<!--quoteo(post=2044076:date=Dec 11 2012, 05:21 PM:name=Burdock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burdock @ Dec 11 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Demos record everything on screen from the first person perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're using a hook injection hack once u turn it off they are not viewable by anyone else watching your demo of yourself. WHAT now?
<!--quoteo(post=2044080:date=Dec 11 2012, 05:25 PM:name=nezz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nezz @ Dec 11 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're using a hook injection hack once u turn it off they are not viewable by anyone else watching your demo of yourself. WHAT now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Demos are not perfect, but they do record everything that happened that game... And you could tell there doing it by draw DMG:P
Burdock, You missed my point completely. Let me re-phrase as it could be hard to understnad.
If i was wallhacking and demoed it. Yes i'm able to see skulks thru walls. if i replay without loading the wallhack i wouldnt be able to see them even thou initially recording while playing with walls. This im sure off as it has been tested in previous games. Unless theres a different code in LUA.
However i will stand corrected if this is not the case and in that case i'm a fool. Possibly worth testing?
<!--quoteo(post=2044084:date=Dec 11 2012, 05:30 PM:name=nezz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nezz @ Dec 11 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Burdock, You missed my point completely. Let me re-phrase as it could be hard to understnad.
If i was wallhacking and demoed it. Yes i'm able to see skulks thru walls. if i replay without loading the wallhack i wouldnt be able to see them even thou initially recording while playing with walls. This im sure off as it has been tested in previous games. Unless theres a different code in LUA.
However i will stand corrected if this is not the case and in that case i'm a fool. Possibly worth testing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hooks(texture based wall hacks) have a tendency to give them selves away in demos. There are some wall hack that can get around this though.
Cheating is a fact of life in online multiplayer games. While it is no doubt occurring occasionally, it is not presently a major issue. No game can eliminate cheating, no developer can create a hack-free play-space. Broadly, there are two directions a developer can go in.
1. The first is 'lock-down.' The game experience is tightly controlled, dedicated community servers are eliminated, a central server infrastructure tracks the game. Hackers are identified and banned by statistical analysis or detection of naughty modifications to the game.
2. The second is 'open-up.' The game experience is a wild west, in which anyone can modify and mutate the game as they please. The community can run servers, the developer does not keep tabs on individual players. Hackers are identified and banned by community members, <b>who can decide who comes to their servers and the circumstances under which they come.</b>
The first option is the COD option. It is increasingly the AAA industry norm. The second option is the NS2 option, and we are certainly going against the grain. The second option makes several assumptions about the NS2 community:
1. Server capacity is primarily provided by the community 2. The incidence of community participation in game management is higher than normal 3. There are significantly more 'good guys' than 'bad guys.'
We are confident these assumptions are correct. As NS2 admin tools are improved, and as modded admin tools (such as NS2Stats) improve, the ability of the community to track and ban hackers across servers will improve. NS2 is going to be around for a long time, it will be supported for a long time. Evading passionate admins is only going to get harder.
We do not, however, leave anti-cheat entirely up to you. As mentioned, consistency checking will catch amateur lua-hackers. More stringent consistency checking is a server admin option and can catch mediocre lua-hackers. Beyond that, we enter dark territory. Territory in which motivated individuals can and will always find ways to manipulate the game engine.
There are three primary defences here.
1. <b>Size and uniqueness</b>. NS2 is a relatively small game, running on a unique engine. Spark is like a shield. Whereas Source has an entire library of illicitly available hacks, Spark is a small market and not lucrative for nefarious chaps to write and sell hacks for. NS2 has sold and continues to sell so well that UWE will be around for a long time to come. But we can also take pride in and recognise the benefits of the relatively small size of our niche, passionate player-base.
2. <b>Game design</b>. Games that 'reward' progress through tangible in game unlocks, such as weapon attachments and cool skins, tend to suffer higher incidences of hacking. This is why MMOs with tie-ins to IRL currencies have to employ dedicated anti-cheat personnel. In NS2, there is no such incentive beyond trolling. Of course some people get off on that enough to hang around in a few servers for a few hours, just like they do in CS, but the incentive is objectively and significantly lower than if their cheating can reward them in tangible ways.
3. <b>VAC</b>. Contrary to popular belief, VAC is fully implemented in NS2 and Spark. There are many misconceptions about how VAC works, what it does, and what its capabilities are. Suffice to say, if you do use a hack in NS2, it is possible that you will one day wake up to your entire Steam account being irretrievably lost. You can bet that when you come crying to the Steam forums, or to our forums, about how you were 'wrongly VAC banned,' neither I or anyone else will give you quarter.
As NS2 is further developed, more and more defences will be added. Universal ban lists, first person spectate, and more are all coming. If you've had an experience with a 100-0 player ruining the game for you, we are sorry. But don't let it get to you. We've all had that happen, it will continue to occasionally happen, and hackers only win if we as a community stop enjoying the 99% hack-free experience because of that one bad encounter.
Because this thread has developed a consistently nasty tone, and because I don't want this reply to be buried in selective-quote nitpicking posts, I'm going to lock it. Don't hate!
Comments
If you're using a hook injection hack once u turn it off they are not viewable by anyone else watching your demo of yourself. WHAT now?
Demos are not perfect, but they do record everything that happened that game...
And you could tell there doing it by draw DMG:P
If i was wallhacking and demoed it. Yes i'm able to see skulks thru walls. if i replay without loading the wallhack i wouldnt be able to see them even thou initially recording while playing with walls. This im sure off as it has been tested in previous games. Unless theres a different code in LUA.
However i will stand corrected if this is not the case and in that case i'm a fool. Possibly worth testing?
If i was wallhacking and demoed it. Yes i'm able to see skulks thru walls. if i replay without loading the wallhack i wouldnt be able to see them even thou initially recording while playing with walls. This im sure off as it has been tested in previous games. Unless theres a different code in LUA.
However i will stand corrected if this is not the case and in that case i'm a fool. Possibly worth testing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hooks(texture based wall hacks) have a tendency to give them selves away in demos.
There are some wall hack that can get around this though.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/mjwf2.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
1. The first is 'lock-down.' The game experience is tightly controlled, dedicated community servers are eliminated, a central server infrastructure tracks the game. Hackers are identified and banned by statistical analysis or detection of naughty modifications to the game.
2. The second is 'open-up.' The game experience is a wild west, in which anyone can modify and mutate the game as they please. The community can run servers, the developer does not keep tabs on individual players. Hackers are identified and banned by community members, <b>who can decide who comes to their servers and the circumstances under which they come.</b>
The first option is the COD option. It is increasingly the AAA industry norm. The second option is the NS2 option, and we are certainly going against the grain. The second option makes several assumptions about the NS2 community:
1. Server capacity is primarily provided by the community
2. The incidence of community participation in game management is higher than normal
3. There are significantly more 'good guys' than 'bad guys.'
We are confident these assumptions are correct. As NS2 admin tools are improved, and as modded admin tools (such as NS2Stats) improve, the ability of the community to track and ban hackers across servers will improve. NS2 is going to be around for a long time, it will be supported for a long time. Evading passionate admins is only going to get harder.
We do not, however, leave anti-cheat entirely up to you. As mentioned, consistency checking will catch amateur lua-hackers. More stringent consistency checking is a server admin option and can catch mediocre lua-hackers. Beyond that, we enter dark territory. Territory in which motivated individuals can and will always find ways to manipulate the game engine.
There are three primary defences here.
1. <b>Size and uniqueness</b>. NS2 is a relatively small game, running on a unique engine. Spark is like a shield. Whereas Source has an entire library of illicitly available hacks, Spark is a small market and not lucrative for nefarious chaps to write and sell hacks for. NS2 has sold and continues to sell so well that UWE will be around for a long time to come. But we can also take pride in and recognise the benefits of the relatively small size of our niche, passionate player-base.
2. <b>Game design</b>. Games that 'reward' progress through tangible in game unlocks, such as weapon attachments and cool skins, tend to suffer higher incidences of hacking. This is why MMOs with tie-ins to IRL currencies have to employ dedicated anti-cheat personnel. In NS2, there is no such incentive beyond trolling. Of course some people get off on that enough to hang around in a few servers for a few hours, just like they do in CS, but the incentive is objectively and significantly lower than if their cheating can reward them in tangible ways.
3. <b>VAC</b>. Contrary to popular belief, VAC is fully implemented in NS2 and Spark. There are many misconceptions about how VAC works, what it does, and what its capabilities are. Suffice to say, if you do use a hack in NS2, it is possible that you will one day wake up to your entire Steam account being irretrievably lost. You can bet that when you come crying to the Steam forums, or to our forums, about how you were 'wrongly VAC banned,' neither I or anyone else will give you quarter.
As NS2 is further developed, more and more defences will be added. Universal ban lists, first person spectate, and more are all coming. If you've had an experience with a 100-0 player ruining the game for you, we are sorry. But don't let it get to you. We've all had that happen, it will continue to occasionally happen, and hackers only win if we as a community stop enjoying the 99% hack-free experience because of that one bad encounter.
Because this thread has developed a consistently nasty tone, and because I don't want this reply to be buried in selective-quote nitpicking posts, I'm going to lock it. Don't hate!