Marine Masacre
Troubleshooter
Join Date: 2012-11-15 Member: 171559Members
Join Date: 2012-11-15 Member: 171559Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Weekend Wrapup</div>So, two weekends in a row, its been 95% alien wins on UWE official servers. I wonder if UWE are running some server stats collection on who wins rounds and in what time... if they do, the EU UWE servers should looks like a nightmare of win/loss statistics.
From my perspective, its a completely one sided game right now. Aliens have all the advantages and it shows.
The few losses I've seen on the alien side are due to stacked teams breaking cyst chains and starving alien commanders who can't rally their troops and shade first fail. Thats just about it. In regular pub play, marines are getting murdered by even silly strategy.
Opinions vary about the cause : Performance issues, poor coordination, marine commanders who wont use a mic (even when they have one) and failed all-in's.
One thing is for sure... the balance skews heavy aliens right now... and don't even get me started on Refinery, that map is a marine slaughter house. Flow control should have a big neon sign in the middle of it saying "Just F4 Now!"
Just to prove a point to myself, I did two interesting things. One, I commanded a game on Docking where I build nothing but cysts and RT's... thats it... no upgrades and just claim the map. My skulk buddies, without upgrades, were able to completely box in the marines to the point I dropped 3 hives and crapped out onos eggs like it was going out of style. Second, I joined a game and immediately ejected the alien com. No one wanted to com, it was only a 4 v 4, and with only 2 RT's we just rushed and won because Marines can't get out of sprint distance from the main base without losing (including PG's). BONUS ROUND : Docking again, I just spammed cysts from Departures to landing pad, built 3 shifts and 100000 eggs... ez win.
I know there's no way this crap would have worked against an organized team... and I'm fairly sure that a few of the alien players on this server were stacking together intentionally... but it was a marathon of marine death that just never ended no matter how the teams stacked up.
Pub play seems really broken right now... sigh.
PS: Oh, and the number of marine comm rage quits is starting to skyrocket from my perspective too. Everything from the team blaming the Comm and him just leaving the server to early recycles because the marines cant get 2 secured RT's by 3 minutes. There is clear marine frustration out there, and its killing games in the cradle.
From my perspective, its a completely one sided game right now. Aliens have all the advantages and it shows.
The few losses I've seen on the alien side are due to stacked teams breaking cyst chains and starving alien commanders who can't rally their troops and shade first fail. Thats just about it. In regular pub play, marines are getting murdered by even silly strategy.
Opinions vary about the cause : Performance issues, poor coordination, marine commanders who wont use a mic (even when they have one) and failed all-in's.
One thing is for sure... the balance skews heavy aliens right now... and don't even get me started on Refinery, that map is a marine slaughter house. Flow control should have a big neon sign in the middle of it saying "Just F4 Now!"
Just to prove a point to myself, I did two interesting things. One, I commanded a game on Docking where I build nothing but cysts and RT's... thats it... no upgrades and just claim the map. My skulk buddies, without upgrades, were able to completely box in the marines to the point I dropped 3 hives and crapped out onos eggs like it was going out of style. Second, I joined a game and immediately ejected the alien com. No one wanted to com, it was only a 4 v 4, and with only 2 RT's we just rushed and won because Marines can't get out of sprint distance from the main base without losing (including PG's). BONUS ROUND : Docking again, I just spammed cysts from Departures to landing pad, built 3 shifts and 100000 eggs... ez win.
I know there's no way this crap would have worked against an organized team... and I'm fairly sure that a few of the alien players on this server were stacking together intentionally... but it was a marathon of marine death that just never ended no matter how the teams stacked up.
Pub play seems really broken right now... sigh.
PS: Oh, and the number of marine comm rage quits is starting to skyrocket from my perspective too. Everything from the team blaming the Comm and him just leaving the server to early recycles because the marines cant get 2 secured RT's by 3 minutes. There is clear marine frustration out there, and its killing games in the cradle.
Comments
I don't think its so much balance issues as it is FPS refusing to stay constant and the odd hit detection.
On paper, the game seems fine to me too. I don't see how its so heavily skewed to the aliens right now, but I will tell you that what I do see is that in any close-spawn situation, the marines can't move. Take sub-access/flight control for example. As a marine, I can move to vent and build, but I can get hit by skulks coming through cross before I've even got the power node up. Meanwhile, there's a blender happening at computer lab where the aliens are just running into marines on their way through to cut off our expansion. Because the sight lines at vent make it impossible to leverage the ranged advantage, all combat happens near melee range... if the skulks have even numbers, its generally going to be a marine route. All the while, the alien com is happily dumping Tres on new RT's and tech and the marine are making no progress economically while bleeding out on med-packs and recycled infrastructure.
Thats not just one game I'm reciting from memory, thats EVERY game I played on summit with close spawns this weekend. Marines get boxed into their main, maybe get a PG to datacore and still lose vent, but it ends the same with lots of teeth and blood.
Now, as I said its not totally hopeless... but it seems that provided that the alien comm focuses on macro-game economics and the skulks aren't retarded, the marines just get buried in cysts and choked to death.
The situation on Veil isn't much better... with most marine wins happening due to an alien-pipeworks spawn... denying marines expansions isn't even hard.
L2P is hardly the issue here. This is pub gaming, full of casual gamers with very different levels of commitment. Assuming the win % official stats back this alleged unabalance then no one remotely reasonable can expect pub gamers will ever go through the learning curve that apparently you require them to go through.
L2Constructively Discuss. The OP puts forward a good argument and you're being an ignorant little b****
He's not being ignorant, he's saying that if people don't know how to play the game the game won't be balanced for those games because it isn't functioning how it should. He's saying there needs to be something helping players learn more than there is right now.
The only thing I got from your post is that your a d-bag, if your going to eject a com YOU better be ready to step up and com, no ###### "no one wanted to com" you ejected the last guy... Oh and before you say the com was trolling and that's why you ejected him explain how no com is better then a troll com...
...but l2p IS the issue. Seriously. It has nothing to do with acquiring the twitch-aim skills and all to do with learning to follow orders and how to work as a team, which is something the marines just straight up don't do.
<!--quoteo(post=2042490:date=Dec 9 2012, 10:20 AM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Dec 9 2012, 10:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On paper, the game seems fine to me too. I don't see how its so heavily skewed to the aliens right now, but I will tell you that what I do see is that <b>in any close-spawn situation, the marines can't move.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Close-spawn situations<i> should</i> mean an early marine rush to the hive and a fast loss for the Aliens. This is where the l2p comment comes in, marines just straight up don't know what to do. The fact that I get ######ed at for not buying sentries in almost every game I com is just sad... all the marines just want to turtle and that's why they lose. Can't win a game if you never leave your corner of the map.
1.) Leave things are they are. The L2P argument. Hope that newer players stick with the game and get better. Historically doing nothing is a death sentence…for just about everything, but who knows, maybe those L2P people are right.
2.) Change the game to encourage marines to be more aggressive. Things like moving res nodes closer to their main. (Maps like Refinery and Veil are an example of marines just unable to get a footing) Maybe remove glancing bites, I’m not sure. Honestly I think the biggest thing marines need now is at least one or two reliable nodes they can capture without it being a harassment filled bloodbath just to have one or two nodes on some maps.
3.) If you can’t change the way people play, accommodate the way they do play. Make some accommodations for a more viable marine “turtle†of sorts. Sure to be an unpopular option with all the elite pros roaming about, but sometimes you have consider joining em when you can’t beat em. Getting pub marines to play more aggressive could be like herding cats.
That's the spirit, lmfao.
I wonder, what those 3500 players thought, before uninstalling this game.
NS2 might be balanced for pro-players. But 95% are casual players. And that's the current situation - players just drop the game.
Close-spawn situations SHOULD mean an early marine rush to the hive and a fast loss for the Aliens. This is where the l2p comment comes in, marines just straight up don't know what to do. The fact that I get ######ed at for not buying sentries in almost every game I com is just sad... all the marines just want to turtle and that's why they lose. Can't win a game if you never leave your corner of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are some learn to play issues, but it's hard to track a skulk moving at you with <10 fps. The competitive players seem to use high end computers. I know my scores are significantly better on the combat games (and I get much better performance). I'm not sure if that is reflecting the quality of opponent or not, but I definitely feel like I'm connecting more shots. It doesn't matter how aggressive you are, or what build order you use; if you lose 2 marines to every 1 skulk, you're just giving the game to the aliens.
In the pub games I play, the marines seem to know the objective. They expand really fast in the beginning, and conquer over half the map. If aliens start with 20p-res it only takes them a few minutes to get to lerk. Then you have these flying ###### all around that are almost impossible to kill, because their hit boxes are so dam small. I don't even think you can shoot their wings and register a hit. Once 10-15 minutes goes by onos are on the board whether the alien khamm has anything to do with it or not. The marines don't really have anything that can 1v1 an onos. If it takes 4 marines to kill 1 onos, and the alien team has 2 onos, that's a huge advantage the aliens have. If you have a dual exo, you can't flee from anything or chase an onos down.
The design philosophy seems to be, marines have to attack in packs. Aliens can kinda rambo until they need a push. Except, once marines expand a certain amount, it's nearly impossible for them to defend all their positions in packs. If marines don't win before the 15 minute mark, all the aliens need is for 3 players to save enough p-res for an onos, and it's game over. In a nutshell, if marines don't do everything right, the aliens win by default. Simply because all they need is p-res. Back in ns1 you couldn't go onos until hive 3 got up. Now you can have everyone go onos with a single hive.
If the performance improved significantly, I think we would see things swing back into the middle.
If no one on the marine team however can aim, and a lot of them can't these days it seems (due to performance or whatever) then it's most certainly a GG of course.
So yea, please don't skew balance until you've actually fixed performance and hit reg.
Alien harvesters need to build slowly without gorges.
Alien harvesters need less HP.
Marine extractors need to be upgradable to be electrified.
People still need to L2P marines though. Marines play tends to be secure room, build extractor, secure room, build extractor. Rarely do marines halt to try and hold down an area; marine play tends to make players oblivious to the implications of their decisions. Alien play, however, is monotonous most of the time. Attack marines, kill RTs, attack marines, kill RTs. Aliens usually don't have to defend, their playstyle naturally enhances aggression in both its capacity and player mindset.
Also, pugs are jokes.
Don't read too much into it. I was playing on that server for hours, 3 guys on that server stacked for about 2 hours together, aliens in every game but two. Once the server was down to literally just the 3 stacking guys and myself on the alien team vs 5 marines, I ejected one of them as soon as I joined the match (late because I was camping the alien portal with 3 other players). The whole point was to handicap those players in particular, to see if they could continue winning in spite of setbacks. They did... no problem. I wanted to see if they could overcome a minute or so of being commander-less at the start of the round, something that cripples marines usually... all it did was ensure that all 4 of us as skulks hit the marine base together and won.
Anyway, I'm not all rainbows and sunshine in game either, I'm not trying to paint a picture that I'm always "the good guy"... but my original post does leave out a lot of information that might lead to believe that I was targeting random players for griefing. This wasn't the case... these players were clearly pub stomping and I was just running some experiments on them which I figure was fair given their incessant stacking. And, FWIW, they lost as marines when they went marine too... and they also had the option to eject me as well when I was commanding them and choose to just go ahead and play it out when I warned them at the start what I was going to do.
No one complained.
You're oversimplifying a complex situation and it will leed to nothing but dwindling player counts because nothing gets fixed as players simply need to smart-up and skill-up.
Learn 2 play... ahhhhh
Classic.
Yeah, cause that's THE problem. Gamers doing it wrong...
I agree that aliens seem to win more than lose.
I still encounter great marine matches, but few and far between.
Mineshaft and refinery are often complete massacres.
The game is getting in a better and better stae, but it's still not quite there yet.
I won't speculate on the exact cause, but there are maps that seem to require some revisions.
I see teams of marine commit to try to keep skylight and topo and lose them over and over and over. Same with the closer nodes in refinery.
It shouldn't be that hard to defend your closest ressource nodes.
It shouldn't be that hard to defend your closest ressource nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I com marines, I basically tell the team to ignore Topo and Transit respectively... I'd rather take and hold a tech point and just one RT long enough to kick the aliens off the middle of the map than try to defend everywhere with PG's that are easy alien targets of opportunity.
It doesn't really work though. I mean, I've had some success doing it but its damn hard to get all your team focused that early in the game to ignore what are obviously "easy" resource points and just push in one direction together. Some stragglers will always wander off and make a nuisance of themselves... leaving the core strategy easier to counter.
The key difference is that the marines need the troops to build and secure an area where the aliens can wander around and pick off anything not defended. SG's don't do it, I'll just burn through skulks until that battery is dead or get one other skulk to go in with me and the SG farm is useless. PG's cost less than a SG farm, but getting pub players to actually use them is another matter.
Its fair to say there is a huge L2P issue with the game. Gunplay isn't intuitive, aiming is difficult, the crosshairs obscure small targets beyond 20 or 30 meters away, hit reg is spotty... marines don't know that the pistol is basically a sniper rifle... no ADS. I think the problem is that on top of the L2P issues are the technical issues... but if I understand it correctly the present state of the Onos is due to a technical issue, and so they redesigned it to fit the game as-is. I think its fair to give the basic marine design the same treatment.
If marines can't shoot, at least SG's are accurate... maybe they need to be buffed or allow more to be built in an area... or like someone else mentioned, bring in welding doors/vents to funnel aliens better.
I wonder, what those 3500 players thought, before uninstalling this game.
NS2 might be balanced for pro-players. But 95% are casual players. And that's the current situation - players just drop the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people who quit playing stopped because of performance, not balance.
Same with saying it's only a problem with the game
Marine not pushing,that's a l2p problem that pop up pretty much in every game and can get to ridiculous levels..
I had a game a few days ago on refinery where we had 2 dual exos right outside the starting hive...That refused to turn around the last corner on the road from pipe and kept firing at the hive from outside (needless to say,5 crags and 2 gorges made that totally useless,and we had to focus so much on trying to keep them alive that aliens took over all the rest of the map).And i'm not even touching all the "lets focus nanogrid/lava falls and let the aliens take 3 hives and 7 harvesters"...
The fact that aliens seems to be able to win easily (and more so than what the marines could do in theory) just stalling the game (keep harrassing res towers with skulks/lerks while the khammander expands and saves for onos etc etc etc) is a game problem
Honestly,i didn't manage to play a good game as marine in the last...2 weeks,almost (but the increase in fps drops since last patch might have helped with that too)
The marines can't get jetpacks or Exos to counter those Onos if they don't hold a second tech point.
But a few aliens on a team can save their res for the entire game and then become a mighty Onos force even if they were locked down into a single Hive for the majority of the game. While having a 2-Hive requirement for Fades (and I think Lerks) and a 3-Hive requirement for Onos was too much, having no restriction at all seems too less.
If more advanced lifeforms than Gorges would have to be researched by the khammander once before being usable, it could balance things out a bit and add more decisions that the khammander has to make with the resources he has.
The Lerk could be researchable with 1 Hive for 20 res and take 30 seconds to research. The Fade could require 2 Hives and cost 40 res. And the Onos could be a 3-Hive lifeform and cost 40 res, though it might also imaginable to make it available for 2 Hives already but at a higher cost and research time, simply to add a delay to it's appearance in the game if aliens don't have enough map control.
Once researched, the lifeforms would stay available even after losing that Hive.
Similar to how aliens can lock marine jetpacks and Exos down by preventing a second Command Station, marines could prevent Onos entirely by preventing a third or second Hive.
Though I admit that the idea is not well thought through. Changing the Onos balance might achieve the same.