Stop whining/L2P/More nodal commanding
beyond.wudge
Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
This is going to be short and straight to the point.
1) "Marines are losing pub games; Aliens are OP/Nerf them"
In short, the community needs to learn how to play the game better. There is a lot of 'I just want to win' going on and not a lot of 'how can I do this better?'
Look at the first page of topics on this forum to see there is very little 'how to play' and a lot of 'make me able to win.'
This game has been released, it isn't a beta anymore, start working things out and talking about them. We have an unprecedented ability to share images and video with one another than any other community has had before.
And instead of giving us the 'omgosh teamwork is the solution but nobody works as a team' you instead start asking yourself how can you get teamwork to happen. Social skills are as important in a team as physical skills. Believe it or not teamwork is a culture we live in not a magical event that we can't control.
2) "Teamwork is so hard (omgosh)"
**philosophical stuff**
In short, the machine control model this game uses is clashing with Gen Y who are less hierarchical and more nodal in their productivity (i.e. multiple equals working together vs one superior and his underlings). I think UWE appreciates in a small studio how having one bossman who controls everything that goes on is a very old production line idea for a time when technology required that limitation. This is not the industrial age, we don't need that old model of control where it doesn't fit.
This game is designed around the one bossman and his minion followers. Because westerners play it the bossman issue isn't nearly as pronounced because people just eject the bossman/abuse him and elect someone else if things aren't working. However, it doesn't really fix the issue that this game is all about the one bossman and his underlings.
**concrete stuff**
Half of this game's problems stem from the way building is done. Both the players and the commander must have the ability to build buildings (and I mean all of them). If we are going to change something this is where its at.
Give Gorge's a build menu. Give welders a secondary fire that opens a building menu. Use PRes for the time being. Screw the 'pure RTS' model.
If social controls can't handle the power relationships (which we know they can from NS1 Aliens) then some very simple 'comm can ban X player from building' toggles can tide the community over. Also, some basic flexibility in the Alien tech structure (i.e. can devolve a hive and re-evolve it to something else) would also represent a long warranted fix to basic issues that already exist.
;tldr Teamwork isn't one man telling everyone else what to do. It's about everyone having equal power but agreeing with each other how to use their power (i.e. dropping the tech the team needs not the tech you want). Every player needs a way, via Gorge or Welder-like-thing, to drop buildings. This will fix a lot of the issues with the current game.
1) "Marines are losing pub games; Aliens are OP/Nerf them"
In short, the community needs to learn how to play the game better. There is a lot of 'I just want to win' going on and not a lot of 'how can I do this better?'
Look at the first page of topics on this forum to see there is very little 'how to play' and a lot of 'make me able to win.'
This game has been released, it isn't a beta anymore, start working things out and talking about them. We have an unprecedented ability to share images and video with one another than any other community has had before.
And instead of giving us the 'omgosh teamwork is the solution but nobody works as a team' you instead start asking yourself how can you get teamwork to happen. Social skills are as important in a team as physical skills. Believe it or not teamwork is a culture we live in not a magical event that we can't control.
2) "Teamwork is so hard (omgosh)"
**philosophical stuff**
In short, the machine control model this game uses is clashing with Gen Y who are less hierarchical and more nodal in their productivity (i.e. multiple equals working together vs one superior and his underlings). I think UWE appreciates in a small studio how having one bossman who controls everything that goes on is a very old production line idea for a time when technology required that limitation. This is not the industrial age, we don't need that old model of control where it doesn't fit.
This game is designed around the one bossman and his minion followers. Because westerners play it the bossman issue isn't nearly as pronounced because people just eject the bossman/abuse him and elect someone else if things aren't working. However, it doesn't really fix the issue that this game is all about the one bossman and his underlings.
**concrete stuff**
Half of this game's problems stem from the way building is done. Both the players and the commander must have the ability to build buildings (and I mean all of them). If we are going to change something this is where its at.
Give Gorge's a build menu. Give welders a secondary fire that opens a building menu. Use PRes for the time being. Screw the 'pure RTS' model.
If social controls can't handle the power relationships (which we know they can from NS1 Aliens) then some very simple 'comm can ban X player from building' toggles can tide the community over. Also, some basic flexibility in the Alien tech structure (i.e. can devolve a hive and re-evolve it to something else) would also represent a long warranted fix to basic issues that already exist.
;tldr Teamwork isn't one man telling everyone else what to do. It's about everyone having equal power but agreeing with each other how to use their power (i.e. dropping the tech the team needs not the tech you want). Every player needs a way, via Gorge or Welder-like-thing, to drop buildings. This will fix a lot of the issues with the current game.
Comments
can't learn how to get high framerate...
can't learn how to deal with bad netcode...
aliens still win
My best advice for newer Marine Players: <b><i>Check your map often</i></b>
My best advice for newer Alien Players: <b><i>Check your map often</i></b>
<u><b>Bonus:</b></u> Ask your comm for drifters if he / she doesn't use them
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In short, the machine control model this game uses is clashing with Gen Y who are less hierarchical and more nodal in their productivity (i.e. multiple equals working together vs one superior and his underlings). I think UWE appreciates in a small studio how having one bossman who controls everything that goes on is a very old production line idea for a time when technology required that limitation. This is not the industrial age, we don't need that old model of control where it doesn't fit.
This game is designed around the one bossman and his minion followers. Because westerners play it the bossman issue isn't nearly as pronounced because people just eject the bossman/abuse him and elect someone else if things aren't working. However, it doesn't really fix the issue that this game is all about the one bossman and his underlings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
RTS games require efficiency. I can't think of an example of a real world organization that would be considered highly efficient by anyone's standard that doesn't assign someone the role of "overseer" or "production manager". This person doesn't necessarily need to be a dictator, but this person is fundamental to the expedition of efficient teamwork in real world work groups or social groups.
That's just one of the basic tenants of getting ###### done. "Generation Y" doesn't invalidate that.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->**concrete stuff**
Half of this game's problems stem from the way building is done. Both the players and the commander must have the ability to build buildings (and I mean all of them). If we are going to change something this is where its at.
Give Gorge's a build menu. Give welders a secondary fire that opens a building menu. Use PRes for the time being. Screw the 'pure RTS' model.
If social controls can't handle the power relationships (which we know they can from NS1 Aliens) then some very simple 'comm can ban X player from building' toggles can tide the community over. Also, some basic flexibility in the Alien tech structure (i.e. can devolve a hive and re-evolve it to something else) would also represent a long warranted fix to basic issues that already exist.
;tldr Teamwork isn't one man telling everyone else what to do. It's about everyone having equal power but agreeing with each other how to use their power (i.e. dropping the tech the team needs not the tech you want). Every player needs a way, via Gorge or Welder-like-thing, to drop buildings. This will fix a lot of the issues with the current game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This really just feels like it spreads the problem that already exists around, it doesn't fix anything, or even coming close to fixing anything. It just makes efficiency of the tasks we're required to complete in this game more difficult to achieve. To me that just sounds incredibly frustrating, I see absolutely nothing of value coming from that idea.
<u><b>Bonus:</b></u> Ask your comm for drifters if he / she doesn't use them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh god, that just reminded me how ignorant people can get if they refuse to use drifters, especialy if they lose 3-4 res towers because nobody knew the rines were comming.. 'waste of res' 'pointless'.......
Oh derp.
Just because you don't understand how it could work doesn't mean it can't work. This knee jerk is common but it is just a cultural bias and more emotional than anything else.
Just because you don't understand how it could work doesn't mean it can't work. This knee jerk is common but it is just a cultural bias and more emotional than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I'm glad it's true because you say it's true.
I do understand how it works, it's not untenable, it's just not efficient. Valve uses a fairly similar model, it works well for unconstrained problems where creativity will be the largest factor in success. NS2 is not that. NS2 is about squeezing the most juice out of a stubborn cheese wheel, just like every other RTS is. In problems where there aren't divergent solutions, coordination is key for reaching solutions in the most effective way. I know exactly the thing you're talking about, I just have enough experience in both models to tell you it's not a universal solution. It works in some situations and spectacularly fails in others.
My best advice for newer Marine Players: <b><i>Check your map often</i></b>
My best advice for newer Alien Players: <b><i>Check your map often</i></b>
<u><b>Bonus:</b></u> Ask your comm for drifters if he / she doesn't use them
-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Post an image up showing them where they should be looking. Believe it or not checking the map doesn't always lead to understanding it. Give them something concrete to work with that they can reverse-engineer the rest from.
I get the sense a lot of new players need the early/mid/late game narrative built up for them to assimilate the information they are seeing into. They need expectations to be able to work with and against.
Some examples of the basic steps a player's mind needs to go on as he gets better.
First level: When I spawn I pick a direction and go to the nearest res tower to build it.
Second level: When I spawn I check that people are going to both res towers and if nobody is going one way I will go that way to cap it.
Third level: When I spawn I will cap a res tower and then check the closest hive for an expansion.
Fourth level: When I spawn I will cap, check for a hive and then move to set up a siege point for the push.
Fifth level: Assuming the above; if the push fails I will go and defend a tech point for setting up the second base or to deny the alien's third hive.
Conveying these basic ideas through the player culture would take time but probably do a lot for the teamwork and balance in the game.
No, it won't.
Let's put aside the fact that in competitive games the win/loss ratio if even WORSE for marines than in pubs. (Marines only win 35% in competitive games, they win 42% in pubs) You would think these competitive players would "learn to play the game better" and it would all balance out. However, let's put that little factoid aside for now.
The reality is that you don't balance the game for the 'ideal' player since the majority of players are anything but. Balance doesn't work that way. The game should be balanced regardless of the kinds of players playing, unless the teams are deliberately stacked. So if you have all new players playing a game, the outcome should be as balanced as a game with competitive players. The skill level of the player shouldn't 'break' the game. If it does then it's a crappy game.
Here's the bottom line. Aliens are overpowered. It's not open to debate, this is fact. The developers have already acknowledged this fact, and they are working to balance the game accordingly.
Waiting out an easy shotgun kill on a skulk that leaps straight at you only to do 34 damage and die before you get your second shot off kinda of throws any l2p/balance discussion out the window
like armories and sentries for marines well this sounded like tf2 lol
crags/shades/shifts and whips for gorges
Waiting out an easy shotgun kill on a skulk that leaps straight at you only to do 34 damage and die before you get your second shot off kinda of throws any l2p/balance discussion out the window<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
'Damage all at once' may be decreased and minimized, but it won't be fixed. It's a normal part of how multiplayer game hitreg works.
No, it won't.
Let's put aside the fact that in competitive games the win/loss ratio if even WORSE for marines than in pubs. (Marines only win 35% in competitive games, they win 42% in pubs) You would think these competitive players would "learn to play the game better" and it would all balance out. However, let's put that little factoid aside for now.
The reality is that you don't balance the game for the 'ideal' player since the majority of players are anything but. Balance doesn't work that way. The game should be balanced regardless of the kinds of players playing, unless the teams are deliberately stacked. So if you have all new players playing a game, the outcome should be as balanced as a game with competitive players. The skill level of the player shouldn't 'break' the game. If it does then it's a crappy game.
Here's the bottom line. Aliens are overpowered. It's not open to debate, this is fact. The developers have already acknowledged this fact, and they are working to balance the game accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One's skill determines one's choices in games like this. You can't divorce skill from the process because it creates and removes choices for the players.
Does a good comm or a bad comm not decide whether a team can or cannot play a great number of strategies? Are those choices actually present or absent based on the commander's skill at the game, on whether he is fast enough and accurate enough to pull them off for instance? Is not balance fundamentally in the hands of the Marine commander's ability to play the game in the current builds of NS2?
If that comm plays badly then there are so many strategies, especially timing attacks, that _cannot_ be done simply because the comm is too slow to make them happen.
If you add in a feature to balance the game which a bad comm can't use then fundamentally that feature does not affect the 'balance' of the game at that skill level.
***
The notion of 'balance' in a pragmatic sense has to assume that a great many factors are fixed. Balance is achievable when many factors can be fixed such as in competitive play. It's a highly contrived and controlled situation for this reason.
In a situation with few fixed factors 'balance' is very hard to achieve.
***
What you really are talking about is an outcome of 50%/50% win/loss ratios, not a good game. A very balanced game isn't necessarily very fun or satisfying. Mature people don't play games just to win. How they win is just as important to them as whether they do. This is why the games we play become increasingly deeper the older we get; a simple game of luck isn't satisfying anymore because the win wasn't a display of your power, it was just the system making you come out on top.
If you just rolled a dice and that dice decided your fate then how exactly was that a display of your power? No, the game decided you should win. You cannot gloat or be proud, it wasn't you that made the outcome so. People who enjoy games of luck and chance often enjoy being superior to others just because they do. This is a different kind of enjoyment which often manifests in their social behaviour as well.
I can appreciate that as a playtester your role is to analyse the game from a certain perspective. However, that perspective has limits. Your job is to find problems in the system and fix them. I am saying that the system is not the main problem here.
I don't imagine that the game is as well designed as it could be yet or that a number of changes couldn't be made which would make things easier on people. Don't get me wrong, the game isn't done yet.
However, Starcraft 1 has shown quite excitingly how that an imbalanced game can become 'balanced' through player culture, through focusing on the game rather than the 'balance.' SC1 had many stages of big imbalance that eventually worked themselves out over time. There were no balance changes, the players at every level simply adapted themselves to the problems that were they were presented with.
***
If everyone was focused on overcoming the challenges they face then I would whole-heartedly agree with discussing balance. However, for many the most basic elements of play haven't been learnt yet. It is a very bad thing for them to be saying the game is the problem when they themselves aren't even able to avail themselves of some fairly basic choices in the game.
Until people learn how to play the game talking about 'balance' is partly a nonsense. All that kind of thinking leads to is endless waves of nerfing until the game is super-boring and requires nothing of the people playing it. If people don't work out the trick to beating a regenerating lifeform because the game element was nerfed out of existence then they will always remain like children, incapable of taking matters into their own hands or of coping with anything.
This is why Starcraft 2 lacks a lot of the sexiness of Starcraft 1. A lot of the cool was removed because controversial elements were simply nerfed/deleted before anyone could learn to cope with them. Reapers are a classic example. Spider/Widow Mines are another good case.
This is half true. There were no unit/structure balance changes, but there were significant map making balance shifts, and of course metagame shifts as well.
The state of balance during that time was never quite as bad as it currently is for NS2 though, however, Brood War has many balance patches within the first 2 years of release, most games fix issues for a while, until they are "happy" with the way things are, and after that it's up to the mappers and the metagame to build the rest through.
I agree that there is more to a game than winning, and I'm happy to play a game and lose if it's a 'good game'. The problem is that when you play and lose time and time again, it gets real old real fast. Pretty soon the players start to wander away since it's no fun playing a game where the outcome is predetermined.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can appreciate that as a playtester your role is to analyse the game from a certain perspective. However, that perspective has limits. Your job is to find problems in the system and fix them. I am saying that the system is not the main problem here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->We can't have it both ways though. If we were to sit back and let people 'play their way to balance', two things would happen. First, the game would never become balanced. Why? Well because as the marines get better at playing, so do the aliens. People 'learn' on both sides, so it stands to reason that any skill improvements made on the marine side will be echoed on the alien side.
Secondly, waiting for the game to balance itself out means that you frustrate a good number of players who aren't willing to hang around until the game 'sorts itself out' - it if ever does.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Until people learn how to play the game talking about 'balance' is partly a nonsense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->With the exception of commanding, the game isn't hard to learn. It's hard to master. You can throw anyone on the marine side and tell them "stay in groups, build stuff and follow orders, and if you see an alien, kill it." That's all they really need to know to play the game to a significant level. Yeah there are advanced tactics, but the basics should be enough to make the game playable.
What it comes down to in the end is the 'gut feeling' that something is off. Marines are the weaker team right now, and one only has to look at competitive games to see how 'learning to play' hasn't balanced the game - it has in fact exacerbated the balance issue. If you could point to a 50/50 win ratio in competitive games you would have a strong case to make. That's not what is happening though.
If the game isn't balanced for competitive players, then do we tell them to 'L2P' too? Sooner or later we need to accept the fact that balance is off. That doesn't mean we need to start swinging the nerf bat though. I've heard many people call for removal of glancing bites or other ways to 'tone down' the skulks but I am very much against that. Skulks are in a good place in my opinion.
We really don't need to do much to change the win ratio. But hey, if we make changes and the pendulum swings the other way, it's very easy to roll back those changes.
It is ok preaching "read the forums, read strategies". Without a good comm marines CANNOT win. Aliens only need to be average to beat marines. No idea what the fix is. I like the idea of PRES to drop structures (will comm recycle be a problem for pres -> tres?)