New Model for Infestation/Powernodes
bERt0r
Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
I recently thought about a simple addition to the whole cysts vs powernode system in order to make it less bland. Nowadays, the delay on building cysts does not really pose any limitations on commanders rendering the interesting idea of cutting off cyst chains almost invalid - they are too easy to repair.
My Idea:
The number of working powernodes determines the radius in which cysts spawn infestation. In return, tie building cysts to hives and give them a longer delay (maybe 20 s). They could also become more expensive, since they become more powerful. So at 3 hives, one could build 3 cysts at the same time. At the beginning of the round, the radius would be very high, possibly letting the khammander drop a cyst near the next res nozzle. However this cyst may lose its connection when the marines start building some powernodes.
Effects:
-The task of placing cysts would become less dull. The khamander has to consider if he wants to be safe and place them with minimal distance or he wants to expand aggresivly.
-In marine turtling situations, when the aliens own the whole map except for marine start, the cyst radius would increase to the point that infestation would spread inside marine start from cysts they cannot shoot from inside their base. This would finish these stalements in an epic way: The infestation slowly creeps towards the base. Then the khamander uses his abilities directly in marine start e.g. bonewall to finish the game. The marines would also become unable to build armory walls since there is infestation in their base.
-Severing cyst chains becomes less of a "Lets hope the khammander doesnt notice" and more of a "I am harrassing the supplylines and doing damage" thing. Although this becomes only possible if enough powernodes are running. So rambo marines killing cysts wont be much help if the aliens are dominating the map.
-Gives the marines an asymmetrical counterpart to rt/powernode harrass.
My Idea:
The number of working powernodes determines the radius in which cysts spawn infestation. In return, tie building cysts to hives and give them a longer delay (maybe 20 s). They could also become more expensive, since they become more powerful. So at 3 hives, one could build 3 cysts at the same time. At the beginning of the round, the radius would be very high, possibly letting the khammander drop a cyst near the next res nozzle. However this cyst may lose its connection when the marines start building some powernodes.
Effects:
-The task of placing cysts would become less dull. The khamander has to consider if he wants to be safe and place them with minimal distance or he wants to expand aggresivly.
-In marine turtling situations, when the aliens own the whole map except for marine start, the cyst radius would increase to the point that infestation would spread inside marine start from cysts they cannot shoot from inside their base. This would finish these stalements in an epic way: The infestation slowly creeps towards the base. Then the khamander uses his abilities directly in marine start e.g. bonewall to finish the game. The marines would also become unable to build armory walls since there is infestation in their base.
-Severing cyst chains becomes less of a "Lets hope the khammander doesnt notice" and more of a "I am harrassing the supplylines and doing damage" thing. Although this becomes only possible if enough powernodes are running. So rambo marines killing cysts wont be much help if the aliens are dominating the map.
-Gives the marines an asymmetrical counterpart to rt/powernode harrass.
Comments
My Idea:
The number of working powernodes determines the radius in which cysts spawn infestation. In return, tie building cysts to hives and give them a longer delay (maybe 20 s). They could also become more expensive, since they become more powerful. So at 3 hives, one could build 3 cysts at the same time. At the beginning of the round, the radius would be very high, possibly letting the khammander drop a cyst near the next res nozzle. However this cyst may lose its connection when the marines start building some powernodes.
Effects:
-The task of placing cysts would become less dull. The khamander has to consider if he wants to be safe and place them with minimal distance or he wants to expand aggresivly.
-In marine turtling situations, when the aliens own the whole map except for marine start, the cyst radius would increase to the point that infestation would spread inside marine start from cysts they cannot shoot from inside their base. This would finish these stalements in an epic way: The infestation slowly creeps towards the base. Then the khamander uses his abilities directly in marine start e.g. bonewall to finish the game. The marines would also become unable to build armory walls since there is infestation in their base.
-Severing cyst chains becomes less of a "Lets hope the khammander doesnt notice" and more of a "I am harrassing the supplylines and doing damage" thing. Although this becomes only possible if enough powernodes are running. So rambo marines killing cysts wont be much help if the aliens are dominating the map.
-Gives the marines an asymmetrical counterpart to rt/powernode harrass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To prevent you from continuing to try and hijack other threads I'll respond directly to your post.
Your premise is incorrect from the start. Marines can already deny area's to cysts, the cooldown has nothing to do with it. Cysts take time to mature, and after the mature cysts are cleared the 'new' cysts the alien commander plops down have virtually no health. That means that a marine can consistantly cut them down with merely a swing or two from his knife, while you waste T.Res spamming the area with more and more low-health cysts. God forbid he have a flamethrower, a turret battery, or a welder because if he has any of those things you have no chance to area deny using cysts.
Since your premise is simply incorrect, the rest falls down on top of it. It means your adding yet another needlessly complex system with no explaination into the game. It would additionally require continuously placing cysts over the same area the entire game, meaning you would spam them, which is the exact same situation we have now. If you add a global cool down that just makes it even worse than the current build, and gives the marines a simply <i>tremendous</i> advantage when playing at anything above the n00b pub game level, especially when using the aforementioned area-denial tools.
Last thing, the simple fragility of cysts and the fact you can 'sever' a resource chain killing anything 'downstream' is already a gigantic achilles heel. Why you want to nerf the entire alien resource system into the dirt with an iron boot is beyond me, but that's what this would do without numerous other 'balance' patches and reworking half the game to adjust for your 'simple' fix to a problem that doesn't exist.
Cysts cost money while power nodes don't, its currently a much needed res sink but its a bad idea for this asymmetry in costs of control.
Marines can take space quick the first time, but repairing the nodes is slow. To mirror this, I think cysts should have no cooldown to place, but a stacking cooldown if destroyed. Lost a cyst? You must wait 3 seconds. Lost 10 all of a sudden because marines are clearing a room? Cannot drop a cyst for 30 seconds.
It makes it far less tedious for both sides, and allows marines to really stab at an alien commander.
On power nodes, I would really like to see the return of remote power packs. I know they've been repurposed as sentry batteries, but I loved the ability to drop ninja phase gates and defy dropped power by having a remote on an obs or phase gate.
That's actually a pretty good point, and would definitely add something to the game. It would be yet another advanced strategy for a team with an abundance of advanced strategies though, so at the end of the day I'm not sure it would really matter one way or the other.
I do know that making cysts an even bigger resource sink than they already are is a horrible idea. Any tweaks to a structure that is vitally necessary while still being horribly fragile is a dangerous game and has immense potential to wildly swing balance one way or the other. Essentially doubling the cost to expand the alien infestation is, at heart, a bad idea for a team that is already badly balanced. Instead of massively inflating current costs for essentially worthless structures I'd like better alien structures that have a definite use that go along with inflated costs.
All this does is add a gimmick to the current infestation model, nothing more and nothing less. At the end of the day it would result in the same cyst spam we see right now with the exact same use and counters as the current game. It solves nothing while adding numerous other problems.
Regarding my premise, sorry but you are wrong. Marines can deny areas by fortifying them, yes. What I was talking about, in case you missed, is doing any meaningful damage by killing cysts. The aliens can attack powernodes to take out a whole base. But more importatly, a single skulk can harrass a powernode, as in do significant damage if no marine takes care of him - keep the marines on their toes.
It would not "require continuously placing cysts over the same area the entire game" why would you think that? If the commander decided to place his cysts as far away from each other as possible - as in fast expanding - that would be a tradeoff, a strategic decision. If he expands fast and places few cysts, his cyst chains could get cut off if the marines are aggressive and kill the cysts or take a lot of powernodes. In turn it would be possible to get 3 harvesters with 3 cysts at the one minute mark (given a 20 second cooldown that is obviously not set in stone).
Another benefit would be, that smart commanders could hide cysts in certain spots on the map:
Bigger radius -> possibility to hide cysts in corners; Cysts are more valuable -> you'd want to hide them
Gorges placing cysts for pres in vents would also fit right in here.
I think you didn't read your own post, or at least think it through. If the size of the effective infestation shrinks throughout the game as the Marines build more power nodes you would need to redrop cysts to keep your connections going. Therefore you would be dropping Cysts the whole game over area's that you had already dropped them. Meaning you would 'spam' them and spend even more time than you already do managing cysts with your new cool down of <i>twenty seconds</i>.
Every commander worth their salt would simply drop cysts at a spacing that would keep the connection going the whole game, resulting in <i>exactly the same gameplay as right now</i>. Giving the Alien commander one more way to shoot themselves in the foot doesn't equal more strategy. This add's about the same level of 'strategy' as the Aliens being resource locked or egg locked, which is something the commander already can't do anything about once it's happened.
The prospect of losing the entire map because the Marines build one more powernode is stupid.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nowadays, the delay on building cysts does not really pose any limitations on commanders rendering the interesting idea of cutting off cyst chains almost invalid - they are too easy to repair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was your premise. It is false. You are <i>assuming</i> the Marines are going to expand slowly or not at all to make your 'strategic choice' even slightly valid. In reality, since Marines are <i>quite definitely</i> going to expand their control to two hives if they are even slightly intelligent you would need to drop cysts a distance apart to account for the mid-game and 'fast expansion' would in no way counter that since your 'fast expand' would be instantly cut the second the Marines build even one more power node. On top of that, this isn't even counting the fact that <i>every</i> resource Node has a corresponding power node. You would be looking at a <i>minimum</i> of four Power Nodes 2-3 minutes into the game which means a 'fast expand' as you describe it would be moot within two minutes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I was talking about, in case you missed, is doing any meaningful damage by killing cysts. The aliens can attack powernodes to take out a whole base. But more importatly, a single skulk can harrass a powernode, as in do significant damage if no marine takes care of him - keep the marines on their toes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why cutting the Cyst chain isn't a useful strategy most of the time is because it isn't necessary for anything except resource nodes. There isn't any structure worth building as an Alien commander any more, so why cut a cyst chain when you can simply kill the resource node attached to it? In various other scenarios, the cysts die in one hit from GL's and Flamethrowers which both have a massive AoE and do tremendous structural damage. If the Marines are too stupid to use their advanced weapons why exactly should they win again?
There are two ways to kill Cysts. The moron way, where you kill every cyst on the way to where you're going (I.E. the path more Marines seem to take); and the smart way. The smart way is to cut the chain at strategic junctures, and is only really valid for one solo Marine up until the end of the mid-game. Anything past that, such as when Aliens have three hives, means that there are so many entry paths that it takes too much time to sever them with one solo Marine and is the only situation where you're even remotely correct about how hard it is to clear cysts. However, one Marine <i>should not</i> be able to effectively cut cyst chains against aliens that have three hives without an advanced weapon. That situation is the end-game, and if the Aliens manage to lose off three hives it shouldn't be because a Marine ninja'ed the cyst chain. It's also when Flamethrowers have a chance to shine, and is quite probably the reason why they're in the game in the first place.
Just because you want one vanilla marine to be able to clear out half a maps cysts without even a single upgraded weapon doesn't mean it's a good idea.
TL;DR
Cyst chains are far easier to sever than a power node. You claiming that it is somehow difficult or impossible to sever a cyst resource chain is not only wrong, but it is <i>incredibly</i> wrong. There are guns the Marines have access to that make it even easier, in fact there are guns specifically designed to do so. The fact that Marines usually don't even use these guns should tell you how 'vital' it is to use them to cut cysts. In essence, your 'simple change' would result in the whole game needing to be rebalanced, down to even the guns Marines have available to them.
Yes you would need to drop cysts to fill gaps and you would need to spend more time managing cysts. Why is this a bad thing again? The alien commander has far less work than the marine commander in the first place. He could use some more work.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every commander worth their salt would simply drop cysts at a spacing that would keep the connection going the whole game, resulting in exactly the same gameplay as right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly disagree because not realising potential to save resources is not the mark of a good commander. I don't think you grasp the concept properly. The relation between powernodes and radius does not have to be linear:
<img src="http://i46.tinypic.com/34y5vlj.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
It is also not nessesary to immidiatly reduce the radius once a powernode is built. Like infestation is growing/receding slowly this can be smoothed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was your premise. It is false. You are assuming the Marines are going to expand slowly or not at all to make your 'strategic choice' even slightly valid. In reality, since Marines are quite definitely going to expand their control to two hives if they are even slightly intelligent you would need to drop cysts a distance apart to account for the mid-game and 'fast expansion' would in no way counter that since your 'fast expand' would be instantly cut the second the Marines build even one more power node. On top of that, this isn't even counting the fact that every resource Node has a corresponding power node. You would be looking at a minimum of four Power Nodes 2-3 minutes into the game which means a 'fast expand' as you describe it would be moot within two minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you to tell me what I am assuming. What you are saying was precisly my intention: The aliens would be able to get up extractors 2 minutes earlier and build then fill the cyst gaps when the marines expand. Terribly complicated, I know. Its called strategy...
Finally, your "smart way of killing cysts" is precisly what I described in my "premise". It doesnt work. As soon as your team of marines moves to the next junction, the alien comm can replace the killed cyst.
Obviously, flamethrowers kill cysts but if you think that's the only thing they are good for you are incredibly wrong.
TL/DR: You only play alien commander and since they have avg winrates of 60% you fear about a balance fix. Especially anything the relates to more work for the khammander aggravates you.
'More work' through additions of cool downs on the most vital part of the Aliens resource chain? I find it difficult to believe that you don't see the inherent dangers here. Maybe you're forgetting maturation times on all alien structures and the lack of structures that do anything for aliens or something, I don't know. You're arguing late game mechanics (several cyst chains into a single room) around a single marine, and that alone is so stupid it almost doesn't merit response.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I strongly disagree because not realising potential to save resources is not the mark of a good commander. I don't think you grasp the concept properly. The relation between powernodes and radius does not have to be linear:
<img src="http://i46.tinypic.com/34y5vlj.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
It is also not nessesary to immidiatly reduce the radius once a powernode is built. Like infestation is growing/receding slowly this can be smoothed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically, the more the aliens win the faster they can do everything at the expense of losing everything if they start losing? On top of that, the more they start losing the higher their costs go for everything. These costs would be sharp jumps in T.Res expenditure for every one power node added to the map, which essentially means every power node costs the Aliens team T.Res up until they are locked in one hive or have cysts at the minimum distance from one another on the map. This also discounts the fact that the Aliens can, in fact, <i>immediately</i> drop a second hive at the start of a game which is the <i>real</i> source of the aliens early to mid-game 'rapid' expansion.
You seem to think rapid alien expansion is a problem, but with everything the aliens can build being <i>super weak</i> and taking forever to mature I think you're missing the bigger picture. You're also looking backwards at a match, from the end to the beginning. If you look at a round from the beginning to the end your system is game breaking. It starts with the Aliens having an uncertain distance between cysts, and punishing them heavily for every inch of ground the Marines take. Looking backwards makes your system logical if there was no early game or mid-game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you to tell me what I am assuming. What you are saying was precisly my intention: The aliens would be able to get up extractors 2 minutes earlier and build then fill the cyst gaps when the marines expand. Terribly complicated, I know. Its called strategy...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err...this doesn't let you put up extractors any faster. At best perhaps a few seconds of saved time. This would immediately be followed by losing those two resource nodes when the Marines build their two extractors and corresponding power nodes and your cyst isn't off cool down. It isn't risky, it's virtually guaranteed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Finally, your "smart way of killing cysts" is precisly what I described in my "premise". It doesnt work. As soon as your team of marines moves to the next junction, the alien comm can replace the killed cyst.
Obviously, flamethrowers kill cysts but if you think that's the only thing they are good for you are incredibly wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what direction do these magic 'new cysts' grow from? A second hive with an alternate approach, from the same hive with an alternate approach, or from the same direction the Marines are advancing?
Option A) You should be securing a second base for your team, or attacking an occupied or unoccupied hive to secure one. If you're by yourself at this point, you have already lost through generalized team fail.
Option B) You will cut both connections through advancing to the second hive. You do plan on doing that eventually, and not fighting cysts all day, right?
Option C) You will cut the connection at the source.
On top of that you're assuming the Marines just clear it and move on. In any situation where it matters they clear it, build, secure, and then move on. Building yet another power node in the process. Do you see the problem now? This doesn't even take into account the possibility of putting up a turret battery that will stop cyst expansion cold. Or a Flamethrower that stops the cysts cold. Or <i>one marine with a knife or welder</i> stopping it cold. It demands attention from the Aliens team if you do this, and if no one stops you there's a real chance you can take out half a map by yourself while fully occupying the alien commander. During the late game you need a coordinated push no matter what, and if you kill the hive there will be no cyst issue in all the spaces you just cleared.
How much T.Res is an acceptable aliens loss when trying to area deny with cysts, anyway? It's not like it's free even with a short cool down. You can waste 1 T.Res per second as alien commander doing this in one area, that add's up fast.
Lastly, cysts don't do anything by themselves. You can literally waltz in and knife a resource tower and be 100x more effective than all the idiot Marines I see that chop every cyst on their way to anywhere. Cysts don't really matter by themselves, it's the base-line for building anything else and your time would be better spent killing something that <i>does</i> matter like a harvester or a hive. Any aliens assault that uses Cysts costs <i>a massive amount</i> of T.Res, and the shift+whip rush will eat up enough resources to have far fewer Alien advanced life forms on the field. It's about the equivalent of a ARC train in costs while being far less effective and way harder to set up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TL/DR: You only play alien commander and since they have avg winrates of 60% you fear about a balance fix. Especially anything the relates to more work for the khammander aggravates you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been arguing for Marines changes that lower the skill floor required to be effective, personally. The last few patches have all nerfed the Aliens team heavily, yet somehow Marines still lose the same amount. What does that tell you?
If the aliens drop a fast 2nd hive, they would now be able to build cysts twice as fast.
I think building cysts is a pain in the ass and a very dull task. The cooldown the cysts have now serves no purpose other than annoying the commander while not allowing him really do something else while he waits for building the next cyst.
You dont need a 2nd approach to rebuild the cysts in your scenario. Since the marines proceed towards your hive, you will always have a connected chain of cysts up to the cyst that was killed. Now if the marines move around one corner, closer to the hive, you can replace the cyst they killed without any problems. If the marines wanted to build there, they would kill all the cysts anyway.
Once the marines domitate the map and the aliens are down to one hive, the game should be over anyway. Tons of people are crying over games not ending and marines egglocking aliens on one hive. Don't see the problem here. On the other hand, if the aliens dominate the map, they could now press their advantage. See the marines freak out as the infestation crawls inside their last base while they cant find the cyst.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lastly, cysts don't do anything by themselves. You can literally waltz in and knife a resource tower and be 100x more effective than all the idiot Marines I see that chop every cyst on their way to anywhere. Cysts don't really matter by themselves, it's the base-line for building anything else and your time would be better spent killing something that does matter like a harvester or a hive. Any aliens assault that uses Cysts costs a massive amount of T.Res, and the shift+whip rush will eat up enough resources to have far fewer Alien advanced life forms on the field. It's about the equivalent of a ARC train in costs while being far less effective and way harder to set up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. In the end we seem to agree on the issue. All I am trying is making cyst a little more useful. This comes with raising the skill ceiling for the alien comm (placing cysts wisely: hidden and well spread out). Alien assaults that use cysts are so expensive because you have to slowly creep forward while the marines can shoot your cysts. This also seems happens only if aliens are dominating already. It would become much easier and cheaper to do that if you only had to place one cyst behind 2 corners, let the infestation creep forward and then send your whips.
Here a pic for you to illustrate it:
<img src="http://i48.tinypic.com/16iurtf.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Would mean Aliens need to FULLY clear out a room before being able to expand in to it quickly - same as how Marines need to clear EVERY Cyst before placing structures.