<!--quoteo(post=2039335:date=Dec 3 2012, 11:18 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Dec 3 2012, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure that will be coming soon. It's certainly been discussed. Patience, young padawan :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not this attitude... people said the same thing for Diablo 3... lol
lololololol "They patching it! quit crying and wait!" 3 months later still no fix to spammers, to spammers that spam add friends, PVP, balance issues, lag issues, itemization issues and content promised for release and never delivered..
NO PATIENCE!! I had patience waiting YEARS for beta to end, now it is over and "officially" released you are going to tell me I STILL need to be patient? @#$% that :P
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<!--quoteo(post=2039461:date=Dec 4 2012, 09:07 AM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Dec 4 2012, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines: "Yay, the comm can drop us dual exos now!"
Aliens: "Yay, their comm can drop them 75 res dual exos now!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This Trust me kid, dropping dual exos will be a waste of res, jetpacks are the most cost effective unit for marines, not exosuits.
Dual exos aren't a waste of rez when there is a large stampede of Onos (think 3+ in an 8 player game). The point is that the marine needs to be able to decide to drop it, whether or not it actually is bad.
I agree. Once a Marine dumps 75 pres on a duel exo, it is very unlikely that the player will be able to purchase another one that game. An single duel exo is capable of taking down a hive by himself in approximately 20 seconds of shooting. They absolutely destroy hives once a push is successful.
<!--quoteo(post=2039458:date=Dec 3 2012, 05:03 PM:name=slimebuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slimebuck @ Dec 3 2012, 05:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not this attitude... people said the same thing for Diablo 3... lol
lololololol "They patching it! quit crying and wait!" 3 months later still no fix to spammers, to spammers that spam add friends, PVP, balance issues, lag issues, itemization issues and content promised for release and never delivered..
NO PATIENCE!! I had patience waiting YEARS for beta to end, now it is over and "officially" released you are going to tell me I STILL need to be patient? @#$% that :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, you bought an indie game! Go soak your head and stop being an ass!
<!--quoteo(post=2039474:date=Dec 3 2012, 03:17 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Dec 3 2012, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This Trust me kid, dropping dual exos will be a waste of res, jetpacks are the most cost effective unit for marines, not exosuits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not this, 'son'. Define efficient. Where is your firepower? What do you do when there are two onos playing back and forth at two different tech points? Do you send a single JP SG marine after each? What good is that? Do you send three after one? Your other tech point gets rolled. Just like you can't litter all your item slots with cheap stuff in DOTA or can't win a 200 v 200 battle with nothing but zerglings in SC, you can't just buy jetpacks for all your marines to play George Jetson and call it a day. Sometimes dual exo over jetpack is a valid choice.
Besides even if dual exos are not the most efficient use of resources, they sure as hell beat ###### exos or sentry spam which is what many pub commanders tend to spend excess tres on.
<!--quoteo(post=2039562:date=Dec 3 2012, 10:45 PM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Dec 3 2012, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=2039474:date=Dec 3 2012, 07:17 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Dec 3 2012, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This Trust me kid, dropping dual exos will be a waste of res, jetpacks are the most cost effective unit for marines, not exosuits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not this, 'son'. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes 'this'. He's very much right on the money. Right now EXOs are a waste of res against any competent alien team, end of story. Do I really need to start listing off all the reasons/flaws the EXO has? Don't get me started on how easy it is for me to solo a dual-mini EXO as a skulk. (I can occasionally solo two if I catch them without a marine around.)
Honestly, they are so easy to kill unless you're on a 20 player server and there are 5 of them with 4 jetpack/shottie welders covering them. With one or two EXOs, even if they have a welder or two, you send in a couple Onos, one stomps and the other kills the first EXO. (if the welders have jetpacks they will be flying around and not welding, same difference) Once the first EXO is down, second Onos moves up to take over, (and takes the fire from the remaining EXO) and while the second Onos kills the second EXO, the wounded Onos can stomp to prevent welding. Should one (or even both) Onos die after killing the EXOs, who cares? The khamm can drop another Onos egg, while the marines who had the EXO will never have enough p.res to buy another - and it dual-minis can't be dropped. Even without Onos, lerk and gorge with bile can make life hell for them, and the lerk can easily kill off the welders with spores. Rinse and repeat with skulk kills.
Compared to an Onos, the EXO is a complete waste of res right now against competent alien teams. It's that simple. They're fun to buy if you have the game in the bag, but otherwise there are better things to spend p.res on.
The problem that you commonly see with exos is that they don't know how to position the exo. An exo positioned properly will SUPPORT an extremely strong push. What is incorrect is to put an exo into the frontline, as though it were an onos. An exo is an extremely different style of play that has to be accustomed to in order to maintain effectiveness. While it is similar to the Onos, it is distinct in its function. It is not a tank, it is a slow moving machine of destruction if wielded properly. As I've said, however, people have the misconception to utilize an exo as the brunt of an attack, rather as the support. Marines make the push, and an exo supports them.
<!--quoteo(post=2039607:date=Dec 3 2012, 08:32 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 3 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes 'this'. He's very much right on the money. Right now EXOs are a waste of res against any competent alien team, end of story. Do I really need to start listing off all the reasons/flaws the EXO has?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me do that for you. Compared to an onos, dual minigun exos are slow, fragile, have zero self-sufficiency, have lower sustained damage, take more time and tres to field, don't regenerate, can't cc, can't be dropped by comms, and most importantly they can't flee fights that go wrong. They have higher burst damage and can trample eggs, yay! However they can't build, can't be nanoed, can't be beaconed and can't use PGs, oh and by the way they can be soloed by a bloody skulk, good luck doing the same with a marine against an onos. I might have missed some, the list is long.
In short yes dual exos are utter crap and single exos are their inbred offsprings. A lone onos is a threat in its own right, a solo exo is a liability. And despite all this I still maintain that a dual exo is a valid choice, or the lesser of the two evils if you will.
Consider that scenario I described in my previous post: Two onos threatening two different tech points, and say it's a 8v8. A solo jetpack marine is of course worthless against an onos, it can't even carry enough ammo to kill it. If you split your forces and send three after one onos then the remaining 4 marines have to handle another onos and 5 skulks at the very least. In other words they will lose. If you keep your forces together then the moment you try to move out on one front you will immediately get backstabbed by the other onos. However you can place a dual minigun exo at one tech point - preferably far from the entrance with an armory block - and thus have a single marine player keep one onos player in check. This lets you move out on the other front with another exo and the rest of your marines.
Although it is not perfect because sooner rather than later that onos will abuse its mobility to find another weak spot and the exo still has its numerous weaknesses, it is better than sitting in base playing tag with onoses and letting the aliens slowly take over the map.
This is the reason why I think marines are playing against a timer: They don't have a proper response to the onos. Exos lack mobility, jetpacks lack firepower.
<!--quoteo(post=2039474:date=Dec 3 2012, 11:17 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Dec 3 2012, 11:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This Trust me kid, dropping dual exos will be a waste of res, jetpacks are the most cost effective unit for marines, not exosuits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> JPs are not always 100% cost effective if your late game FPS is somewhere in the range of 10 to 20. Much easier to rack up kills and maneuver an exo when the game goes into bullet time chug-chug mode.
<!--quoteo(post=2039607:date=Dec 4 2012, 05:32 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 4 2012, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not this, 'son'. Yes 'this'. He's very much right on the money. Right now EXOs are a waste of res against any competent alien team, end of story. Do I really need to start listing off all the reasons/flaws the EXO has? Don't get me started on how easy it is for me to solo a dual-mini EXO as a skulk. (I can occasionally solo two if I catch them without a marine around.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From someone who actually goes marine comm quite often, I say very much so not this ^.
I see a lot of marine comms living in the past, thinking its still release day patch, back when jetpacks actually did anything. Back when whips killed more aliens than marines, and crags were defensive in the way that they blocked bullets, but did precious little else.
Now, if you put down 2 crags and a whip, the area is effectively jetpack proof. With the massive buffs to alien structures, there simply isn't anything something as mobile as a jetpacker can do. Without their ninja strike effectiveness, jetpacks have absolutley no utility whatsoever, and I view them as a complete waste of resources. Even jetpack welder marines spend to much time flying around trying to avoid death, rather than just standing their and welding.
Exos on the other hand. Well, do they have incredible alien killing abilities? Not really. Are they impervious to harm and impossible to kill? No. What can they do? They kill hives like nobodies business. Even a hive with 4 crags around it can be taken down by a single dual minigun exo (which is more than can be said for +-4 light marines).
Marine games now revolve entirely around the ability to kill a hive within 10-15 seconds after first assaulting it, and a jetpack ain't gonna help with that.
Quit throwing in silly arguments like "exo is not cost effective - thats why you should not be able to buy it".Even if it is,I dont see any reason not to have a tactical option to drop full exo.
I had a situation in game when none of my marines had enough P.Res to get double exo when I researched it and our second techpoint was getting pushed by a supported early onos...I had 75 res and dropping a double exo would turn the tides of battle,but I had to buy 50 res exo and it did not have enough firepower to take point back,so after my team got enough resources to get duals,second techpoint was lost.
Patches were annoying in 1998. Try patching Baldurs Gate 1 over a single adsl 15.6Kb/s connection.
Now it's 2012, you have STEAM to do it for you.
The hard part used to be having to download a patch, now it's *waiting for the next one anxiously* ... I'd take it as a good sign people want to see the game continue to evolve.
<!--quoteo(post=2039639:date=Dec 4 2012, 01:59 AM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Dec 4 2012, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me do that for you. Compared to an onos, dual minigun exos are slow, fragile, have zero self-sufficiency, have lower sustained damage, take more time and tres to field, don't regenerate, can't cc, can't be dropped by comms, and most importantly they can't flee fights that go wrong. They have higher burst damage and can trample eggs, yay! However they can't build, can't be nanoed, can't be beaconed and can't use PGs, oh and by the way they can be soloed by a bloody skulk, good luck doing the same with a marine against an onos. I might have missed some, the list is long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yeah, others off the top of my head would be weapons upgrades have no effect on EXOs, they can burst eggs but not cysts, EXOs can't crouch, the 'jetpack' ability takes them all of 4 feet off the ground, they can't repair at an armory, the bullet spread is *massive* compared to all other ranged weapons which means lerks can easily spike an EXO from range, EXOs can only be purchased from protolabs so if you have a second command chair without a protolab nearby you have to walk, muzzle flash makes it nearly impossible to see close targets, the Onos run speed is twice as fast as an EXO (7 for Onos and 3.7 for EXO - even a gorge is faster at 5.1)... Yeah I could go on too, but it's kinda pointless.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In short yes dual exos are utter crap and single exos are their inbred offsprings. A lone onos is a threat in its own right, a solo exo is a liability. And despite all this I still maintain that a dual exo is a valid choice, or the lesser of the two evils if you will.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't disagree wit you here. Hey, if this is the only tool the marines have, then even if it is massively gimped it's still a tool. I buy them on occasion when there is nothing else to spend res on.
I'm sure the day will come when they get balanced out, until they they are what they are.
From what I have seen I feel that Exos are better for defending your rear most base even if its just a single person with an Exo and a comm with say 5 Macs on him in your spawn.
In a situation like that dual or single exo is great to cover your bases from a last minute skulk rush with MACs in the room, while the rest of the team pushes up etc. I have seen this method used on a few occasions and if the Marine Comm is paying attention then a base skulk rush wouldn't work with an good Exo there.
I feel Jetpack marines are probably the fastest way to destroy a hive if properly coordinated and outfitted, one flamethrower marine and 3 others using either the Machine gun or Shotgun is crazy fast.
<!--quoteo(post=2039639:date=Dec 3 2012, 11:59 PM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Dec 3 2012, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me do that for you. Compared to an onos, dual minigun exos are slow, fragile, have zero self-sufficiency, have lower sustained damage, take more time and tres to field, don't regenerate, can't cc, can't be dropped by comms, and most importantly they can't flee fights that go wrong. They have higher burst damage and can trample eggs, yay! However they can't build, can't be nanoed, can't be beaconed and can't use PGs, oh and by the way they can be soloed by a bloody skulk, good luck doing the same with a marine against an onos. I might have missed some, the list is long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You forgot that bile bomb is a pretty hard counter to them, where as there is currently no hard counter to onos of any real description.
Bile bomb isn't exactly a "hard counter" to exos, because the gorge can be killed pretty easily if it's not extremely careful. Situationally though, when the gorges have the high ground (sorting) or there are obstacles between them and the exo so the arc of the bile bomb can be exploited, it's ridiculously nice.
On the other hand, a rambonos can still be killed quickly with jetpackers who chase him. It's probably a bit more difficult because the onos moves 2x (or even more?) faster than an exo I think, especially with celerity. Really, it's the mobility of the oni which makes them that dangerous, not the HP or damage they deal. Then again, they need that mobility to contend with jetpacks and to survive. Asymmetry, yay.
<!--quoteo(post=2039736:date=Dec 4 2012, 05:45 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Dec 4 2012, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bile bomb isn't exactly a "hard counter" to exos, because the gorge can be killed pretty easily if it's not extremely careful. Situationally though, when the gorges have the high ground (sorting) or there are obstacles between them and the exo so the arc of the bile bomb can be exploited, it's ridiculously nice.
On the other hand, a rambonos can still be killed quickly with jetpackers who chase him. It's probably a bit more difficult because the onos moves 2x (or even more?) faster than an exo I think, especially with celerity. Really, it's the mobility of the oni which makes them that dangerous, not the HP or damage they deal. Then again, they need that mobility to contend with jetpacks and to survive. Asymmetry, yay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I count jetpacks as a soft counter, because you need like 4 of them to chase down 1 onos in order for them to be a game changer. Granted bile gorges can be killed, but in most hive rooms there's some position where gorges can just be absolutely evil and SMASH exos to bits. Some doorways are basically unbreachable.
If you can slip past the aliens and jetpack on top of their hive with a flamethrower, you can do a lot of damage before the aliens finish you off.
As others have mentioned, Exos are primarily for support on the front lines, but is often abused as a front line <i>pusher</i>. This usually spells doom for exos unless they have a crap-ton of support from MACs and welders.
In my opinion, Exos and Jetpack marines have their roles unintentionally swapped in most marine mindsets. If jetpacks were considered the front line pushers and the exos were front line holders, I'd imagine that marine pushes would fare better.
I mean, right now you are lucky to get one marine with a flamethrower/GL. I mostly see LMGers and Shotgunners, and those aren't the best for Hive clearing. If one or two more people in any given push also had a flamethrower or GL, most of the alien buildings would die rather quickly. I think the lack of flamethrowers/GLs can be mostly blamed on the shotgun costing so damn much. If you die twice with the SG, that's pretty much 40 pres down the drain, cause every time it seems that some guy picks up your SG and dies in some unknown corner somewhere. That, and Comms sitting on 70-120 Tres and not dropping <i>any</i> weapons.
I like how everyone seems to have forgotten that armour upgrades affect an exos health. No armour upgrades? 260 HP for you in a 75 res upgrade.
An exo scales with the game and an onos less so; he only really needs carapice or celerity to ensure he can't be chased or mobbed and he's pretty much at 90% effectiveness. You might have full armour, but a dual exos is still is nowhere as effective as an onos and takes far longer to hit the field what with the necessity to research and build all the structures necessary to get it out in the first place (thank god onos was moved to second hive, amirite).
onos = 40 tres for second hive exos = 15 for cc, 40 for proto, 30 for exo research and more tres and time for dual guns (then 20 for armslab, 15, 25 and 35 for respective armour levels). Then you still need a welder bum buddy to ensure you don't get ganked by a skulk which cost 0 pres for the alien player.
You forgot the res for a shift hive, crag hive, spur, shell, carapace and celerity. And as long as you're comparing both at full strength, add another hive, shade hive, veil, silence, and stomp to the list of resources that need to be spent. Now multiply that by roughly 1.5 to take into account the marines have an easier time holding res than the aliens (and thus each res earned is worth more to them). Also, onoses have a bum buddy delegated to support role too - the gorge, which costs 5 more res, and can't really defend itself (whereas welder marines still have a gun).
Having said that, onos is more useful than duel exo. But looking at it from a 'resources spent to get the tech' perspective, both are pretty similar in terms of cost. Although on the marine side you forgot to add in armory and advanced armory.
On topic of OP, I do think duel exos should be droppable on 3 tech points. Exosuits aren't all that good anyway. The non-terrible version should at least be droppable by the comm.
I think the reason you can't drop Dual Exos is that UWE simply made the commander 4x2 button interface (8 buttons) first and THEN realized for all possible options - 7 usual drops (SG, welder, mine, GL, flame, JP, Exo) + one for Dual Exo + one for going back to "assist players" - you'd need 9 buttons. Guess which option was dropped then:D
Not to say that this does not need to be fixed anyway! Why waste 50res on Exo drop if you could have a Dual Exo for 75. IF you drop an Exo, Dual is surely the better use for tres.
<!--quoteo(post=2039787:date=Dec 4 2012, 07:01 AM:name=hozz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hozz @ Dec 4 2012, 07:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the reason you can't drop Dual Exos is that UWE simply made the commander 4x2 button interface (8 buttons) first and THEN realized for all possible options - 7 usual drops (SG, welder, mine, GL, flame, JP, Exo) + one for Dual Exo + one for going back to "assist players" - you'd need 9 buttons. Guess which option was dropped then:D
Not to say that this does not need to be fixed anyway! Why waste 50res on Exo drop if you could have a Dual Exo for 75. IF you drop an Exo, Dual is surely the better use for tres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Honestly, I think Fist exo's should be taken out of the game. They're not a real choice right now. There're basically a waste of a player spot because they're not deadly enough for aliens to have to be afraid of them, and they're not mobile enough to do anything useful on the map.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2039788:date=Dec 4 2012, 01:04 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 4 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, I think Fist exo's should be taken out of the game. They're not a real choice right now. There're basically a waste of a player spot because they're not deadly enough for aliens to have to be afraid of them, and they're not mobile enough to do anything useful on the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think a better solution would be to make the fist exo more powerful against structures, and the dual exo less powerful against structures. That way you actually have a reason to pick the cheaper option sometimes (and who doesn't want to walk up to a hive and fist it to death anyways?). Should make for some interesting combat choices too, as going into melee range of a hive can make you very vulnerable to alien attacks.
As a side note, I have similar thoughts about the flamethrower. Since it makes for awful player vs. player combat (a no aim required weapon that drains energy is just obnoxious); why not gear it towards structure damage instead? It already kind of is, but I would suggest making it even more so, and somehow making it clear to the players that this is an anti-structure weapon. Give it more structure damage and less player damage, and perhaps some anti-structure side-effect; like inhibiting structure abilities like hive heal, shade cloak, and so on.
<!--quoteo(post=2039781:date=Dec 4 2012, 11:51 AM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Dec 4 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You forgot the res for a shift hive, crag hive, spur, shell, carapace and celerity. And as long as you're comparing both at full strength, add another hive, shade hive, veil, silence, and stomp to the list of resources that need to be spent. Now multiply that by roughly 1.5 to take into account the marines have an easier time holding res than the aliens (and thus each res earned is worth more to them). Also, onoses have a bum buddy delegated to support role too - the gorge, which costs 5 more res, and can't really defend itself (whereas welder marines still have a gun).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apologetics don't make a particularly strong arguement.
Those things aren't necassery. You don't need a crag/shift/shade hive to get an onos and you only need a crag hive or shift hive in order to get a spur or shell for one of the 2 major onos upgrades before the onos is performing <i>close</i> to full strength. Exos don't scale the same way and I wasn't comparing them at full strength i was comparing their strength throughout the game.
As long as you have 1 hive that might be upgraded the onos is performing close to it's full strength while the exos is performing less than a marine due to it's lack of self sufficiency and general low defences; plus the onos doesn't need a gorge to stay alive, it's quite happy running back and forth between a hive. Exos can't do that.
I also havn't noticed that extractors are particularly easier to hold than a harvester. I've noticed that extractor go down much quicker and to fewer players and are much harder to get back up than harvesters which incidently require zero player cooperation to setup so long as the respective flank is being pressured. I just don't see the connection that alien res is worth more than marine res when currently aliens win 60% of the time and can spam 75 tres onos eggs.
<!--quoteo(post=2039791:date=Dec 4 2012, 07:15 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 4 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a better solution would be to make the fist exo more powerful against structures, and the dual exo less powerful against structures. That way you actually have a reason to pick the cheaper option sometimes (and who doesn't want to walk up to a hive and fist it to death anyways?). Should make for some interesting combat choices too, as going into melee range of a hive can make you very vulnerable to alien attacks.
As a side note, I have similar thoughts about the flamethrower. Since it makes for awful player vs. player combat (a no aim required weapon that drains energy is just obnoxious); why not gear it towards structure damage instead? It already kind of is, but I would suggest making it even more so, and somehow making it clear to the players that this is an anti-structure weapon. Give it more structure damage and less player damage, and perhaps some anti-structure side-effect; like inhibiting structure abilities like hive heal, shade cloak, and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd agree with both of those. I don't know if fist exo necessarily has to be structure damage as a bonus, but it has to have some clear role where you would actually choose it as the preferred option, as opposed to just being weaker than the dual exo in every situation. I think it would be equally viable if the fist exo were the preferred anti-lifeform solution, have it do like 300 damage a punch or something.
Comments
not this attitude... people said the same thing for Diablo 3... lol
lololololol "They patching it! quit crying and wait!" 3 months later still no fix to spammers, to spammers that spam add friends, PVP, balance issues, lag issues, itemization issues and content promised for release and never delivered..
NO PATIENCE!! I had patience waiting YEARS for beta to end, now it is over and "officially" released you are going to tell me I STILL need to be patient? @#$% that :P
Aliens: "Yay, their comm can drop them 75 res dual exos now!"
I'm guessing the inability to drop exos is because they ran out of buttons for the droppable equipment :-P. It'll probably be solved sometime.
Aliens: "Yay, their comm can drop them 75 res dual exos now!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This
Trust me kid, dropping dual exos will be a waste of res, jetpacks are the most cost effective unit for marines, not exosuits.
lololololol "They patching it! quit crying and wait!" 3 months later still no fix to spammers, to spammers that spam add friends, PVP, balance issues, lag issues, itemization issues and content promised for release and never delivered..
NO PATIENCE!! I had patience waiting YEARS for beta to end, now it is over and "officially" released you are going to tell me I STILL need to be patient? @#$% that :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, you bought an indie game! Go soak your head and stop being an ass!
Trust me kid, dropping dual exos will be a waste of res, jetpacks are the most cost effective unit for marines, not exosuits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not this, 'son'. Define efficient. Where is your firepower? What do you do when there are two onos playing back and forth at two different tech points? Do you send a single JP SG marine after each? What good is that? Do you send three after one? Your other tech point gets rolled. Just like you can't litter all your item slots with cheap stuff in DOTA or can't win a 200 v 200 battle with nothing but zerglings in SC, you can't just buy jetpacks for all your marines to play George Jetson and call it a day. Sometimes dual exo over jetpack is a valid choice.
Besides even if dual exos are not the most efficient use of resources, they sure as hell beat ###### exos or sentry spam which is what many pub commanders tend to spend excess tres on.
Trust me kid, dropping dual exos will be a waste of res, jetpacks are the most cost effective unit for marines, not exosuits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not this, 'son'. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes 'this'. He's very much right on the money. Right now EXOs are a waste of res against any competent alien team, end of story. Do I really need to start listing off all the reasons/flaws the EXO has? Don't get me started on how easy it is for me to solo a dual-mini EXO as a skulk. (I can occasionally solo two if I catch them without a marine around.)
Honestly, they are so easy to kill unless you're on a 20 player server and there are 5 of them with 4 jetpack/shottie welders covering them. With one or two EXOs, even if they have a welder or two, you send in a couple Onos, one stomps and the other kills the first EXO. (if the welders have jetpacks they will be flying around and not welding, same difference) Once the first EXO is down, second Onos moves up to take over, (and takes the fire from the remaining EXO) and while the second Onos kills the second EXO, the wounded Onos can stomp to prevent welding. Should one (or even both) Onos die after killing the EXOs, who cares? The khamm can drop another Onos egg, while the marines who had the EXO will never have enough p.res to buy another - and it dual-minis can't be dropped. Even without Onos, lerk and gorge with bile can make life hell for them, and the lerk can easily kill off the welders with spores. Rinse and repeat with skulk kills.
Compared to an Onos, the EXO is a complete waste of res right now against competent alien teams. It's that simple. They're fun to buy if you have the game in the bag, but otherwise there are better things to spend p.res on.
<i>or 10 ARCs</i> @_@
Let me do that for you. Compared to an onos, dual minigun exos are slow, fragile, have zero self-sufficiency, have lower sustained damage, take more time and tres to field, don't regenerate, can't cc, can't be dropped by comms, and most importantly they can't flee fights that go wrong. They have higher burst damage and can trample eggs, yay! However they can't build, can't be nanoed, can't be beaconed and can't use PGs, oh and by the way they can be soloed by a bloody skulk, good luck doing the same with a marine against an onos. I might have missed some, the list is long.
In short yes dual exos are utter crap and single exos are their inbred offsprings. A lone onos is a threat in its own right, a solo exo is a liability. And despite all this I still maintain that a dual exo is a valid choice, or the lesser of the two evils if you will.
Consider that scenario I described in my previous post: Two onos threatening two different tech points, and say it's a 8v8. A solo jetpack marine is of course worthless against an onos, it can't even carry enough ammo to kill it. If you split your forces and send three after one onos then the remaining 4 marines have to handle another onos and 5 skulks at the very least. In other words they will lose. If you keep your forces together then the moment you try to move out on one front you will immediately get backstabbed by the other onos. However you can place a dual minigun exo at one tech point - preferably far from the entrance with an armory block - and thus have a single marine player keep one onos player in check. This lets you move out on the other front with another exo and the rest of your marines.
Although it is not perfect because sooner rather than later that onos will abuse its mobility to find another weak spot and the exo still has its numerous weaknesses, it is better than sitting in base playing tag with onoses and letting the aliens slowly take over the map.
This is the reason why I think marines are playing against a timer: They don't have a proper response to the onos. Exos lack mobility, jetpacks lack firepower.
Trust me kid, dropping dual exos will be a waste of res, jetpacks are the most cost effective unit for marines, not exosuits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
JPs are not always 100% cost effective if your late game FPS is somewhere in the range of 10 to 20. Much easier to rack up kills and maneuver an exo when the game goes into bullet time chug-chug mode.
From someone who actually goes marine comm quite often, I say very much so not this ^.
I see a lot of marine comms living in the past, thinking its still release day patch, back when jetpacks actually did anything. Back when whips killed more aliens than marines, and crags were defensive in the way that they blocked bullets, but did precious little else.
Now, if you put down 2 crags and a whip, the area is effectively jetpack proof. With the massive buffs to alien structures, there simply isn't anything something as mobile as a jetpacker can do. Without their ninja strike effectiveness, jetpacks have absolutley no utility whatsoever, and I view them as a complete waste of resources. Even jetpack welder marines spend to much time flying around trying to avoid death, rather than just standing their and welding.
Exos on the other hand. Well, do they have incredible alien killing abilities? Not really. Are they impervious to harm and impossible to kill? No. What can they do? They kill hives like nobodies business. Even a hive with 4 crags around it can be taken down by a single dual minigun exo (which is more than can be said for +-4 light marines).
Marine games now revolve entirely around the ability to kill a hive within 10-15 seconds after first assaulting it, and a jetpack ain't gonna help with that.
I had a situation in game when none of my marines had enough P.Res to get double exo when I researched it and our second techpoint was getting pushed by a supported early onos...I had 75 res and dropping a double exo would turn the tides of battle,but I had to buy 50 res exo and it did not have enough firepower to take point back,so after my team got enough resources to get duals,second techpoint was lost.
Now it's 2012, you have STEAM to do it for you.
The hard part used to be having to download a patch, now it's *waiting for the next one anxiously* ... I'd take it as a good sign people want to see the game continue to evolve.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In short yes dual exos are utter crap and single exos are their inbred offsprings. A lone onos is a threat in its own right, a solo exo is a liability. And despite all this I still maintain that a dual exo is a valid choice, or the lesser of the two evils if you will.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't disagree wit you here. Hey, if this is the only tool the marines have, then even if it is massively gimped it's still a tool. I buy them on occasion when there is nothing else to spend res on.
I'm sure the day will come when they get balanced out, until they they are what they are.
In a situation like that dual or single exo is great to cover your bases from a last minute skulk rush with MACs in the room, while the rest of the team pushes up etc. I have seen this method used on a few occasions and if the Marine Comm is paying attention then a base skulk rush wouldn't work with an good Exo there.
I feel Jetpack marines are probably the fastest way to destroy a hive if properly coordinated and outfitted, one flamethrower marine and 3 others using either the Machine gun or Shotgun is crazy fast.
You forgot that bile bomb is a pretty hard counter to them, where as there is currently no hard counter to onos of any real description.
On the other hand, a rambonos can still be killed quickly with jetpackers who chase him. It's probably a bit more difficult because the onos moves 2x (or even more?) faster than an exo I think, especially with celerity. Really, it's the mobility of the oni which makes them that dangerous, not the HP or damage they deal. Then again, they need that mobility to contend with jetpacks and to survive. Asymmetry, yay.
On the other hand, a rambonos can still be killed quickly with jetpackers who chase him. It's probably a bit more difficult because the onos moves 2x (or even more?) faster than an exo I think, especially with celerity. Really, it's the mobility of the oni which makes them that dangerous, not the HP or damage they deal. Then again, they need that mobility to contend with jetpacks and to survive. Asymmetry, yay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I count jetpacks as a soft counter, because you need like 4 of them to chase down 1 onos in order for them to be a game changer. Granted bile gorges can be killed, but in most hive rooms there's some position where gorges can just be absolutely evil and SMASH exos to bits. Some doorways are basically unbreachable.
As others have mentioned, Exos are primarily for support on the front lines, but is often abused as a front line <i>pusher</i>. This usually spells doom for exos unless they have a crap-ton of support from MACs and welders.
In my opinion, Exos and Jetpack marines have their roles unintentionally swapped in most marine mindsets. If jetpacks were considered the front line pushers and the exos were front line holders, I'd imagine that marine pushes would fare better.
I mean, right now you are lucky to get one marine with a flamethrower/GL. I mostly see LMGers and Shotgunners, and those aren't the best for Hive clearing. If one or two more people in any given push also had a flamethrower or GL, most of the alien buildings would die rather quickly. I think the lack of flamethrowers/GLs can be mostly blamed on the shotgun costing so damn much. If you die twice with the SG, that's pretty much 40 pres down the drain, cause every time it seems that some guy picks up your SG and dies in some unknown corner somewhere. That, and Comms sitting on 70-120 Tres and not dropping <i>any</i> weapons.
An exo scales with the game and an onos less so; he only really needs carapice or celerity to ensure he can't be chased or mobbed and he's pretty much at 90% effectiveness. You might have full armour, but a dual exos is still is nowhere as effective as an onos and takes far longer to hit the field what with the necessity to research and build all the structures necessary to get it out in the first place (thank god onos was moved to second hive, amirite).
onos = 40 tres for second hive
exos = 15 for cc, 40 for proto, 30 for exo research and more tres and time for dual guns (then 20 for armslab, 15, 25 and 35 for respective armour levels). Then you still need a welder bum buddy to ensure you don't get ganked by a skulk which cost 0 pres for the alien player.
Having said that, onos is more useful than duel exo. But looking at it from a 'resources spent to get the tech' perspective, both are pretty similar in terms of cost. Although on the marine side you forgot to add in armory and advanced armory.
On topic of OP, I do think duel exos should be droppable on 3 tech points. Exosuits aren't all that good anyway. The non-terrible version should at least be droppable by the comm.
Not to say that this does not need to be fixed anyway! Why waste 50res on Exo drop if you could have a Dual Exo for 75. IF you drop an Exo, Dual is surely the better use for tres.
Not to say that this does not need to be fixed anyway! Why waste 50res on Exo drop if you could have a Dual Exo for 75. IF you drop an Exo, Dual is surely the better use for tres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, I think Fist exo's should be taken out of the game. They're not a real choice right now. There're basically a waste of a player spot because they're not deadly enough for aliens to have to be afraid of them, and they're not mobile enough to do anything useful on the map.
I think a better solution would be to make the fist exo more powerful against structures, and the dual exo less powerful against structures. That way you actually have a reason to pick the cheaper option sometimes (and who doesn't want to walk up to a hive and fist it to death anyways?). Should make for some interesting combat choices too, as going into melee range of a hive can make you very vulnerable to alien attacks.
As a side note, I have similar thoughts about the flamethrower. Since it makes for awful player vs. player combat (a no aim required weapon that drains energy is just obnoxious); why not gear it towards structure damage instead? It already kind of is, but I would suggest making it even more so, and somehow making it clear to the players that this is an anti-structure weapon. Give it more structure damage and less player damage, and perhaps some anti-structure side-effect; like inhibiting structure abilities like hive heal, shade cloak, and so on.
Apologetics don't make a particularly strong arguement.
Those things aren't necassery. You don't need a crag/shift/shade hive to get an onos and you only need a crag hive or shift hive in order to get a spur or shell for one of the 2 major onos upgrades before the onos is performing <i>close</i> to full strength. Exos don't scale the same way and I wasn't comparing them at full strength i was comparing their strength throughout the game.
As long as you have 1 hive that might be upgraded the onos is performing close to it's full strength while the exos is performing less than a marine due to it's lack of self sufficiency and general low defences; plus the onos doesn't need a gorge to stay alive, it's quite happy running back and forth between a hive. Exos can't do that.
I also havn't noticed that extractors are particularly easier to hold than a harvester. I've noticed that extractor go down much quicker and to fewer players and are much harder to get back up than harvesters which incidently require zero player cooperation to setup so long as the respective flank is being pressured. I just don't see the connection that alien res is worth more than marine res when currently aliens win 60% of the time and can spam 75 tres onos eggs.
As a side note, I have similar thoughts about the flamethrower. Since it makes for awful player vs. player combat (a no aim required weapon that drains energy is just obnoxious); why not gear it towards structure damage instead? It already kind of is, but I would suggest making it even more so, and somehow making it clear to the players that this is an anti-structure weapon. Give it more structure damage and less player damage, and perhaps some anti-structure side-effect; like inhibiting structure abilities like hive heal, shade cloak, and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd agree with both of those. I don't know if fist exo necessarily has to be structure damage as a bonus, but it has to have some clear role where you would actually choose it as the preferred option, as opposed to just being weaker than the dual exo in every situation. I think it would be equally viable if the fist exo were the preferred anti-lifeform solution, have it do like 300 damage a punch or something.