<!--quoteo(post=2044716:date=Dec 12 2012, 07:34 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Dec 12 2012, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What bugs me is pub commanders refuse to adapt to a new strategy once they learn shade/camo is in play. Quite simply: if the commander does more scans and builds more obs, yes it is expensive and will slow down all other tech progression, but it can entirely negate and horribly backfire on the aliens. Remember the aliens are now unable to get cara AND celerity until they have 3 hives, which means either weak or slow Onos etc. Alien players rage hard in the late game if all they've got is camo heh.
Realistically, Scans, Obs and Mines are the only actual counters to camo. The rest of what you've listed are general purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I've ever ONCE been told that they have shade hive when commanding on a public server. I always have to find out for myself. I will always change my strategy immediately, but often it's too late because I have to find out on my own accord and that typically takes longer in the command station (usually it's just blind luck that you manage to see an ink, or scan for the 2nd hive and spot a shade). By the end of the game it's usually filled with 'gg nub comm didn't scan'.
Biggest problem IMO is lack of communication. The commander doesn't even know to counter if he/she doesn't know there's shade hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2044763:date=Dec 12 2012, 06:42 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 12 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think I've ever ONCE been told that they have shade hive when commanding on a public server. I always have to find out for myself. I will always change my strategy immediately, but often it's too late because I have to find out on my own accord and that typically takes longer in the command station (usually it's just blind luck that you manage to see an ink, or scan for the 2nd hive and spot a shade). By the end of the game it's usually filled with 'gg nub comm didn't scan'.
Biggest problem IMO is lack of communication. The commander doesn't even know to counter if he/she doesn't know there's shade hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet it is completely obvious they have shade tech as soon as a skulk team appears from thin air. There are plenty of clues that reveal which tech path aliens take, but you could always just scan at the 3-4 minute mark to see what upgrade chambers they have.
<!--quoteo(post=2044763:date=Dec 13 2012, 01:42 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 13 2012, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think I've ever ONCE been told that they have shade hive when commanding on a public server. I always have to find out for myself. I will always change my strategy immediately, but often it's too late because I have to find out on my own accord and that typically takes longer in the command station (usually it's just blind luck that you manage to see an ink, or scan for the 2nd hive and spot a shade). By the end of the game it's usually filled with 'gg nub comm didn't scan'.
Biggest problem IMO is lack of communication. The commander doesn't even know to counter if he/she doesn't know there's shade hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Make it your business to find out. If you can't solicit feedback, use the power of scan. When you find their upgrade chambers, you'll know. That's universally important to know because if their chambers are exposed you should encourage someone to ninja them.
You should notice it pretty quickly anyway just by watching your marines advance. If in doubt ask the marines and then scan the hive to confirm (looking for the upgrade chambers). Often marines wont say because a) they're noobs and assume they were the last to find out or b) they're vets and assume everybody has perfect situational awareness. It's up to the commander to make sure everybody knows what's going on...
..That's another thing that bugs me about pub commanders, they think their job is just about getting res and unlocking tech - wrong! - First and foremost it's about intel and strategy. Getting intel (drifters, scans, asking someone to recon), tracking/managing intel (knowing what the enemy is capable of doing next) and fostering a good strategic response (like when to rush a hive, when to hunt lifeforms, when to split up and recap res). I don't mind when people don't know due to lack of experience, but when I encourage someone to build drifters and their response is "you don't need drifters" I just flip out...
<!--quoteo(post=2044780:date=Dec 12 2012, 10:21 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Dec 12 2012, 10:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make it your business to find out. If you can't solicit feedback, use the power of scan. When you find their upgrade chambers, you'll know. That's universally important to know because if their chambers are exposed you should encourage someone to ninja them.
You should notice it pretty quickly anyway just by watching your marines advance. If in doubt ask the marines and then scan the hive to confirm (looking for the upgrade chambers). Often marines wont say because a) they're noobs and assume they were the last to find out or b) they're vets and assume everybody has perfect situational awareness. It's up to the commander to make sure everybody knows what's going on...
..That's another thing that bugs me about pub commanders, they think their job is just about getting res and unlocking tech - wrong! - First and foremost it's about intel and strategy. Getting intel (drifters, scans, asking someone to recon), tracking/managing intel (knowing what the enemy is capable of doing next) and fostering a good strategic response (like when to rush a hive, when to hunt lifeforms, when to split up and recap res). I don't mind when people don't know due to lack of experience, but when I encourage someone to build drifters and their response is "you don't need drifters" I just flip out...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's best to scan that often early game unless it's really necessary (to check for 2nd hive drop or if there's camo). Sure it's only 3 res, but it still slows things down in the early game when res is tight. You can pretty much tell where their starting hive is based on where first contact occurs, and doesn't cyst building or something show up too when you're hovering over the right location? So you can gather that intel without a scan. And knowing if they have celerity or carapace or nothing isn't all that useful to be honest, and knowing if they have camo can come from regular marines much quicker and easier (scanning on the off chance they have gone for camo is a waste considering it isn't particularly a predominant strategy, and you'll find out soon enough if your marines tell you). Best use for scan early game imo is countering base rushes. If things get quiet, usually there's a reason for it.
And sure, you can spot a camo skulk from the command interface, but it's much easier to spot as a regular marine, but if you can spot it so can the marine on the field and they should relay the information back to the commander as soon as possible, on the off chance that the commander might not have seen it (maybe doing something else elsewhere). I guess it comes down to the fact that I should change the way I play on public servers. I can't expect anybody to tell me anything really. I'm just trying to have to not waste early res finding out something my team should be able to tell me anyway.
Gathering intel is important, but it's up to the whole team to communicate stuff when they find it. And yes, drifter management is probably one of the most important parts of Alien commanding, considering the predicable build order.
I personally really dislike camo as it is. Because it is literally invisibility rather then some sort of, well, camoflage? Camo can cause something to blend if with color, or texture... instead aliens, *poof* are totally cloaked.
One of two things I would like to see, perhaps both.
1.) Aliens while moving will actively shimmer. There needs to be some disadvantage while moving with camo besides a speed decrease. I am fine with total invisibility while stationary. The problem as I am experiencing is skulks sneaking up on you in long corridor and suddenly your are bitten twice before you can react. Or heaven forbid, a 2 ton Onos walking up and goring you dead in two. Look at some real life examples of active camouflage, like the<a href="http://youtu.be/__XA6B41SQQ?t=2m16s" target="_blank"> Cuttlefish</a>.
2.) Motion trackers have already been mentioned. My spin on it would be handheld device that operate in a cone or cylinder beam that only functions within line of site. No beaming through walls or other cover. Camo aliens would be illuminated while the beam is focused on them. Unlike the welder, this device does no damage at all and would only be a way of clearing a room or corridor without having the commander constantly pinging the map. It would still allow aliens to be sneaky but also give marines something else to spend Pres on. And if you are sloppy with it, you won't spot clever aliens.
I'd love to see some statistics, but it seems most games I've played on the alien side with camo as the starting upgrade, aliens eventually lose due to how passive most players become with cloak. They just can't expand fast enough and camo has no use in stopping organised pushes by marines, due to scans/obs.
<!--quoteo(post=2044310:date=Dec 12 2012, 12:59 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Dec 12 2012, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Great scenario man -NOT, just as ambiguous as before. The second Skulks are scanned they become highly mobile and ANYTHING but stationary. You're not going to mop any floors. Walls. Anything. Unless you've a 100% kill ratio against Skulks doing their best to simply avoid bullets and escape, from FULL HEALTH.
Gah.
Oh well, I might as well stop complaining. Winning all games with camo and when someone thinks it's OP I can just bitterly laugh and tell 'em forums disagree. And the forums get one more OPsayer more. A win-win situation.
Cheers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont know if Shade first hive is OP or not but in my short NS2 experience I can san say that I much prefer Silence to Camo upgrade in my skulk first. Rack up so many more kills with silence compared to camo is insane. Silence lets you move at full speed all the way and it frees my left little finger to have to awkardly press shift every time. The tricky bit is obviously to approach the marine from a dead angle. But other than that it fully negates scan as an advantage to Marines over camo upgrading first.
Cloak is great for skulk early game, but if you don't contain the rines GG...lerk/fade/onos need Craig/shift so going shade first means you need to take a third hive to win where as if you go Craig/shift. The third hive is just a bonus....
Currently you may see a correlation between cloaking and winning, But mostly its a correlation between being aliens and winning...
<!--quoteo(post=2045011:date=Dec 13 2012, 08:25 AM:name=Viajero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Viajero @ Dec 13 2012, 08:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont know if Shade first hive is OP or not but in my short NS2 experience I can san say that I much prefer Silence to Camo upgrade in my skulk first. Rack up so many more kills with silence compared to camo is insane. Silence lets you move at full speed all the way and it frees my left little finger to have to awkardly press shift every time. The tricky bit is obviously to approach the marine from a dead angle. But other than that it fully negates scan as an advantage to Marines over camo upgrading first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2045032:date=Dec 13 2012, 06:59 PM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Dec 13 2012, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't be serious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said, its just a few weeks experience so fwiw. Just try it, in case you dont often. I guess it depends on playing style and personal preference aswell. In my case with silence I realized that once you are out of direct vision line of sight from a marine you are as good as camo. When I started trying it I was greatly surprised by what I felt was a higher degree of control on how I sneak up and kill a marine before he knows I m there. Primarily because the speed gets me there before the marine decides to move on, which will typically make him out of reach of a slow camo skulk. Also, once engaged in close quarters getting out of LOS going up and down the walls in between bites, even if it is for just a fraction of a second, prevents the marine using his best ally in tracking skulks: sound. The half second it takes the marine to scan around without a sound reference can be vital to get that last killer bite in.
Comments
Realistically, Scans, Obs and Mines are the only actual counters to camo. The rest of what you've listed are general purpose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I've ever ONCE been told that they have shade hive when commanding on a public server. I always have to find out for myself. I will always change my strategy immediately, but often it's too late because I have to find out on my own accord and that typically takes longer in the command station (usually it's just blind luck that you manage to see an ink, or scan for the 2nd hive and spot a shade). By the end of the game it's usually filled with 'gg nub comm didn't scan'.
Biggest problem IMO is lack of communication. The commander doesn't even know to counter if he/she doesn't know there's shade hive.
Biggest problem IMO is lack of communication. The commander doesn't even know to counter if he/she doesn't know there's shade hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet it is completely obvious they have shade tech as soon as a skulk team appears from thin air. There are plenty of clues that reveal which tech path aliens take, but you could always just scan at the 3-4 minute mark to see what upgrade chambers they have.
Biggest problem IMO is lack of communication. The commander doesn't even know to counter if he/she doesn't know there's shade hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make it your business to find out. If you can't solicit feedback, use the power of scan. When you find their upgrade chambers, you'll know. That's universally important to know because if their chambers are exposed you should encourage someone to ninja them.
You should notice it pretty quickly anyway just by watching your marines advance. If in doubt ask the marines and then scan the hive to confirm (looking for the upgrade chambers). Often marines wont say because a) they're noobs and assume they were the last to find out or b) they're vets and assume everybody has perfect situational awareness. It's up to the commander to make sure everybody knows what's going on...
..That's another thing that bugs me about pub commanders, they think their job is just about getting res and unlocking tech - wrong! - First and foremost it's about intel and strategy. Getting intel (drifters, scans, asking someone to recon), tracking/managing intel (knowing what the enemy is capable of doing next) and fostering a good strategic response (like when to rush a hive, when to hunt lifeforms, when to split up and recap res). I don't mind when people don't know due to lack of experience, but when I encourage someone to build drifters and their response is "you don't need drifters" I just flip out...
You should notice it pretty quickly anyway just by watching your marines advance. If in doubt ask the marines and then scan the hive to confirm (looking for the upgrade chambers). Often marines wont say because a) they're noobs and assume they were the last to find out or b) they're vets and assume everybody has perfect situational awareness. It's up to the commander to make sure everybody knows what's going on...
..That's another thing that bugs me about pub commanders, they think their job is just about getting res and unlocking tech - wrong! - First and foremost it's about intel and strategy. Getting intel (drifters, scans, asking someone to recon), tracking/managing intel (knowing what the enemy is capable of doing next) and fostering a good strategic response (like when to rush a hive, when to hunt lifeforms, when to split up and recap res). I don't mind when people don't know due to lack of experience, but when I encourage someone to build drifters and their response is "you don't need drifters" I just flip out...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's best to scan that often early game unless it's really necessary (to check for 2nd hive drop or if there's camo). Sure it's only 3 res, but it still slows things down in the early game when res is tight. You can pretty much tell where their starting hive is based on where first contact occurs, and doesn't cyst building or something show up too when you're hovering over the right location? So you can gather that intel without a scan. And knowing if they have celerity or carapace or nothing isn't all that useful to be honest, and knowing if they have camo can come from regular marines much quicker and easier (scanning on the off chance they have gone for camo is a waste considering it isn't particularly a predominant strategy, and you'll find out soon enough if your marines tell you). Best use for scan early game imo is countering base rushes. If things get quiet, usually there's a reason for it.
And sure, you can spot a camo skulk from the command interface, but it's much easier to spot as a regular marine, but if you can spot it so can the marine on the field and they should relay the information back to the commander as soon as possible, on the off chance that the commander might not have seen it (maybe doing something else elsewhere). I guess it comes down to the fact that I should change the way I play on public servers. I can't expect anybody to tell me anything really. I'm just trying to have to not waste early res finding out something my team should be able to tell me anyway.
Gathering intel is important, but it's up to the whole team to communicate stuff when they find it. And yes, drifter management is probably one of the most important parts of Alien commanding, considering the predicable build order.
One of two things I would like to see, perhaps both.
1.) Aliens while moving will actively shimmer. There needs to be some disadvantage while moving with camo besides a speed decrease. I am fine with total invisibility while stationary. The problem as I am experiencing is skulks sneaking up on you in long corridor and suddenly your are bitten twice before you can react. Or heaven forbid, a 2 ton Onos walking up and goring you dead in two. Look at some real life examples of active camouflage, like the<a href="http://youtu.be/__XA6B41SQQ?t=2m16s" target="_blank"> Cuttlefish</a>.
2.) Motion trackers have already been mentioned. My spin on it would be handheld device that operate in a cone or cylinder beam that only functions within line of site. No beaming through walls or other cover. Camo aliens would be illuminated while the beam is focused on them. Unlike the welder, this device does no damage at all and would only be a way of clearing a room or corridor without having the commander constantly pinging the map. It would still allow aliens to be sneaky but also give marines something else to spend Pres on. And if you are sloppy with it, you won't spot clever aliens.
Every single time someone has a bad game the forums light up with moans.
Its healthy to share your frustrations though, keeps you from going mad. <3 xx
Gah.
Oh well, I might as well stop complaining. Winning all games with camo and when someone thinks it's OP I can just bitterly laugh and tell 'em forums disagree. And the forums get one more OPsayer more. A win-win situation.
Cheers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont know if Shade first hive is OP or not but in my short NS2 experience I can san say that I much prefer Silence to Camo upgrade in my skulk first. Rack up so many more kills with silence compared to camo is insane. Silence lets you move at full speed all the way and it frees my left little finger to have to awkardly press shift every time. The tricky bit is obviously to approach the marine from a dead angle. But other than that it fully negates scan as an advantage to Marines over camo upgrading first.
Currently you may see a correlation between cloaking and winning, But mostly its a correlation between being aliens and winning...
You can't be serious.
As I said, its just a few weeks experience so fwiw. Just try it, in case you dont often. I guess it depends on playing style and personal preference aswell. In my case with silence I realized that once you are out of direct vision line of sight from a marine you are as good as camo. When I started trying it I was greatly surprised by what I felt was a higher degree of control on how I sneak up and kill a marine before he knows I m there. Primarily because the speed gets me there before the marine decides to move on, which will typically make him out of reach of a slow camo skulk. Also, once engaged in close quarters getting out of LOS going up and down the walls in between bites, even if it is for just a fraction of a second, prevents the marine using his best ally in tracking skulks: sound. The half second it takes the marine to scan around without a sound reference can be vital to get that last killer bite in.