<!--quoteo(post=2041237:date=Dec 7 2012, 10:00 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Dec 7 2012, 10:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Vet/community elitism (see <a href="http://forums.interwavestudios.com/topic/4749-ugh-veteran-players/" target="_blank">this thread</a>)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank goodness we don't have to worry about that with Natural Selection 2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The value of that guy's opinion is, in reality, less valuable than the opinion of thousands of professionals who are involved in game design. As much as he probably feels that he's enlightening the game industry and bringing in a fresh breath of ingenuity and cleverness, I would much rather see him design a game rather than publish mischievous rants about "what is wrong with games these days."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ehm...
The writer of the show is a professional working in the game designing field,just saying...
<!--quoteo(post=2041245:date=Dec 6 2012, 04:11 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 6 2012, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As someone else entirely mentioned, every multiplayer vs. game is competitive. I've seen clans spring up for the most asinine games. As long as there's a multiplayer versus mode, people will compete. Putting a stupid tag in front of your name doesn't make your particular flavor of competition somehow any more righteous than that which takes place in a pub.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a gross oversimplification of competitive video games, almost to the point where I could declare it a reductio ad absudum. What differentiates competitive from public play is not a clan tag, it is the organization, planning and execution that comes from playing with other like minded individuals. This level of communication and cooperation is strictly not possible with random unorganized players in a public setting. That isn't to say that teamwork is nonexistent but it isn't functioning at a higher level.
Let's take the overly beaten dead horse of Counter-Strike for example. Given a team of 5 players who consistently play together in an organized setting and pit them against 5 equally skilled players who have never played together, who would win? The most likely candidate is the team who has played together before. Now, take this analogy and apply it back to NS2 competitive vs public play. Given a set of equally skilled players, the ones that play together are likely to be on another level from those who aren't regardless of individual skill. That organization is what makes a competitive scene.
<!--quoteo(post=2041245:date=Dec 6 2012, 04:11 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 6 2012, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only qualification of what makes a game go from sad kicking-the-can competition to being big-boy competition would be the presence of sponsors and monetary investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's unfortunate that you feel that way as I disagree. What makes great competition isn't the sponsors or the money but the passion of the players competing.
<!--quoteo(post=2041245:date=Dec 6 2012, 04:11 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 6 2012, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless you can prove that, we can stop using the term 'competition' altogether, because I'm having a hard time seeing what makes the clowns playing in the ENSL somehow 'better' than the clowns playing in pubs. Both of them end their games the same way, with a screen saying 'horray you won (or lost)!'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are not better, and I'd wager no one said they were. They merely play the game in a more structured format in order to increase the competitive nature of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2041237:date=Dec 6 2012, 06:00 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Dec 6 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its hard to know for sure, but I think it was a combo of - Games devolving into turretwarz - Having a bad comm ruined matches (see <a href="http://forums.interwavestudios.com/topic/4174-imbalance-issues-or-why-the-rts-gameplay-breaks-the-game/" target="_blank">this thread</a>) - A not insignificant list of minor bugs and performance issues that snowballed into one big problem - Vet/community elitism (see <a href="http://forums.interwavestudios.com/topic/4749-ugh-veteran-players/" target="_blank">this thread</a>)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Every good game has these things (except maybe the turret wars thing). Bad players can always hurt their team, NS1 didn't have problems with the innate difficulty of commanding ruining the game.
It's not ever as simple as factors like that that "kill" a game. A game dies when people decide to move on and not play it any more, and there's lots of reasons why that happens. Having no reason to ever get better at the game is a very very common one for example.
The writer of the show is a professional working in the game designing field,just saying...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the guy is a docent for classes about art history and media theory at the Savannah College of Art and Design. The series was started as a video presentation for his students and then evolved into it's own show. It does not raise the claim to be the ultimate answer to a question but rather to educate people with a good use of didactics (by keeping them entertained with a light-hearted format instead of having a really dry and serious presentation) and to foster dialogue and to encourage the people to further think about the topic themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=2041288:date=Dec 7 2012, 12:41 PM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 7 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, the guy is a docent for classes about art history and media theory at the Savannah College of Art and Design. The series was started as a video presentation for his students and then evolved into it's own show. It does not raise the claim to be the ultimate answer to a question but rather to educate people with a good use of didactics (by keeping them entertained with a light-hearted format instead of having a really dry and serious presentation) and to foster dialogue and to encourage the people to further think about the topic themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah that's pretty much how I perceive the show. It seems to be more like an introduction to concepts for people who might be thinking of making a game (we live in the era of indy games, mobile games and kickstarter) who have very little idea what constitutes a good game. From time to time the show touches on things that even well known games/developers are challenged by.
Obviously you don't get transformative learning from a 5 minute show, but for the right audience it can make them stop and think about their game or seek more formal learning/theory from the body of works about game design.
FWIW I thought about making a thread about this ep on this forum too.
<!--quoteo(post=2041215:date=Dec 6 2012, 06:19 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Dec 6 2012, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The competitive scene is what will make or break NS2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The video in the OP was pretty informative I think, the discussion that followed it...not so much.
The thread went to hell when someone mentioned "bunny hopping" as an example of skill that NS2 somehow lacks. Yes a key binding glitch that makes marines look like moronic rabbits half leap-flying around the map is certainly a skill. Bunny hoping was a ridiculous scourge and I can't thank the UWE team enough for not including it in NS2.
As for the comment I quoted, it’s just ridiculous.
I think this is the kind of attitude that gets people riled up about "elitism" of "competitive" players. The competitive scene, what there is of it, is going to be small. It has to be by design, or else everything is competitive (which you can argue that it is). If we’re already at the point where everything hinges on a couple over-serious clans, then the game is in a baaaad spot.
What will make or break NS2 is how long the average player continues to enjoy the game and find it fun. How often new players like this buy the game. How often it is patched to fix performance issues and add/tweak features. Keeping the game FUN for CASUAL play is what will make or break the game.
I say this as someone who has put a lot of time into playing NS2 (and god knows how much into NS1 haha) and consider myself a half-decent player.
Honestly I watched some of those "high level" matches. The players are organized and efficient, but their skills are by and large nothing to write home about. I see pub players who can play at a similar level all the time, and even some pub games with just as good organization.
As complex as NS2 is it is still just a GAME. We play it to have FUN. This is perfectly do-able on pub servers, and it just smacks of spergy elitism when people imply that good play and organization can't be found outside tournaments, scrims, matches, whatever.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2041287:date=Dec 6 2012, 05:40 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 6 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every good game has these things (except maybe the turret wars thing). Bad players can always hurt their team, NS1 didn't have problems with the innate difficulty of commanding ruining the game.
It's not ever as simple as factors like that that "kill" a game. A game dies when people decide to move on and not play it any more, and there's lots of reasons why that happens. Having no reason to ever get better at the game is a very very common one for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I saw my fair share of bad comms in NS1. Poorly skilled players in the critical comm position is always going to be an issue in FPS/RTS games, which is why I would like to see much more focus on ensuring only sufficiently competent players are able to get into it combined with a non-intrusive way for new players to learn and practice commanding.
I can also assure you that ND had quite a few things that would entice players to continue playing (four different classes with several kits each, a leveling system that unlocked gizmos, eight official maps with a few customs). I'd also have to say I enjoy comming in ND more than I do in NS1/2.
However, while ND's playerbase more or less flopped from the start, NS2's is going strong. I'm not sure exactly why, but NS2 seems to have avoided the mistakes of ND so far.
<!--quoteo(post=2040691:date=Dec 6 2012, 12:43 PM:name=CrushaK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CrushaK @ Dec 6 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2040691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That Spirit Science thing is made by a guy named Jordan Duchnycz.
Extra Credits is written by James Portnow and narrated by Daniel Floyd. <b>It's also not hard to hear that the voices sound differently</b>. Get your stuff together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2041320:date=Dec 7 2012, 04:24 AM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 7 2012, 04:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->herp derp marines bunnyhopping :D :D :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Look, you have the right to be completely ignorant and hate bunnyhopping all you want, but if you don't understand how the mechanic worked in NS1, or even how it has been suggested to work in NS2, at least do us the favor of not spamming your ignorance to confuse other posters.
<!--quoteo(post=2041320:date=Dec 7 2012, 04:24 AM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 7 2012, 04:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I watched some of those "high level" matches. The players are organized and efficient, but their skills are by and large nothing to write home about. I see pub players who can play at a similar level all the time, and even some pub games with just as good organization<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Name one "pub player" who can play at a similar level to Archaea. I'm all ears. As for "good organization" on publics; you're joking right?
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit
From what I've noticed noobs bring hate on themselves. They say ###### like "get camo, comm" or "where are the turrets in spawn?"
My general response is a polite shut the ###### up.
If a noob asked me an honest question about the game, rather than assuming he knows everything already, I would answer truthfully and everyone would be happy.
vets only get angry when noobs think they know what they're talking about and hence get trolled.
If you're a noob shut your mouth and learn from the vets. Then maybe one day you'll be one
or get trolled and laughed at, quit and go play league of legends.
<!--quoteo(post=2041241:date=Dec 7 2012, 07:04 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 7 2012, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the things I've said regarding NS2 is that its problem can be summed up as thus: If it was trying to be like NS1, it didn't do enough things similar. If it was trying to be its own game, it was too similar to NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
finally something that isn't you dragging things down to your level and beating it with your stick trying to make people agree with you. sorry i had to say it.
check the steam forum for this game guys, there are a couple of users who think that ns2 is too much similar game to ns1 (probably players who didn't play both for very long), so i do agree with temphage here.
<!--quoteo(post=2041358:date=Dec 7 2012, 01:22 PM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Dec 7 2012, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie made ns2 for noobs
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i can vouch for koven here (though personally i'd have phrased it in a more polite manner) as my local community for ns2 is nearly dead (only 10~ pubbies playing on weekends, no vets around, etc). we originally started as a 160 strong community and even have like 16 official servers for our region.
we probably contributed a lot to the downward spike you see on the graph thingy. well, the good news is, we can't contribute anymore since we don't have many players left to even get a public pug started.
i can't speak for the pubbies, but the game is not fun for us ns1 vets who came over because the gameplay feels really bland. i'm not trying to justify bunnyhopping in ns2, but at least with it we had bunnyhopping maps that we practiced on for hours (that counts as playing a game too, we had fun + we learned something from the game that could be used across almost every other hl1 mod). back in ns1, random noobs would often join us and we would teach them how to bunnyhop, though most leave our server in like 10 seconds anyway.
i won't go into skill since it'll result in more arguments, but i think unless you've been part of what it means to be even moderately "skilled" back in ns1, you won't really understand what it means. i know it sounds condescending, but sometimes you have to be there to fully understand certain things.
<!--quoteo(post=2041358:date=Dec 7 2012, 01:22 AM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Dec 7 2012, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie made ns2 for noobs
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit
From what I've noticed noobs bring hate on themselves. They say ###### like "get camo, comm" or "where are the turrets in spawn?"
My general response is a polite shut the ###### up.
If a noob asked me an honest question about the game, rather than assuming he knows everything already, I would answer truthfully and everyone would be happy.
vets only get angry when noobs think they know what they're talking about and hence get trolled.
If you're a noob shut your mouth and learn from the vets. Then maybe one day you'll be one
or get trolled and laughed at, quit and go play league of legends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, I think the biggest shot to the foot NS2 did for itself as it stands today, was building a game that the majority of gaming systems can't handle effectively in this day and age. All the AAA games these days come out console ready, it's a rare thing that someone with a half decent gaming PC can't play a game on high settings any more. My PC is very dated, but it still modestly keeps up with the average machine out there for casual gamers, and it really chugs on NS2.
I don't think this will necessarily be a terrible decision in the long run, realistically, in the next 3 years the next line of consoles will out, power PC hardware will jump in popularity when all of a sudden multiplatform releases don't run on anyone's current system any more. And really, indie games get put in bundles and chug a long for years after they are released. They don't tend to get chewed up and spit out like AAA games do.
The death bell is far from tolling for UWE, but it's a bit too bad NS2 couldn't have a million players on launch month like some sleeper hits do.
<!--quoteo(post=2041357:date=Dec 7 2012, 01:21 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 7 2012, 01:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look, you have the right to be completely ignorant and hate bunnyhopping all you want, but if you don't understand how the mechanic worked in NS1, or even how it has been suggested to work in NS2, at least do us the favor of not spamming your ignorance to confuse other posters.
Name one "pub player" who can play at a similar level to Archaea. I'm all ears. As for "good organization" on publics; you're joking right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because disliking the widely abused bunny hopping glitch and ignorance are certainly synonymous. I love how the glitch defenders always fall back on the old trope "oh well you don't understand how the mechanic worked" or "you don't understand the skill involved!"
It was a glitch, and a silly one at that (both in form and function), that a bunch of overly spergy key binders got obsessed with, and like some sad, bitter, form of techno addict are still experiencing withdrawal from.
What little "skill" was involved in performing it was negated at any "competitive" level anyway because everyone did it. Leaping around like a bunch of coked up lemurs everywhere.
As for your second point, I have watched some clan matches, which I find dull, and I just don't see the hype. They aim well, and they go in having a plan. They know the maps well and use them accordingly. It's not exactly rocket science or even chess. You can find good games on pub servers, sorry you can't seem to though.
<!--quoteo(post=2041358:date=Dec 7 2012, 01:22 AM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Dec 7 2012, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie made ns2 for noobs
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit
From what I've noticed noobs bring hate on themselves. They say ###### like "get camo, comm" or "where are the turrets in spawn?"
My general response is a polite shut the ###### up.
If a noob asked me an honest question about the game, rather than assuming he knows everything already, I would answer truthfully and everyone would be happy.
vets only get angry when noobs think they know what they're talking about and hence get trolled.
. Then maybe one day you'll be one
or get trolled and laughed at, quit and go play league of legends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly the kind of smug (and poorly written/expressed) attitude that will kill NS2. There is nothing new players love more than having "Vets" (whatever the hell that means, I've been playing NS since it came out in 02 and I don't call myself a Vet.) condescending them. Did you fight in Vietnam? What kind of veteran are you? I would have a hard time calling myself and Natural Selection veteran with a straight face.
Your post doesn’t even make sense, how is "get camo comm" a horrible noob request. Under certain circumstances sure, but you don't specify.
Regardless NS2: "If you're a noob shut your mouth and learn from the vets." Is going to sell about 0 copies.
It's a fun game, if you take a video game this seriously (to the point of being this angry at new players who are the life blood of any game) you might want to consider taking some walks outside, or a therapist.
i think the mods should start watching out for this thread. just a minor nitpick before that happens though.
<!--quoteo(post=2041400:date=Dec 7 2012, 03:49 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 7 2012, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What little "skill" was involved in performing it was negated at any "competitive" level anyway because everyone did it. Leaping around like a bunch of coked up lemurs everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2041122:date=Dec 7 2012, 03:16 AM:name=cream)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cream @ Dec 7 2012, 03:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->going by your logic, if both of us can swing a racket in tennis, there's no skill involved? you can swing a racket in different ways to manipulate how you want the ball to go. this is the same case for bunnyhopping. you can probably do it like everybody else, but it doesn't mean you'll be able to do it as well as the next person.
if you do know bunnyhopping, you'll know that "doing it well" means that you gain a much substantial speed increase compared to when you're "doing it worse". this speed difference is apparent across maps as big as those in ns1. it can mean arriving early or late to where you're needed most.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i have to agree with fana here. you're talking about something you don't really know except on a superficial (very, very superficial) level. what's worse is that you don't read the points that people have brought up and the counter-arguments that followed.
<!--quoteo(post=2041400:date=Dec 7 2012, 03:49 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 7 2012, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for your second point, I have watched some clan matches, which I find dull, and I just don't see the hype. They aim well, and they go in having a plan. They know the maps well and use them accordingly. It's not exactly rocket science or even chess. You can find good games on pub servers, sorry you can't seem to though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's because there's nothing that really stands out in this game that only a small number of players can do except for the standard few (aiming well, knowing map well, etc). but nevertheless i think you'd be very surprised if you were to face a high-level competitive player. they do play the game much better than pubbies, even if you can't see it.
anyway, i'm not sure if you're being close-minded, or you're trying to spark a flame war here. i do agree that koven was probably a little too harsh in his post, but that's because he's particularly passionate about ns1 (and possibly ns2).
you don't have to worry about him killing ns2 though. i think he plays in strictly competitive games. no pubbies were hurt in the process... except here on the forums i guess.
Why would the mods have to look out for this thread. This is basically the official forum trope for the past half-decade.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Forum Go'er A makes some stupid statement about Bunnyhopping.
Mr. A is corrected and / or ridiculed for making ridiculous statement about said gameplay mechanic he or she neither understands from a mechanical, historical, or technical perspective.
Mr. A goes on to not really care; and cannot be persuaded nor is he / she looking to be persuaded in any manner.
Mr. A has a retarded baby who makes some stupid statement about Bunnyhopping.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--quoteo(post=2041415:date=Dec 7 2012, 05:59 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Dec 7 2012, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would the mods have to look out for this thread. This is basically the official forum trope for the past half-decade.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Forum Go'er A makes some stupid statement about Bunnyhopping.
Mr. A is corrected and / or ridiculed for making ridiculous statement about said gameplay mechanic he or she neither understands from a mechanical, historical, or technical perspective.
Mr. A goes on to not really care; and cannot be persuaded nor is he / she looking to be persuaded in any manner.
Mr. A has a retarded baby who makes some stupid statement about Bunnyhopping.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh, no wonder only two or three competitive players i know of visit this place :X
I don't really think re-introducing Bhop (or another similar skill based system) will be 'the' solution everyone is aiming for to make NS2 the next big thing.
It's going to be a number of factors which several posts on these forums have summed up more suiccintly than I ever could.
The main reasons why I stopped playing are:
1.) Performance 2.) Powernodes 3.) Unable to relocate Marine CC to anywhere on the map
For me, the game isn't fun. I get more frustrated than anything while playing. I can't really put my finger on any single reason where, if fixed, I'd come back in a heart beat.
o_o ..........I'm sure someone will make a concise conclusion out of all this flame, at some point.
As for the video, was nice, nothing new really, but I never did think about the ratio of skill-to-power being more than 10% but not 100% to keep the game encouraging to all.
But I guess someone aspiring to be a game developer already thought of that since I hear the word "pseudo intellectual" thrown around. -.- (Come on, who mulls over that sh*t on their free time...)
I've been thinking a lot about this. I made a couple graphs.
An ideal skill curve looks like this: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/V78m9.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Some wiggliness is ok, probably a good thing actually, but the graphing program I used doesn't like that type of thing very much. Irregardless here are the main points
- It doesn't start at zero, the game needs to hand hold you in the beginning so you don't feel like a retard, the skill floor to start playing the game is as low as possible - the early progression gives big power gains, you feel like getting better at the game is a good thing to do - There are no massive discrepancies, no cliffs where either practicing doesn't help you any more, or you suddenly open up a can of hellishness by mastering a certain skill - Most importantly, it doesn't "plateau" by decreasing the amount of power you gain by gaining more skill. The ceiling never levels. - Your first 300 some odd hours of play give you a 2-7 power jump, your second give you a 7-9 power jump, every 300 hours after that it's less than a full point, but no matter how much work you put in you always see some pay back
The reason why gaming is in a mess, because most "skill based games" have either made this mistake: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/D4M47.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> or they have made the mistake of starting the power graph at the zero point.
And most casual games do this: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/6WCdQ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> - just don't ever bother putting more than whatever level X amount of hours is into this game at which you hit the plateau.
I can't think of a game that I think has done this well outside of maybe Othello or checkers. Video games all seem to hate being comprehensive experiences.
Note the size of quakecon, and that bunnyhopping is in all version of quake, and used extensively in competitive matches because it allows fast-paced gameplay that requires skill (practiced technique) to execute well.
It's interested to note that bunnyhopping is different in every game (Quake, CS, Warsow, etc), but the central idea of requiring practice on a technique allowing greater movement is what its all about. The fact that it originated as a glitch in a particular engine is incidental. Stainless steel was an accident too!
For anyone that has played Bastion (the isometric 'indie' game of 2011), you will see a similar mechanic. Surely many players find the ability to move quickly by doing an evade roll (spacebar) quite usefull - one could practice moving directionally while evading and be able to traverse the map much quicker than simply walking, being careful not to roll off the edge while dodging enemy attacks. I *loved* this mechanic, as did the friend that showed me the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2041400:date=Dec 6 2012, 11:49 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 6 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, because disliking the widely abused bunny hopping glitch and ignorance are certainly synonymous. I love how the glitch defenders always fall back on the old trope "oh well you don't understand how the mechanic worked" or "you don't understand the skill involved!"
It was a glitch, and a silly one at that (both in form and function), that a bunch of overly spergy key binders got obsessed with, and like some sad, bitter, form of techno addict are still experiencing withdrawal from.
What little "skill" was involved in performing it was negated at any "competitive" level anyway because everyone did it. Leaping around like a bunch of coked up lemurs everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121930" target="_blank">you clearly don't understand it, because if you did, you would realize that properly implemented bunnyhopping has absolutely nothing to do with "button mashing", which is something I already cleared on the first page of this thread.</a>
additionally, the reason why it was brought up in the first place was because it was a <i>skill-based</i> movement mechanic, meaning that it scaled in effectiveness the better the player was at bunnyhopping. so no, it wasn't "negated because everyone did it", that's like saying "aiming is irrelevant because everyone aims".
try again?
<!--quoteo(post=2041400:date=Dec 6 2012, 11:49 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 6 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for your second point, I have watched some clan matches, which I find dull, and I just don't see the hype. They aim well, and they go in having a plan. They know the maps well and use them accordingly. It's not exactly rocket science or even chess. You can find good games on pub servers, sorry you can't seem to though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it's actually really upsetting that you speak with such authority while knowing so little. just because you watched the matches does not mean you understood them or were able to comprehend them.
as far as the elitism - it isn't an overall community sentiment or anything even close to that, and it's certainly not what's "killing" the game. the competitive community is rather friendly in helping out new players and teams, because to do the opposite would be insane and would result in having no other teams to play. the strategies are shared openly among teams to help them grow, and this is where we run into the issue mentioned in the OP - the game is extremely shallow, and a lot of the mechanics are implemented poorly or incorrectly.. this is a reason why many of the top teams of NS1 have not returned to NS2, despite their initial interest.
on top of all of this, you have the performance and optimization issues, which is realistically the #1 reason why it's hard to sustain any large audience. you can't expect the majority of Steam users to have top-of-the-line machines.
perhaps the most frustrating part is the balance changes made due to these performance issues that were never reverted once performance improved... but that is another topic.
<!--quoteo(post=2041358:date=Dec 7 2012, 01:22 PM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Dec 7 2012, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie made ns2 for noobs
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit
From what I've noticed noobs bring hate on themselves. They say ###### like "get camo, comm" or "where are the turrets in spawn?"
My general response is a polite shut the ###### up.
If a noob asked me an honest question about the game, rather than assuming he knows everything already, I would answer truthfully and everyone would be happy.
vets only get angry when noobs think they know what they're talking about and hence get trolled.
If you're a noob shut your mouth and learn from the vets. Then maybe one day you'll be one
or get trolled and laughed at, quit and go play league of legends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2041358:date=Dec 6 2012, 09:22 PM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Dec 6 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie made ns2 for noobs
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit
From what I've noticed noobs bring hate on themselves. They say ###### like "get camo, comm" or "where are the turrets in spawn?"
My general response is a polite shut the ###### up.
If a noob asked me an honest question about the game, rather than assuming he knows everything already, I would answer truthfully and everyone would be happy.
vets only get angry when noobs think they know what they're talking about and hence get trolled.
If you're a noob shut your mouth and learn from the vets. Then maybe one day you'll be one
or get trolled and laughed at, quit and go play league of legends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2041383:date=Dec 6 2012, 10:54 PM:name=cream)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cream @ Dec 6 2012, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i can vouch for koven here (though personally i'd have phrased it in a more polite manner)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2041392:date=Dec 6 2012, 11:20 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 6 2012, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty much NS2 summed up. 100% correct.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2041442:date=Dec 7 2012, 03:09 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Dec 7 2012, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->YES<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kind of surprised to see so many people +1 Koven's post. "Shut the f--- up noobs" and "If you're a noob shut your mouth...or quit and play LoL."
<!--quoteo(post=2041449:date=Dec 7 2012, 03:39 AM:name=Evil_Sheep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_Sheep @ Dec 7 2012, 03:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kind of surprised to see so many people +1 Koven's post. "Shut the f--- up noobs" and "If you're a noob shut your mouth...or quit and play LoL."
That what NS2 is about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> actually the initial point is quite true - the correct way to balance a game is around the highest skill level, because the public players don't care about learning higher level mechanics (as evidenced by the amount of people playing refinery). nor will it matter, because the skilled players will still be able to crush the new players.
balancing around the low skill level leaves everyone dissatisfied, because the skilled players still manage to stomp but are unhappy with the game mechanics being poor, and the public players will not care about the finer mechanics (such as Celerity being deactivated in combat, or hit registry issues for example), and still end up being destroyed by skilled players.
additionally, I hope you realize how silly it is to take the sentiment of three posters as "what NS2 is about".
<!--quoteo(post=2041421:date=Dec 7 2012, 05:05 AM:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx @ Dec 7 2012, 05:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really think re-introducing Bhop (or another similar skill based system) will be 'the' solution everyone is aiming for to make NS2 the next big thing.
It's going to be a number of factors which several posts on these forums have summed up more suiccintly than I ever could.
The main reasons why I stopped playing are:
1.) Performance 2.) Powernodes 3.) Unable to relocate Marine CC to anywhere on the map
For me, the game isn't fun. I get more frustrated than anything while playing. I can't really put my finger on any single reason where, if fixed, I'd come back in a heart beat.
The hardest thing to create is 'fun'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is, there's a hundred different reasons why any given player will "stop playing" or will "never get into the game". Many of them aren't fixable, many of them are.
Your reasons are legitimate, but they're different things than I care about. Performance and PowerNodes are hot button issues for me as well, However, I like the system we have now more than the universal relocates of NS1.
Finally, I also really care that this game feels dumbed down compared to NS1. I don't want bunnyhopping back specifically, but I don't feel like NS2 has given me any new skills to try to master in replacement of it, at least if NS2 had bunnyhopping back there would be a skill in the game that I find really fun and I'm still working on improving (even though I've spent the last 10 years of my life practicing it in various different games). Wall jumping is a step in the right direction, but I'm seeing very little gains from it, even though I've been working on it quite hard. I can accept that I need to work harder to get good combos, but I'm hearing players much better at it than I am complain that there are only a handful of locations in the maps where really good combos exist, and I'm pretty regularly running into the limits of speed gain you can achieve by improvisation. There could also very easily be other mechanics put in place to aid this situation that wouldn't greatly negatively effect the play experience of anyone except those who intentionally choose to not make an attempt to get better at the game. At a certain point the question I'm asking is "who do we cater to"?
There are many players out there like you who have good reasons for not being able to love the game right now. I don't agree with all their reasons, and the "main reason" for many of them is not the "main reason for me", but my opinion about what reasons I care most about isn't the only valid opinion out there, and their experience of having the game ruined by some specific thing is not less valuable than my experience.
First of all, I want to decry anyone who's coming here and getting mad that someone else is having fun with something different in the game than you are. I don't expect you to like bunnyhopping, but if you're going to come here and call me names because I like bunnyhopping? Well, frankly you're just a bad person and I want you to be gone. This goes both ways. There's high level players of NS2, and there were high level players of NS1, who criticized all different manner of things. Siege maps, gorge nests, co_mode, heavy armor. I can accept there are more "ideal" ways of playing the game, that it is frustrating to lose a pub match because someone wasted their res and it crippled your team just enough to tilt you over the tipping point... but Jesus, I don't come into your house and slap you around because you sorted the dinnerware in the cupboards wrong. At a certain point we all just have to let people live with the things they like, and if we can't play with them, than don't. There have always been pugs, scrims, and lots of other servers to go to if someone is doing it wrong somewhere on the internet. And if there isn't, well, maybe it's their turn to have it their way right now, and you can have your turn later. I have a lot of respect for competitive players, but I REALLY don't want to imply they are never wrong and never do damaging things to the community either. There's a lot of things said on that side of the fence that I've really disagreed with as well.
Secondly, while many people have legitimate criticisms and concerns, some people are just impossible to please, and they should be ignored. People come on the forums and post things about how skulks bouncing like rabbits is so ridiculous and silly and ruins the game for them... You're playing a game about humans who teleport in to fight bacteria based lifeforms in space with gunpowder based firearms and flamethrowers. I'm glad you're such an expert on bacterial based lifeforms to the point where you can educate us all the realism of their kinesiology. The mental gymnastics used to defend that point are so astounding that if they're ever accepted as proof of anything, then they can literally be used to prove any ridiculous point anyone could possibly dream up. At a certain point, some of you just have to accept that this game isn't for you, and you should probably be playing Arma II. This extends to the crowd who seems to believe that they should be able to do anything they want and still win. I think you'd be happier with single player games, there are fundamental design reasons why NS2 can't satisfy you. It would be a bad game if it put you on equal footing with people who actually try. The mechanics that put the game together, the guns that marines use, the abilities the aliens utilize, the designs of the creatures, they are tools to serve a specific game play experience. That game play experience is crafted to cast a wide net, and have a lot of people have fun with it, but there's just some concessions that aren't logical to make. When you go to buy a new car, you can complain all you want about how unintuitive the steering wheel is, and you just wish the car could identify your eye movement and go where you want it... but it will change nothing. There's a million reasons why the steering wheel is the tool used to do what it does, and sometimes it's just better to educate yourself before you make a statement that makes you look stupid.
So am I arguing that NS2 needs bunnyhopping? No. 'Needs' is a strong term. What I want to make clear, is there's a significant segment of this community, who contributed a lot to NS1, who is not being well serviced in NS2 because of the priority the NS2 team has put into creative direction at the expense of designed skill required mechanics. Pseudo "professional" players, and just really anyone who legitimately enjoys competition are, at some level, being pushed to the side of the road with this game in it's current iteration. I won't argue that Flayra, or any game developer of any sequel tailoring to an existing community, owes us anything. There is no obligation for NS2 to be the game that services all the dreams I had for it personally. What I want to argue is that, ignoring competitive players IS shooting the potential success of a game like NS2 in the foot. And that it would be nice of the NS2 team to take us a little more seriously in respect for what we did to make the NS community a more lively and successful place.
The first point, there's a LONG standing tradition in gaming that competitive play draws eyes in, and keeps hands on keyboards/controllers. This was true in NS1, it's VERY true for League of Legends, it's true for most of the most respected multiplayer games. Star Craft 2, Dota/WarCraft 3, Street Fighter, CounterStrike, Quake, TF2, Halo. There are 2 examples of team based shooters that have done well in gaming without a strong competitive scene. Battle Field, and Call of Duty. Both of these games have poor player retention, and that's why they CONSTANTLY get sequels. Both of these games are storied, and have a lot of people that hate them, and both of these games are actually small when it comes to concurrent hours being played in gaming. These 2 games sell well, they hype well, they ship copies well, but the evidence stacks up that people don't actually like them as much as other games out there. They move onto the next thing faster, and stick around for a shorter time. To me, the evidence is clear, if you're making a team based shooter, your model to follow is not one of those two games, ESPECIALLY if you're not a huge AAA studio. The most played multiplayer game in the world was made by an indie studio and it utilizes a simple but highly competitive design where you're encouraged, above all other things, to increase your skill. THAT'S the model for an indie game to follow! It's a hard success to repeat, but it's a hell of a lot more achievable than trying to be an outlier like COD or BF. A healthy community of competitive players bring in attention, they lend credence to the quality of a game, they push the metagame and expose everyone to new and interesting ways to approach the game constantly, and there are few people in the world better to have on board if you're trying to build nice concurrency rankings. The only people who play more than competitive players are obsessive addicts. Yup, I'll fully admit that, like almost any other person of this type, because they're people that take the game seriously, competitive players bring drama with them. I'm arguing the pros outweigh the cons, and it's FAR from needing to be all bad.
The second point, SO SO SOOOO much of the life in the NS1 community came from people who competed in the game. FFt, EC, both casual clans, but clans none the less. So many iconic members of this community past and present. A_Civilian, and Puzl of our past, and Fana, NeoRussia, and Lochlear (I think I spelled that wrong, sorry) of our present (for just the tiniest little tip of the iceberg). Competitive players have helped SO SO many mappers work on the balance of their project by devoting time to playtesting and discussion in ways that are actually constructive and useful. NS would not have been NS without competitive play. I find it EXTREMELY insidious that anyone should feel like they have to be apologetic for putting their passion and effort into being the best they can at this game because they enjoy competing. Like I said before, it's not that competitive players are owed anything, aside from maybe respect, but most of them aren't asking for a lot, and I think it could only be looked at as admirable of the UWE team to make this game more friendly for those types of people, ESPECIALLY because they are really not asking for anything that would necessarily have to hurt the game for everyone else. Most of the prominent figures have stated they're willing to forgo bunnyhopping specifically if they get some good skill based system regardless.
At the end of the day, it's not specifically that anyone's opinion is innately invalid, or stupid... But there are things that NS1 was, niche and competitive were two of them. And there are things that NS2 already is, and that NS2 really should be. I really just think that niche and competitive should fit there too.
<!--quoteo(post=2041449:date=Dec 7 2012, 01:39 PM:name=Evil_Sheep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_Sheep @ Dec 7 2012, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Kind of surprised to see so many people +1 Koven's post. "Shut the f--- up noobs" and "If you're a noob shut your mouth...or quit and play LoL."
That what NS2 is about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it is not.
This is just the personal hell of a few people. Actually the irony is really funny. Look at their posts full of hate and it is easy to understand that they don't help new players to learn the game. But instead talking down to them without any manners but with insults. Nobody will be willing to learn something from a ######-bag. Instead they react back with the same manners. And this way, those people are creating their own hell, they than crying about in the forums.
Fortunately most players I meet react very friendly when I explain them my opinion of NS2 tactics. :)
<!--quoteo(post=2041452:date=Dec 7 2012, 06:51 AM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Dec 7 2012, 06:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->actually the initial point is quite true - the correct way to balance a game is around the highest skill level, because the public players don't care about learning higher level mechanics (as evidenced by the amount of people playing refinery). nor will it matter, because the skilled players will still be able to crush the new players.
balancing around the low skill level leaves everyone dissatisfied, because the skilled players still manage to stomp but are unhappy with the game mechanics being poor, and the public players will not care about the finer mechanics (such as Celerity being deactivated in combat, or hit registry issues for example), and still end up being destroyed by skilled players.
additionally, I hope you realize how silly it is to take the sentiment of three posters as "what NS2 is about".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you're strictly right. I agree that it's VERY incorrect to NOT balance the game around the highest skill level, but I don't think it's correct to balance the game around one skill level and ignore all others. The skill curve itself should be intentionally designed and balanced. The ceiling lifted as much as possible, the cliffs and valleys ironed out. The best games encourage players to move from a scrubby bad player to the best player they can be natural by just constantly asking a little more of the player to reach the next rank, without ever being exceptionally unfair "oh well, now you have to unlearn all those old skills and learn this new on instead"
I believe a game where Team X beats Team Y 95% of the time at the lowest skill level is just as problematic as one where X beats Y 95% of the time at the highest skill level. A well balanced game balances for both.
Occasionally you need some concessions one way or another from one skill point to accommodate another one, and I think generally in those cases you should take from the low and give to the high, but as much as possible balance should be a universal thing that everyone gets to enjoy, not something that kicks in after 500 hours of play logged.
Yep, balance across skill level as much as possible.
<!--quoteo(post=2041421:date=Dec 7 2012, 11:05 AM:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx @ Dec 7 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main reasons why I stopped playing are:
1.) Performance 2.) Powernodes 3.) Unable to relocate Marine CC to anywhere on the map<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me it would be:
- Too much player vs structures fights (powernodes, cysts, ..). - Not enough freedom in structure placement (relocation, powernodes, cysts, ...). - Too many hidden mechanics (poison bite, no res when dead, ...). - Too many arbitrary mechanics (3 hive onos, two cc proto) that help balance but lack consistency or logic. - Movement is not very fun (the builds where skulk wall jump was OP were much more fun). - Alien upgrade mechanics. It's boring to wait for upgrades and abilities for your lifeform, and it doesn't really add any depth in the strategy to compensate. - Overcrowded visuals (GUI, banners, ...) - Lack of strategic depth.
Comments
Thank goodness we don't have to worry about that with Natural Selection 2.
Ehm...
The writer of the show is a professional working in the game designing field,just saying...
This is a gross oversimplification of competitive video games, almost to the point where I could declare it a reductio ad absudum. What differentiates competitive from public play is not a clan tag, it is the organization, planning and execution that comes from playing with other like minded individuals. This level of communication and cooperation is strictly not possible with random unorganized players in a public setting. That isn't to say that teamwork is nonexistent but it isn't functioning at a higher level.
Let's take the overly beaten dead horse of Counter-Strike for example. Given a team of 5 players who consistently play together in an organized setting and pit them against 5 equally skilled players who have never played together, who would win? The most likely candidate is the team who has played together before. Now, take this analogy and apply it back to NS2 competitive vs public play. Given a set of equally skilled players, the ones that play together are likely to be on another level from those who aren't regardless of individual skill. That organization is what makes a competitive scene.
<!--quoteo(post=2041245:date=Dec 6 2012, 04:11 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 6 2012, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only qualification of what makes a game go from sad kicking-the-can competition to being big-boy competition would be the presence of sponsors and monetary investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's unfortunate that you feel that way as I disagree. What makes great competition isn't the sponsors or the money but the passion of the players competing.
<!--quoteo(post=2041245:date=Dec 6 2012, 04:11 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 6 2012, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless you can prove that, we can stop using the term 'competition' altogether, because I'm having a hard time seeing what makes the clowns playing in the ENSL somehow 'better' than the clowns playing in pubs. Both of them end their games the same way, with a screen saying 'horray you won (or lost)!'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are not better, and I'd wager no one said they were. They merely play the game in a more structured format in order to increase the competitive nature of the game.
- Games devolving into turretwarz
- Having a bad comm ruined matches (see <a href="http://forums.interwavestudios.com/topic/4174-imbalance-issues-or-why-the-rts-gameplay-breaks-the-game/" target="_blank">this thread</a>)
- A not insignificant list of minor bugs and performance issues that snowballed into one big problem
- Vet/community elitism (see <a href="http://forums.interwavestudios.com/topic/4749-ugh-veteran-players/" target="_blank">this thread</a>)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every good game has these things (except maybe the turret wars thing). Bad players can always hurt their team, NS1 didn't have problems with the innate difficulty of commanding ruining the game.
It's not ever as simple as factors like that that "kill" a game. A game dies when people decide to move on and not play it any more, and there's lots of reasons why that happens. Having no reason to ever get better at the game is a very very common one for example.
The writer of the show is a professional working in the game designing field,just saying...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the guy is a docent for classes about art history and media theory at the Savannah College of Art and Design. The series was started as a video presentation for his students and then evolved into it's own show. It does not raise the claim to be the ultimate answer to a question but rather to educate people with a good use of didactics (by keeping them entertained with a light-hearted format instead of having a really dry and serious presentation) and to foster dialogue and to encourage the people to further think about the topic themselves.
Yeah that's pretty much how I perceive the show. It seems to be more like an introduction to concepts for people who might be thinking of making a game (we live in the era of indy games, mobile games and kickstarter) who have very little idea what constitutes a good game. From time to time the show touches on things that even well known games/developers are challenged by.
Obviously you don't get transformative learning from a 5 minute show, but for the right audience it can make them stop and think about their game or seek more formal learning/theory from the body of works about game design.
FWIW I thought about making a thread about this ep on this forum too.
The video in the OP was pretty informative I think, the discussion that followed it...not so much.
The thread went to hell when someone mentioned "bunny hopping" as an example of skill that NS2 somehow lacks. Yes a key binding glitch that makes marines look like moronic rabbits half leap-flying around the map is certainly a skill. Bunny hoping was a ridiculous scourge and I can't thank the UWE team enough for not including it in NS2.
As for the comment I quoted, it’s just ridiculous.
I think this is the kind of attitude that gets people riled up about "elitism" of "competitive" players. The competitive scene, what there is of it, is going to be small. It has to be by design, or else everything is competitive (which you can argue that it is). If we’re already at the point where everything hinges on a couple over-serious clans, then the game is in a baaaad spot.
What will make or break NS2 is how long the average player continues to enjoy the game and find it fun. How often new players like this buy the game. How often it is patched to fix performance issues and add/tweak features. Keeping the game FUN for CASUAL play is what will make or break the game.
I say this as someone who has put a lot of time into playing NS2 (and god knows how much into NS1 haha) and consider myself a half-decent player.
Honestly I watched some of those "high level" matches. The players are organized and efficient, but their skills are by and large nothing to write home about. I see pub players who can play at a similar level all the time, and even some pub games with just as good organization.
As complex as NS2 is it is still just a GAME. We play it to have FUN. This is perfectly do-able on pub servers, and it just smacks of spergy elitism when people imply that good play and organization can't be found outside tournaments, scrims, matches, whatever.
It's not ever as simple as factors like that that "kill" a game. A game dies when people decide to move on and not play it any more, and there's lots of reasons why that happens. Having no reason to ever get better at the game is a very very common one for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I saw my fair share of bad comms in NS1. Poorly skilled players in the critical comm position is always going to be an issue in FPS/RTS games, which is why I would like to see much more focus on ensuring only sufficiently competent players are able to get into it combined with a non-intrusive way for new players to learn and practice commanding.
I can also assure you that ND had quite a few things that would entice players to continue playing (four different classes with several kits each, a leveling system that unlocked gizmos, eight official maps with a few customs). I'd also have to say I enjoy comming in ND more than I do in NS1/2.
However, while ND's playerbase more or less flopped from the start, NS2's is going strong. I'm not sure exactly why, but NS2 seems to have avoided the mistakes of ND so far.
Extra Credits is written by James Portnow and narrated by Daniel Floyd. <b>It's also not hard to hear that the voices sound differently</b>. Get your stuff together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously? It's exactly the same.
Look, you have the right to be completely ignorant and hate bunnyhopping all you want, but if you don't understand how the mechanic worked in NS1, or even how it has been suggested to work in NS2, at least do us the favor of not spamming your ignorance to confuse other posters.
<!--quoteo(post=2041320:date=Dec 7 2012, 04:24 AM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 7 2012, 04:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I watched some of those "high level" matches. The players are organized and efficient, but their skills are by and large nothing to write home about. I see pub players who can play at a similar level all the time, and even some pub games with just as good organization<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Name one "pub player" who can play at a similar level to Archaea. I'm all ears. As for "good organization" on publics; you're joking right?
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit
From what I've noticed noobs bring hate on themselves. They say ###### like "get camo, comm" or "where are the turrets in spawn?"
My general response is a polite shut the ###### up.
If a noob asked me an honest question about the game, rather than assuming he knows everything already, I would answer truthfully and everyone would be happy.
vets only get angry when noobs think they know what they're talking about and hence get trolled.
If you're a noob shut your mouth and learn from the vets. Then maybe one day you'll be one
or get trolled and laughed at, quit and go play league of legends.
finally something that isn't you dragging things down to your level and beating it with your stick trying to make people agree with you. sorry i had to say it.
check the steam forum for this game guys, there are a couple of users who think that ns2 is too much similar game to ns1 (probably players who didn't play both for very long), so i do agree with temphage here.
<!--quoteo(post=2041358:date=Dec 7 2012, 01:22 PM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Dec 7 2012, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie made ns2 for noobs
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i can vouch for koven here (though personally i'd have phrased it in a more polite manner) as my local community for ns2 is nearly dead (only 10~ pubbies playing on weekends, no vets around, etc). we originally started as a 160 strong community and even have like 16 official servers for our region.
we probably contributed a lot to the downward spike you see on the graph thingy. well, the good news is, we can't contribute anymore since we don't have many players left to even get a public pug started.
i can't speak for the pubbies, but the game is not fun for us ns1 vets who came over because the gameplay feels really bland. i'm not trying to justify bunnyhopping in ns2, but at least with it we had bunnyhopping maps that we practiced on for hours (that counts as playing a game too, we had fun + we learned something from the game that could be used across almost every other hl1 mod). back in ns1, random noobs would often join us and we would teach them how to bunnyhop, though most leave our server in like 10 seconds anyway.
i won't go into skill since it'll result in more arguments, but i think unless you've been part of what it means to be even moderately "skilled" back in ns1, you won't really understand what it means. i know it sounds condescending, but sometimes you have to be there to fully understand certain things.
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit
From what I've noticed noobs bring hate on themselves. They say ###### like "get camo, comm" or "where are the turrets in spawn?"
My general response is a polite shut the ###### up.
If a noob asked me an honest question about the game, rather than assuming he knows everything already, I would answer truthfully and everyone would be happy.
vets only get angry when noobs think they know what they're talking about and hence get trolled.
If you're a noob shut your mouth and learn from the vets. Then maybe one day you'll be one
or get trolled and laughed at, quit and go play league of legends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much NS2 summed up. 100% correct.
I don't think this will necessarily be a terrible decision in the long run, realistically, in the next 3 years the next line of consoles will out, power PC hardware will jump in popularity when all of a sudden multiplatform releases don't run on anyone's current system any more. And really, indie games get put in bundles and chug a long for years after they are released. They don't tend to get chewed up and spit out like AAA games do.
The death bell is far from tolling for UWE, but it's a bit too bad NS2 couldn't have a million players on launch month like some sleeper hits do.
Name one "pub player" who can play at a similar level to Archaea. I'm all ears. As for "good organization" on publics; you're joking right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, because disliking the widely abused bunny hopping glitch and ignorance are certainly synonymous. I love how the glitch defenders always fall back on the old trope "oh well you don't understand how the mechanic worked" or "you don't understand the skill involved!"
It was a glitch, and a silly one at that (both in form and function), that a bunch of overly spergy key binders got obsessed with, and like some sad, bitter, form of techno addict are still experiencing withdrawal from.
What little "skill" was involved in performing it was negated at any "competitive" level anyway because everyone did it. Leaping around like a bunch of coked up lemurs everywhere.
As for your second point, I have watched some clan matches, which I find dull, and I just don't see the hype. They aim well, and they go in having a plan. They know the maps well and use them accordingly. It's not exactly rocket science or even chess. You can find good games on pub servers, sorry you can't seem to though.
<!--quoteo(post=2041358:date=Dec 7 2012, 01:22 AM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Dec 7 2012, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie made ns2 for noobs
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit
From what I've noticed noobs bring hate on themselves. They say ###### like "get camo, comm" or "where are the turrets in spawn?"
My general response is a polite shut the ###### up.
If a noob asked me an honest question about the game, rather than assuming he knows everything already, I would answer truthfully and everyone would be happy.
vets only get angry when noobs think they know what they're talking about and hence get trolled.
. Then maybe one day you'll be one
or get trolled and laughed at, quit and go play league of legends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly the kind of smug (and poorly written/expressed) attitude that will kill NS2. There is nothing new players love more than having "Vets" (whatever the hell that means, I've been playing NS since it came out in 02 and I don't call myself a Vet.) condescending them.
Did you fight in Vietnam? What kind of veteran are you? I would have a hard time calling myself and Natural Selection veteran with a straight face.
Your post doesn’t even make sense, how is "get camo comm" a horrible noob request. Under certain circumstances sure, but you don't specify.
Regardless NS2: "If you're a noob shut your mouth and learn from the vets." Is going to sell about 0 copies.
It's a fun game, if you take a video game this seriously (to the point of being this angry at new players who are the life blood of any game) you might want to consider taking some walks outside, or a therapist.
<!--quoteo(post=2041400:date=Dec 7 2012, 03:49 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 7 2012, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What little "skill" was involved in performing it was negated at any "competitive" level anyway because everyone did it. Leaping around like a bunch of coked up lemurs everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2041122:date=Dec 7 2012, 03:16 AM:name=cream)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cream @ Dec 7 2012, 03:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->going by your logic, if both of us can swing a racket in tennis, there's no skill involved? you can swing a racket in different ways to manipulate how you want the ball to go. this is the same case for bunnyhopping. you can probably do it like everybody else, but it doesn't mean you'll be able to do it as well as the next person.
if you do know bunnyhopping, you'll know that "doing it well" means that you gain a much substantial speed increase compared to when you're "doing it worse". this speed difference is apparent across maps as big as those in ns1. it can mean arriving early or late to where you're needed most.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i have to agree with fana here. you're talking about something you don't really know except on a superficial (very, very superficial) level. what's worse is that you don't read the points that people have brought up and the counter-arguments that followed.
<!--quoteo(post=2041400:date=Dec 7 2012, 03:49 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 7 2012, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for your second point, I have watched some clan matches, which I find dull, and I just don't see the hype. They aim well, and they go in having a plan. They know the maps well and use them accordingly. It's not exactly rocket science or even chess. You can find good games on pub servers, sorry you can't seem to though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's because there's nothing that really stands out in this game that only a small number of players can do except for the standard few (aiming well, knowing map well, etc). but nevertheless i think you'd be very surprised if you were to face a high-level competitive player. they do play the game much better than pubbies, even if you can't see it.
anyway, i'm not sure if you're being close-minded, or you're trying to spark a flame war here. i do agree that koven was probably a little too harsh in his post, but that's because he's particularly passionate about ns1 (and possibly ns2).
you don't have to worry about him killing ns2 though. i think he plays in strictly competitive games. no pubbies were hurt in the process... except here on the forums i guess.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Forum Go'er A makes some stupid statement about Bunnyhopping.
Mr. A is corrected and / or ridiculed for making ridiculous statement about said gameplay mechanic he or she neither understands from a mechanical, historical, or technical perspective.
Mr. A goes on to not really care; and cannot be persuaded nor is he / she looking to be persuaded in any manner.
Mr. A has a retarded baby who makes some stupid statement about Bunnyhopping.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Forum Go'er A makes some stupid statement about Bunnyhopping.
Mr. A is corrected and / or ridiculed for making ridiculous statement about said gameplay mechanic he or she neither understands from a mechanical, historical, or technical perspective.
Mr. A goes on to not really care; and cannot be persuaded nor is he / she looking to be persuaded in any manner.
Mr. A has a retarded baby who makes some stupid statement about Bunnyhopping.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh, no wonder only two or three competitive players i know of visit this place :X
It's going to be a number of factors which several posts on these forums have summed up more suiccintly than I ever could.
The main reasons why I stopped playing are:
1.) Performance
2.) Powernodes
3.) Unable to relocate Marine CC to anywhere on the map
For me, the game isn't fun. I get more frustrated than anything while playing. I can't really put my finger on any single reason where, if fixed, I'd come back in a heart beat.
The hardest thing to create is 'fun'.
As for the video, was nice, nothing new really, but I never did think about the ratio of skill-to-power being more than 10% but not 100% to keep the game encouraging to all.
But I guess someone aspiring to be a game developer already thought of that since I hear the word "pseudo intellectual" thrown around. -.- (Come on, who mulls over that sh*t on their free time...)
An ideal skill curve looks like this:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/V78m9.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Some wiggliness is ok, probably a good thing actually, but the graphing program I used doesn't like that type of thing very much. Irregardless here are the main points
- It doesn't start at zero, the game needs to hand hold you in the beginning so you don't feel like a retard, the skill floor to start playing the game is as low as possible
- the early progression gives big power gains, you feel like getting better at the game is a good thing to do
- There are no massive discrepancies, no cliffs where either practicing doesn't help you any more, or you suddenly open up a can of hellishness by mastering a certain skill
- Most importantly, it doesn't "plateau" by decreasing the amount of power you gain by gaining more skill. The ceiling never levels.
- Your first 300 some odd hours of play give you a 2-7 power jump, your second give you a 7-9 power jump, every 300 hours after that it's less than a full point, but no matter how much work you put in you always see some pay back
The reason why gaming is in a mess, because most "skill based games" have either made this mistake:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/D4M47.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
or they have made the mistake of starting the power graph at the zero point.
And most casual games do this:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/6WCdQ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
- just don't ever bother putting more than whatever level X amount of hours is into this game at which you hit the plateau.
I can't think of a game that I think has done this well outside of maybe Othello or checkers. Video games all seem to hate being comprehensive experiences.
See:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N50_hVRSt38" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N50_hVRSt38</a>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHqJpx1eeHw" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHqJpx1eeHw</a>
Note the size of quakecon, and that bunnyhopping is in all version of quake, and used extensively in competitive matches because it allows fast-paced gameplay that requires skill (practiced technique) to execute well.
It's interested to note that bunnyhopping is different in every game (Quake, CS, Warsow, etc), but the central idea of requiring practice on a technique allowing greater movement is what its all about. The fact that it originated as a glitch in a particular engine is incidental. Stainless steel was an accident too!
For anyone that has played Bastion (the isometric 'indie' game of 2011), you will see a similar mechanic. Surely many players find the ability to move quickly by doing an evade roll (spacebar) quite usefull - one could practice moving directionally while evading and be able to traverse the map much quicker than simply walking, being careful not to roll off the edge while dodging enemy attacks. I *loved* this mechanic, as did the friend that showed me the game.
It was a glitch, and a silly one at that (both in form and function), that a bunch of overly spergy key binders got obsessed with, and like some sad, bitter, form of techno addict are still experiencing withdrawal from.
What little "skill" was involved in performing it was negated at any "competitive" level anyway because everyone did it. Leaping around like a bunch of coked up lemurs everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121930" target="_blank">you clearly don't understand it, because if you did, you would realize that properly implemented bunnyhopping has absolutely nothing to do with "button mashing", which is something I already cleared on the first page of this thread.</a>
additionally, the reason why it was brought up in the first place was because it was a <i>skill-based</i> movement mechanic, meaning that it scaled in effectiveness the better the player was at bunnyhopping. so no, it wasn't "negated because everyone did it", that's like saying "aiming is irrelevant because everyone aims".
try again?
<!--quoteo(post=2041400:date=Dec 6 2012, 11:49 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 6 2012, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for your second point, I have watched some clan matches, which I find dull, and I just don't see the hype. They aim well, and they go in having a plan. They know the maps well and use them accordingly. It's not exactly rocket science or even chess. You can find good games on pub servers, sorry you can't seem to though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's actually really upsetting that you speak with such authority while knowing so little. just because you watched the matches does not mean you understood them or were able to comprehend them.
as far as the elitism - it isn't an overall community sentiment or anything even close to that, and it's certainly not what's "killing" the game. the competitive community is rather friendly in helping out new players and teams, because to do the opposite would be insane and would result in having no other teams to play. the strategies are shared openly among teams to help them grow, and this is where we run into the issue mentioned in the OP - the game is extremely shallow, and a lot of the mechanics are implemented poorly or incorrectly.. this is a reason why many of the top teams of NS1 have not returned to NS2, despite their initial interest.
on top of all of this, you have the performance and optimization issues, which is realistically the #1 reason why it's hard to sustain any large audience. you can't expect the majority of Steam users to have top-of-the-line machines.
perhaps the most frustrating part is the balance changes made due to these performance issues that were never reverted once performance improved... but that is another topic.
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit
From what I've noticed noobs bring hate on themselves. They say ###### like "get camo, comm" or "where are the turrets in spawn?"
My general response is a polite shut the ###### up.
If a noob asked me an honest question about the game, rather than assuming he knows everything already, I would answer truthfully and everyone would be happy.
vets only get angry when noobs think they know what they're talking about and hence get trolled.
If you're a noob shut your mouth and learn from the vets. Then maybe one day you'll be one
or get trolled and laughed at, quit and go play league of legends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YES
noobs get stomped by vets anyway and quit
vets get bored of ns2 because it was made for noobs and quit
From what I've noticed noobs bring hate on themselves. They say ###### like "get camo, comm" or "where are the turrets in spawn?"
My general response is a polite shut the ###### up.
If a noob asked me an honest question about the game, rather than assuming he knows everything already, I would answer truthfully and everyone would be happy.
vets only get angry when noobs think they know what they're talking about and hence get trolled.
If you're a noob shut your mouth and learn from the vets. Then maybe one day you'll be one
or get trolled and laughed at, quit and go play league of legends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2041383:date=Dec 6 2012, 10:54 PM:name=cream)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cream @ Dec 6 2012, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i can vouch for koven here (though personally i'd have phrased it in a more polite manner)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2041392:date=Dec 6 2012, 11:20 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 6 2012, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty much NS2 summed up. 100% correct.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2041442:date=Dec 7 2012, 03:09 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Dec 7 2012, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->YES<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kind of surprised to see so many people +1 Koven's post. "Shut the f--- up noobs" and "If you're a noob shut your mouth...or quit and play LoL."
That what NS2 is about?
That what NS2 is about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually the initial point is quite true - the correct way to balance a game is around the highest skill level, because the public players don't care about learning higher level mechanics (as evidenced by the amount of people playing refinery). nor will it matter, because the skilled players will still be able to crush the new players.
balancing around the low skill level leaves everyone dissatisfied, because the skilled players still manage to stomp but are unhappy with the game mechanics being poor, and the public players will not care about the finer mechanics (such as Celerity being deactivated in combat, or hit registry issues for example), and still end up being destroyed by skilled players.
additionally, I hope you realize how silly it is to take the sentiment of three posters as "what NS2 is about".
It's going to be a number of factors which several posts on these forums have summed up more suiccintly than I ever could.
The main reasons why I stopped playing are:
1.) Performance
2.) Powernodes
3.) Unable to relocate Marine CC to anywhere on the map
For me, the game isn't fun. I get more frustrated than anything while playing. I can't really put my finger on any single reason where, if fixed, I'd come back in a heart beat.
The hardest thing to create is 'fun'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, there's a hundred different reasons why any given player will "stop playing" or will "never get into the game". Many of them aren't fixable, many of them are.
Your reasons are legitimate, but they're different things than I care about. Performance and PowerNodes are hot button issues for me as well, However, I like the system we have now more than the universal relocates of NS1.
Finally, I also really care that this game feels dumbed down compared to NS1. I don't want bunnyhopping back specifically, but I don't feel like NS2 has given me any new skills to try to master in replacement of it, at least if NS2 had bunnyhopping back there would be a skill in the game that I find really fun and I'm still working on improving (even though I've spent the last 10 years of my life practicing it in various different games). Wall jumping is a step in the right direction, but I'm seeing very little gains from it, even though I've been working on it quite hard. I can accept that I need to work harder to get good combos, but I'm hearing players much better at it than I am complain that there are only a handful of locations in the maps where really good combos exist, and I'm pretty regularly running into the limits of speed gain you can achieve by improvisation. There could also very easily be other mechanics put in place to aid this situation that wouldn't greatly negatively effect the play experience of anyone except those who intentionally choose to not make an attempt to get better at the game. At a certain point the question I'm asking is "who do we cater to"?
There are many players out there like you who have good reasons for not being able to love the game right now. I don't agree with all their reasons, and the "main reason" for many of them is not the "main reason for me", but my opinion about what reasons I care most about isn't the only valid opinion out there, and their experience of having the game ruined by some specific thing is not less valuable than my experience.
First of all, I want to decry anyone who's coming here and getting mad that someone else is having fun with something different in the game than you are. I don't expect you to like bunnyhopping, but if you're going to come here and call me names because I like bunnyhopping? Well, frankly you're just a bad person and I want you to be gone. This goes both ways. There's high level players of NS2, and there were high level players of NS1, who criticized all different manner of things. Siege maps, gorge nests, co_mode, heavy armor. I can accept there are more "ideal" ways of playing the game, that it is frustrating to lose a pub match because someone wasted their res and it crippled your team just enough to tilt you over the tipping point... but Jesus, I don't come into your house and slap you around because you sorted the dinnerware in the cupboards wrong. At a certain point we all just have to let people live with the things they like, and if we can't play with them, than don't. There have always been pugs, scrims, and lots of other servers to go to if someone is doing it wrong somewhere on the internet. And if there isn't, well, maybe it's their turn to have it their way right now, and you can have your turn later. I have a lot of respect for competitive players, but I REALLY don't want to imply they are never wrong and never do damaging things to the community either. There's a lot of things said on that side of the fence that I've really disagreed with as well.
Secondly, while many people have legitimate criticisms and concerns, some people are just impossible to please, and they should be ignored. People come on the forums and post things about how skulks bouncing like rabbits is so ridiculous and silly and ruins the game for them... You're playing a game about humans who teleport in to fight bacteria based lifeforms in space with gunpowder based firearms and flamethrowers. I'm glad you're such an expert on bacterial based lifeforms to the point where you can educate us all the realism of their kinesiology. The mental gymnastics used to defend that point are so astounding that if they're ever accepted as proof of anything, then they can literally be used to prove any ridiculous point anyone could possibly dream up. At a certain point, some of you just have to accept that this game isn't for you, and you should probably be playing Arma II. This extends to the crowd who seems to believe that they should be able to do anything they want and still win. I think you'd be happier with single player games, there are fundamental design reasons why NS2 can't satisfy you. It would be a bad game if it put you on equal footing with people who actually try. The mechanics that put the game together, the guns that marines use, the abilities the aliens utilize, the designs of the creatures, they are tools to serve a specific game play experience. That game play experience is crafted to cast a wide net, and have a lot of people have fun with it, but there's just some concessions that aren't logical to make. When you go to buy a new car, you can complain all you want about how unintuitive the steering wheel is, and you just wish the car could identify your eye movement and go where you want it... but it will change nothing. There's a million reasons why the steering wheel is the tool used to do what it does, and sometimes it's just better to educate yourself before you make a statement that makes you look stupid.
So am I arguing that NS2 needs bunnyhopping? No. 'Needs' is a strong term. What I want to make clear, is there's a significant segment of this community, who contributed a lot to NS1, who is not being well serviced in NS2 because of the priority the NS2 team has put into creative direction at the expense of designed skill required mechanics. Pseudo "professional" players, and just really anyone who legitimately enjoys competition are, at some level, being pushed to the side of the road with this game in it's current iteration. I won't argue that Flayra, or any game developer of any sequel tailoring to an existing community, owes us anything. There is no obligation for NS2 to be the game that services all the dreams I had for it personally. What I want to argue is that, ignoring competitive players IS shooting the potential success of a game like NS2 in the foot. And that it would be nice of the NS2 team to take us a little more seriously in respect for what we did to make the NS community a more lively and successful place.
The first point, there's a LONG standing tradition in gaming that competitive play draws eyes in, and keeps hands on keyboards/controllers. This was true in NS1, it's VERY true for League of Legends, it's true for most of the most respected multiplayer games. Star Craft 2, Dota/WarCraft 3, Street Fighter, CounterStrike, Quake, TF2, Halo. There are 2 examples of team based shooters that have done well in gaming without a strong competitive scene. Battle Field, and Call of Duty. Both of these games have poor player retention, and that's why they CONSTANTLY get sequels. Both of these games are storied, and have a lot of people that hate them, and both of these games are actually small when it comes to concurrent hours being played in gaming. These 2 games sell well, they hype well, they ship copies well, but the evidence stacks up that people don't actually like them as much as other games out there. They move onto the next thing faster, and stick around for a shorter time. To me, the evidence is clear, if you're making a team based shooter, your model to follow is not one of those two games, ESPECIALLY if you're not a huge AAA studio. The most played multiplayer game in the world was made by an indie studio and it utilizes a simple but highly competitive design where you're encouraged, above all other things, to increase your skill. THAT'S the model for an indie game to follow! It's a hard success to repeat, but it's a hell of a lot more achievable than trying to be an outlier like COD or BF. A healthy community of competitive players bring in attention, they lend credence to the quality of a game, they push the metagame and expose everyone to new and interesting ways to approach the game constantly, and there are few people in the world better to have on board if you're trying to build nice concurrency rankings. The only people who play more than competitive players are obsessive addicts. Yup, I'll fully admit that, like almost any other person of this type, because they're people that take the game seriously, competitive players bring drama with them. I'm arguing the pros outweigh the cons, and it's FAR from needing to be all bad.
The second point, SO SO SOOOO much of the life in the NS1 community came from people who competed in the game. FFt, EC, both casual clans, but clans none the less. So many iconic members of this community past and present. A_Civilian, and Puzl of our past, and Fana, NeoRussia, and Lochlear (I think I spelled that wrong, sorry) of our present (for just the tiniest little tip of the iceberg). Competitive players have helped SO SO many mappers work on the balance of their project by devoting time to playtesting and discussion in ways that are actually constructive and useful. NS would not have been NS without competitive play. I find it EXTREMELY insidious that anyone should feel like they have to be apologetic for putting their passion and effort into being the best they can at this game because they enjoy competing. Like I said before, it's not that competitive players are owed anything, aside from maybe respect, but most of them aren't asking for a lot, and I think it could only be looked at as admirable of the UWE team to make this game more friendly for those types of people, ESPECIALLY because they are really not asking for anything that would necessarily have to hurt the game for everyone else. Most of the prominent figures have stated they're willing to forgo bunnyhopping specifically if they get some good skill based system regardless.
At the end of the day, it's not specifically that anyone's opinion is innately invalid, or stupid... But there are things that NS1 was, niche and competitive were two of them. And there are things that NS2 already is, and that NS2 really should be. I really just think that niche and competitive should fit there too.
That what NS2 is about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it is not.
This is just the personal hell of a few people. Actually the irony is really funny. Look at their posts full of hate and it is easy to understand that they don't help new players to learn the game. But instead talking down to them without any manners but with insults. Nobody will be willing to learn something from a ######-bag. Instead they react back with the same manners. And this way, those people are creating their own hell, they than crying about in the forums.
Fortunately most players I meet react very friendly when I explain them my opinion of NS2 tactics. :)
balancing around the low skill level leaves everyone dissatisfied, because the skilled players still manage to stomp but are unhappy with the game mechanics being poor, and the public players will not care about the finer mechanics (such as Celerity being deactivated in combat, or hit registry issues for example), and still end up being destroyed by skilled players.
additionally, I hope you realize how silly it is to take the sentiment of three posters as "what NS2 is about".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you're strictly right. I agree that it's VERY incorrect to NOT balance the game around the highest skill level, but I don't think it's correct to balance the game around one skill level and ignore all others. The skill curve itself should be intentionally designed and balanced. The ceiling lifted as much as possible, the cliffs and valleys ironed out. The best games encourage players to move from a scrubby bad player to the best player they can be natural by just constantly asking a little more of the player to reach the next rank, without ever being exceptionally unfair "oh well, now you have to unlearn all those old skills and learn this new on instead"
I believe a game where Team X beats Team Y 95% of the time at the lowest skill level is just as problematic as one where X beats Y 95% of the time at the highest skill level. A well balanced game balances for both.
Occasionally you need some concessions one way or another from one skill point to accommodate another one, and I think generally in those cases you should take from the low and give to the high, but as much as possible balance should be a universal thing that everyone gets to enjoy, not something that kicks in after 500 hours of play logged.
<!--quoteo(post=2041421:date=Dec 7 2012, 11:05 AM:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx @ Dec 7 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main reasons why I stopped playing are:
1.) Performance
2.) Powernodes
3.) Unable to relocate Marine CC to anywhere on the map<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me it would be:
- Too much player vs structures fights (powernodes, cysts, ..).
- Not enough freedom in structure placement (relocation, powernodes, cysts, ...).
- Too many hidden mechanics (poison bite, no res when dead, ...).
- Too many arbitrary mechanics (3 hive onos, two cc proto) that help balance but lack consistency or logic.
- Movement is not very fun (the builds where skulk wall jump was OP were much more fun).
- Alien upgrade mechanics. It's boring to wait for upgrades and abilities for your lifeform, and it doesn't really add any depth in the strategy to compensate.
- Overcrowded visuals (GUI, banners, ...)
- Lack of strategic depth.