me thinking.

There's lots of people who are irked by camo movement being 100% invisible. Though there are others that beleive anything other than 100% visible may aswell be 100% visible to a keen set of eyes (I am of this camp). I think a good compromise would be having 100% invisible cloak movement on infestation, but some 99% visible predator effect off infestation.

I still think the better option would to fix the effect constant scanning has on the marine economy. Camoflague is counterable with scan, but is still expensive, and it's not as if the extra micro the commander has to do doesn't have it's drawbacks already (if only slightly). I've said this countless times in other threads - make scanning cost no res. Either have a massive cooldown, or have a small energy pool and regeneration rate to prevent spamming and force the marines to spend more res on multiple observatories to scan more often (although still costs res, is a one time investment and costs less than having to scan every 30 seconds).

Badass_Ben

How about a purchasable motion tracker for marines, like the aliens movie. Depending on balance, it could either work as an actual motion tracker or a sort of thermal vision which lights up invisible skulks like Christmas trees (to the user only)

zeq

3 obs is not a huge investment, and currently on most pubs that is all that is needed to make camo mostly useless. Put one obs in each base, and one for a forward assault point. Outside of these places marines should be in large enough groups to not be at a disadvantage when fighting camouflaged aliens, as the camo dissipates as soon as they attack, and often the group will finish off the alien losing no more than one marine, maybe two or three if it is a large group, but still coming out on top. A scan or two is common when assaulting a hive, so it isn't like the marines are further disadvantaged when attacking bases with early camo. Furthermore, a good forward base is usually at a choke point, so an obs there will prevent most aliens from using camo. Any extra scans or obs can be recuperated by the larger map control that the marine team should have because the aliens are either weaker or easier to hit. Additionally grabbing armor upgrades first when the enemy gets an early shade will make a huge difference, as it will make the ambush tactics camo skulks rely on a lot harder. Against a competent marine team, early shade requires a lot of teamwork and skill to work, it is in no way overpowered.

hakenspit

<!--quoteo(post=2044982:date=Dec 14 2012, 01:56 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Dec 14 2012, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not if the main base has an obs ;)


But yeah for the chaotic and unpredictable nature of pubplay it is quite powerful, I'd like to see at the very least the 100% invisibility removed and move back to the way it was (slightly visible)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then we will again only ever see shade hives going up after 2 other hives have already been built.
We tried the whole partial cloaking over the Beta (heck you where there ;)) and it was useless until it made you 100% invisible.
Only since then have we seen people actually going shade hive first (for more than just sh1ts and giggles) as a somewhat viable strat.
Aliens get to land 1 bite...wow...they need 3 to kill a a0 marine...and it gois up from there, this is not an insta-gib ability the aliens get..its simply to land the first bite.

Shade is easily countered, just slow your game play down, obs and tech points are crucial...more than res nodes as unless they can get 3 hives the aliens will struggle.
People need to realise there is more than 1 strat in this game...some of them will change how you have to play...shade is just one such example.

GORGEous

<!--quoteo(post=2045431:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:58 AM:name=zeq)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zeq @ Dec 14 2012, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3 obs is not a huge investment, and currently on most pubs that is all that is needed to make camo mostly useless. Put one obs in each base, and one for a forward assault point. Outside of these places marines should be in large enough groups to not be at a disadvantage when fighting camouflaged aliens, as the camo dissipates as soon as they attack, and often the group will finish off the alien losing no more than one marine, maybe two or three if it is a large group, but still coming out on top. A scan or two is common when assaulting a hive, so it isn't like the marines are further disadvantaged when attacking bases with early camo. Furthermore, a good forward base is usually at a choke point, so an obs there will prevent most aliens from using camo. Any extra scans or obs can be recuperated by the larger map control that the marine team should have because the aliens are either weaker or easier to hit. Additionally grabbing armor upgrades first when the enemy gets an early shade will make a huge difference, as it will make the ambush tactics camo skulks rely on a lot harder. Against a competent marine team, early shade requires a lot of teamwork and skill to work, it is in no way overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


You realize this is effectively like saying "just build a phasegate at their second hive and then you win!" Well, duh, but you kind of skipped over the part where you actually go do it.

I like how you justify camo as being balanced by saying "if a large marine group only loses 1-3 marines to a skulk then everything is fine!"

SeeVee

I'd be for full cloaking if approx every 10-15 seconds you pulsed to a blur for 1 second so if a marine was not really paying attention he'd would not even see it. It may be a good solution and it will certainly keep marine awareness level up :)

d0ped0g

<!--quoteo(post=2045580:date=Dec 14 2012, 07:59 AM:name=SeeVee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SeeVee @ Dec 14 2012, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd be for full cloaking if approx every 10-15 seconds you pulsed to a blur for 1 second so if a marine was not really paying attention he'd would not even see it. It may be a good solution and it will certainly keep marine awareness level up :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is also not a bad compromise between the '100% invisible is OP' and 'not 100% invisible may as well be 100% visible' camps.

I'm still more for an economy-based solution. Camo already has a counter available. It just costs too much, especially in the early game when res is tight.

SpaceJew

I think that this discussion about camo has one real benefit, and only one.

If Camo gets changed, it will prove that UWE caters to forum goers that don't know how to play the game.

Then we can all make snarky forum topics about how OP the Marines are all the time with their ranged weapons, hard counters, AoE explosives, and mobile turrets that shoot through walls.

Frankly, I think it's <i> hilarious</i> that people whine and complain about something that costs 3 T.Res. It's the same cost as three dropped med packs, so which is worse? Dropping tons of health packs on Marines that are fighting fast or armored aliens; or dropping a scan around grouped Marines at obvious ambush locations? Scan keeps you from even needing the health packs, since Camo aliens are not only slow but also have no health to speak of.

Rush weapons upgrades and armor upgrades, scan often, win the game.

If you can't win against Camo first aliens, congratulations your team is <i>awful</i> and would have lost to <i>no upgrades at all</i>.

And Shade ink countering scans? If you're psychic and know when and where the Marine commander is going to scan next you should never lose games. The obvious retort is when Marines assault a hive. Realistically, by the time Marines are assaulting that hive they won't even need the scan any more due to egg lock on a crappy Aliens team.

EDIT: Spelling.

SeeVee

<!--quoteo(post=2045799:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:25 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that this discussion about camo has one real benefit, and only one.

If Camo gets changed, it will prove that UWE caters to forum goers that don't know how to play the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I don't think it will prove that at all. Your stating an opinion, not a fact.

SpaceJew

<!--quoteo(post=2045839:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:10 PM:name=SeeVee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SeeVee @ Dec 14 2012, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think it will prove that at all. Your stating an opinion, not a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This whole thread is nothing except belly aching and conjecture, followed by opinion. Why should I be any different?

There are no real statistics that we have access to in order to see the actual win rate of shade first hive let alone second hive. Maybe UWE does, who knows? Everyone bases their opinion on their game play experience, of which they are a common factor. If a bad player loses constantly to camo, is it camo's fault or the players?

Since there's an easy, cheap counter I would say it's the player. Obviously, people that routinely play with crappy commanders or are themselves poor commanders will have a different experience. (Namely, losing constantly to teams that are so much better they win with troll tactics.)

I do know, for a fact, that <i>I</i> prefer doing Shade last because it has the lowest chance to win versus Marine teams that are good. I prefer to plan around the other team not being idiots, so that I don't lose the very few good games between evenly matched teams.

SeeVee

<!--quoteo(post=2045901:date=Dec 14 2012, 05:55 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This whole thread is nothing except belly aching and conjecture, followed by opinion. Why should I be any different?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This does say a lot... however not in the way you intended.

Regardless of what you say about the game and whether or not people know how to play it, I still stand with the opinion that I feel like I am using a hack when fully inviso. I think the alien should have a predator-like cloak when moving or at least pulse to this every few seconds while moving. If the alien is still and inviso I don't have an issue with that. Being able to walk almost everywhere fully inviso I do have a problem with.

a little less dramatic & minus the glowing eyes: <a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JcIe4EsmDYA/TUXEYkRbAbI/AAAAAAAABEA/kYY1nDlMTcA/s1600/predator+invisibility.jpg" target="_blank">http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JcIe4EsmDYA/TUXE...nvisibility.jpg</a>

SpaceJew

<!--quoteo(post=2045923:date=Dec 14 2012, 05:36 PM:name=SeeVee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SeeVee @ Dec 14 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This does say a lot... however not in the way you intended.

Regardless of what you say about the game and whether or not people know how to play it, I still stand with the opinion that I feel like I am using a hack when fully inviso. I think the alien should have a predator-like cloak when moving or at least pulse to this every few seconds while moving. If the alien is still and inviso I don't have an issue with that. Being able to walk almost everywhere fully inviso I do have a problem with.

a little less dramatic & minus the glowing eyes: <a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JcIe4EsmDYA/TUXEYkRbAbI/AAAAAAAABEA/kYY1nDlMTcA/s1600/predator+invisibility.jpg" target="_blank">http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JcIe4EsmDYA/TUXE...nvisibility.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So you criticize me putting forward opinion then proceed to put out your own opinion with far less backing than what I said.

Well played sir, well played.

I'm going to repost what I said in another forum topic started by an equally poor NS2 player complaining about the same thing.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go ahead and nerf camo though. I honestly don't care. It is a moronic idea as is when commanders pull this poor excuse of a strategy. I would prefer breaking bad alien commanders of this belief that it's useful since we're talking about an upgrade that's already researched last on decent teams. I'm very serious when I say this, it makes no difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

SeeVee

I've read a lot of your most recent posts and they are mostly negative and insulting to the person starting the topic. Do us all a favor and stop replying, with each post you make you are making yourself look worse.


... and now back to the topic

<!--quoteo(post=2045923:date=Dec 14 2012, 06:36 PM:name=SeeVee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SeeVee @ Dec 14 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still stand with the opinion that I feel like I am using a hack when fully inviso. I think the alien should have a predator-like cloak when moving or at least pulse to this every few seconds while moving. If the alien is still and inviso I don't have an issue with that. Being able to walk almost everywhere fully inviso I do have a problem with.

a little less dramatic & minus the glowing eyes: <a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JcIe4EsmDYA/TUXEYkRbAbI/AAAAAAAABEA/kYY1nDlMTcA/s1600/predator+invisibility.jpg" target="_blank">http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JcIe4EsmDYA/TUXE...nvisibility.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->