Fade/Onos Conceptual Mismatch
Ivy
Join Date: 2012-11-19 Member: 172502Members
Join Date: 2012-11-19 Member: 172502Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Something that's bothered me since launch</div>Hi! I haven't made a topic here before. I'm a player who was new to Natural Selection as a concept when NS2 came out. I had some vague knowledge of the first game, but this was my real introduction to it.
What drew me to the game was the team-based gameplay and the cool aliens vs marines concept. I'm usually up for a good battle of humanity against the unknowable alien aggressor. Zerg? Awesome. Tyranids? Sign me up. Natural Selection 2 and the Kharaa make me happy in the same way. Team-based battles of the frontiersmen (where are the women from the concept art, guys) and the Kharaa are super entertaining and atmospheric from either side and I enjoy them thoroughly.
There's one thing that bothers me, though: the Fade and the Onos, mostly the latter. There's something about them that clashes with the whole setting. The fact is, while my conceptual headspace of "aliens" allows for (and encourages) them to be really tough, it doesn't really include coming in, killing a marine or two and then running away, using their large hp pools to absorb bullets the entire way. This really breaks the immersion for me; it just feels wrong and takes me out of the game.
I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way, either. The Onos doesn't intuitively feel like you should be running away at the drop of a hat, and the most common newbie Onos mistake is to overcommit and end up dying as a result. The Fade is not quite as bad, but often does the same thing - kills one marine, then books it with Blink, absorbing bullets the whole way.
Anyway! This has been bothering me for a while and I wanted to share it. If you don't feel the same way, that's good too! But it's something that feels really weird to me and detracts from the experience a bit. I do think the game would be better if a way could be found to change this bullet sponge behaviour!
Thank-you for reading!
What drew me to the game was the team-based gameplay and the cool aliens vs marines concept. I'm usually up for a good battle of humanity against the unknowable alien aggressor. Zerg? Awesome. Tyranids? Sign me up. Natural Selection 2 and the Kharaa make me happy in the same way. Team-based battles of the frontiersmen (where are the women from the concept art, guys) and the Kharaa are super entertaining and atmospheric from either side and I enjoy them thoroughly.
There's one thing that bothers me, though: the Fade and the Onos, mostly the latter. There's something about them that clashes with the whole setting. The fact is, while my conceptual headspace of "aliens" allows for (and encourages) them to be really tough, it doesn't really include coming in, killing a marine or two and then running away, using their large hp pools to absorb bullets the entire way. This really breaks the immersion for me; it just feels wrong and takes me out of the game.
I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way, either. The Onos doesn't intuitively feel like you should be running away at the drop of a hat, and the most common newbie Onos mistake is to overcommit and end up dying as a result. The Fade is not quite as bad, but often does the same thing - kills one marine, then books it with Blink, absorbing bullets the whole way.
Anyway! This has been bothering me for a while and I wanted to share it. If you don't feel the same way, that's good too! But it's something that feels really weird to me and detracts from the experience a bit. I do think the game would be better if a way could be found to change this bullet sponge behaviour!
Thank-you for reading!
Comments
I personally hate the Onos. To me its just a terrible lifeform that only serves to bore me. I know some people like it but for its cost, it's simply too efficient when a good player is piloting it imo, that may sound retarded but a good player piloting an exo is vulnerable even with a squad of marines around him whereas even a single Onos is very rarely vulnerable, only jetpackers can kill one and that's if he's already injured. Too much health, too much speed, too easy to kill, too easy to acquire (tres eggs mainly). Wouldn't mind so much if Dual miniguns could be bought with tres, ARCs had slightly increased range or bile bomb had slightly less range.
Fade on the other hand is a class that I adore. I don't mind the "run back to heal", that's how a fade should work in some way, hit and run tactics but I get NS1 fade players will disagree but I don't care about NS1 at this point.
The Onos does seem very unintuitive and "iffy" at the moment. I would expect it to be bigger and slower, but less susceptible to damage. An ability called bone shield was planned, which was, I assume, intended to accomplish just that. No word on that yet, but we can only hope.
A game like this is exceptionally difficult to balance so this idea could be devastating to the game.
buff fade hp/armor a bit and add metabolize or acid rocket instead of vortex
game instantly more fun and much more balanced (and onos more fun to play and play against)
This however has a downside to it where marines with jetpacks will continue to both outrun you, and do damage to you from the top (which does not have armor plating)
That puts a 10 T/Pres invesment into the best weapon against an onos with little counter.
What i do want onos to do in the future is be a real bad ass siege unit. Something that just wrecks ######. Harder than it does now.
Perhaps slower, But a lot less of an Anti-marine unit as it is currently pushing to be.
Some changes i would propose is,
*Remove stomp, replace it with an ability that lets you buff team-mates, like a roar. this will make other units fade/lerks stay around you as they defend you from marines with jetpacks or ones that try to walk around.
*Make him twice as slow as he is now but twice as strong on the front / sides Leave top and back exposed.
*Remove charge, and replace it with a charge up bar that allows you to deal really hard hits to buildings with the next attack. Tripple if not quadrupple the damage output.
Make it so the charge up bar can only get off two hits before the energy runs out.
This makes both team pushes for aliens a lot more viable.
If the onos decides to ransack a structure in half (lets take a powernode) he'll expose his back, Which allows marines to target him better.
Less running away, and more of a charge in and wreck stuff unit.
The fade is and has allways been developed as an assassin unit in NS2, in NS1 it was more of a footsoldier, an upgrade from the skulk.
The only revisit i'd make with fade is the use of vortex. Make it not cost energy if it does not summon one, and have it's function more defined.
If you are still looking for an immersive solution, the answer is in mindset. Gun's shoot sharp metal pieces at high speeds that are designed to hurt. That might possibly be immersive enough reason for onoses to run away. Or nanites.
I used to think boneshield reducing damage and all of that would work, but after alot more thinking, i don't think its a good solution. A mechanic that relies entirely on where your model is facing or orientated in a game that has considerable animation lag is probably not a good idea. Bone shield would most likely have some kind of mouselook modifier as well to prevent view snapping or 360 whirlwind boneshielding, which is pretty close to the purest evil i can think of. Mouselook modifying that is. Charge is terrible to use on a number of different levels as a result of it.
And then there are the gameplay/player scaling problems with balancing onos around it being unable to disengage which i don't want to TL;DR.
As for fade, they're kinda supposed to hit and get out, which is communicated from the way blink has been implemented all the way down to awkward walking animations.
They're just out of place
I understand what you're saying about the Onos though - thinking about an alien like that in popular fiction you might expect them to charge head on and fight until they're killed. The fact that they have to played as a hit-and-run class instead is a natural consequence of how expensive they are, you can't throw away a lifeform like that on a single attack. The only way to change that would be to completely revamp how they work, like make them cheaper and more powerful but with a limited lifespan(i.e. the Tank in L4D). No idea if that would be a good idea or not.
I understand what you're saying about the Onos though - thinking about an alien like that in popular fiction you might expect them to charge head on and fight until they're killed. The fact that they have to played as a hit-and-run class instead is a natural consequence of how expensive they are, you can't throw away a lifeform like that on a single attack. The only way to change that would be to completely revamp how they work, like make them cheaper and more powerful but with a limited lifespan(i.e. the Tank in L4D). No idea if that would be a good idea or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right! It's not that they'd fight until they're killed, but once they were in a fight they'd be committed. If you imagine it in a story, once they were in they'd probably either kill everyone or the survivors would retreat. The thing itself wouldn't be running away as it got filled with bullets, escaping only because of its immense health pool; or perhaps you can imagine it limping away, grievously injured.
I deliberately avoided speculating on a method of changing them to address that issue because if it were addressed, I wouldn't really mind how it was done.
I understand the Fade is a hit and run lifeform, but I do feel like it has a dash of the same thing. Often it feels like it Blinks away, absorbing bullets the whole time it does so. I guess it feels a bit... low on finesse? Again, it doesn't feel like it's hitting and running using subtlety, as a Skulk or even Lurk might, but that it's doing it using its hp pool to tank the shots while it gets away, albeit faster.
Re: immersion vs gameplay, I'm not really sure that's a big issue. The gameplay for the Onos especially is, well, a bit one-dimensional at the moment, the major decision point being how much to commit. I don't think making the Onos unable to retreat without any other changes would be a workable solution.
Thank-you for your heartfelt comments, everyone!
so then what WOULD be the attacker class, since just about every other class is trash after 8 or so minutes.
Edit: Onos is best with another onos, even better with 2 more, etc etc, I think there has been a thread about the 'onos roll' we see from a stock piling of onos. They just avoid the exos and base plunder so much more effectivley, about the only thing 'wrong' I can see with onos is the pressure placed upon the first onos unit. No one expects (except the nub marine inside it) the first exo out the door to survive to the end of the game.
Marine Exo Suit is super slow moving and requires support or even a group of Skulks can take it down. I wouldn't say there is a great deal of skill in using an Exo either, its the supporting players that need to be skilful. If the commander uses the recall ability basically any Exos out of a base are just waiting to die.
On the other hand a lone Onos can just go around doing what it wants and easily escape if it gets into any trouble.
In terms of game play as an alien, its like you have a whole bunch of evolutions and all of them basically do the same thing: Hit and run. Your most expensive tanky unit is just the best at hitting and running.
From the marine perspective the only way to really deal with an Onos is jet packs, Exos are easily killed by an Onos hit and run. Which is fine until the Alien team just reaches a critical mass of Onos, where some are always hitting while others are running.
It just doesn't seem very fun for either side..
Basically long story short, it's a huge deal and feels really lame, to lose an onos. I have a feeling onos would act more like one would expect if it didn't mean risking 75 res. I'm not saying it should cost less, just saying don't expect aliens that have been saving to 75 res to not act a little bit like a wussy.
It's actually much worse for Marines to lose an Exo, because unlike the Onos, the Marine commander cannot give their team Dual Exos, only the cheaper Claw Exo. More over there isn't any way for a Marine to avoid losing their Exo, it can't run away, all it can do is stand its ground and try to kill what ever is attacking it.
Marines don't complain because they know Exos can't get away. Aliens complain about Onos dying because only a nub fails to get their Onos out of trouble!
I'm not really sure that comparing Onos to Exo is even really valid. Besides costing the same Res, they have completely different roles and uses.
It's actually much worse for Marines to lose an Exo, because unlike the Onos, the Marine commander cannot give their team Dual Exos, only the cheaper Claw Exo. More over there isn't any way for a Marine to avoid losing their Exo, it can't run away, all it can do is stand its ground and try to kill what ever is attacking it.
Marines don't complain because they know Exos can't get away. Aliens complain about Onos dying because only a nub fails to get their Onos out of trouble!
I'm not really sure that comparing Onos to Exo is even really valid. Besides costing the same Res, they have completely different roles and uses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most marines place there exo in horrid conditions and end up losing it, exos destroy oni if they stick to areas that give them an advantage. If your standing at a loopy areas where an onos can get on you before your guns spin up your dead, place yourself in a long hallway and you'll kill any oni that trys to come running down at you. Basically what it comes down to is dont view and exo as a pusher, they are much better at defense or support ( aka behind a big group of marines )
I'm more refering to games that aliens don't have 3 hives, before they can drop tres onos, cause at that point I figure they have usually won, I more mean what happens before that point.
As far as comparing exos and onos I agree, they aren't that similar, I'd try a better comparison but the only other item marines drop and lose the same way as aliens lose their lifeforms is a jet pack, which costs 10 res. I love the asymmetry in this game but it makes comparisons silly at times. Plus exos being ranged, it makes the whole running away scenario a lot different, an onos has to run into the middle of a base to get a CC or right up to a marine to kill him, which often times is surrounded by other marines. Exos usually shoot from doorways, them running away is backing up around the corner they are next to.
I really just was trying to say that on aliens you have to horde your resources differently, if you want something that costs 75 res. When I'm on marines I rarely even think about saving for an exo, for one because I feel pretty strong without spending 50 or 75 res on something, but since I usually can just grab shotties and welders off the ground, I can end up with enough res for an exo without my gameplay being effected much. I don't feel like I made a huge sacrifice to get it. As an alien I can be a skulk... then a skulk some more... oh and maybe if I'm lucky a fade will die near me.. and I'll still be a skulk, on a team that just lost a 50 res 'item' and can't just pick it back up, and then go onos. After skulking it up a whole game, you don't really wanna become an onos then die and go straight back to being a skulk.
But I might see it as more extreme, I avoid going onos because I hate the idea of losing 75 res like that, and the fact that I love diving into battle and not running away the second I get kind of low. It's the same for me on marines, I am much happier getting 10 res jetpacks, even with an lmg it's still pretty strong.
And yes indeed I was mostly considering aliens side, I've played both sides and as a marine I certainly hate when an onos runs in, causes havoc, runs out. Onos runs in, marines beacon, onos is gone before it even goes off. Onos runs in, kills two marines, runs away. I think the main hope people have is to make other lifeforms more viable. So aliens don't depend on the onos so much.
This is totally true: fade needs a health nerf.
Basically long story short, it's a huge deal and feels really lame, to lose an onos. I have a feeling onos would act more like one would expect if it didn't mean risking 75 res. I'm not saying it should cost less, just saying don't expect aliens that have been saving to 75 res to not act a little bit like a wussy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Usually by the time an onos dies he's racked up enough pres to immediately go fade or onos again. Losing an onos is only a big deal when it's the first one or two when the alien has spent most of the time saving up by playing skulk for 5 minutes.
Exos take ###### ages to hit the field and even then if you exo rush they have ###### all armour until you research all three which is expensive and also takes time. Onos only requires a second hive, exos take a second cc, 40 tres protolab and exos research and then dual gun research too, plus 75 more tres for the armour (granted onos carapice takes some tres too). Thank god the CC was reduced from 20 to 15.
Recent changes prevent players picking up their weapons so often as the drop timer was drastically reduced, if i drop a weapon in cafe and spawn in terminal, i'll be lucky to get that weapon back and to add insult to injury none of the marine weapons are really upgrades, they're all side grades, yet cost 20-25 res. LMG actually has a higher DPS than the shotgun yet it's free and shotgun costs all your initial pres. Plus spending 25 pres on a weapon doesn't actually make you any harder to kill like evolving a life form grants you superior armour. I'm fine with the asymmetry of the armour, but buying a new weapon isn't the go to to being a more powerful marine.
Nobody complains about losing an exos the same way aliens complain about losing an onos because losing an exos usually spells GG and every F4's, losing an onos has nowhere near the same impact for aliens.
But i guess Redemption is on the list of features from NS1 that nobody ever liked, like Devour or Webs...