Speeding up end-game base destruction
SentrySteve
.txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
.txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">For when the game was decided 10 minutes ago</div>I've played a handful of games where the aliens have clearly won and are attempting to destroy the last (usually the starting) marine tech point. The marines are able to block entrances to their base with buildings, while welding, beaconing, and fighting back, thereby extending the end-game. I've seen one that went on for an extra 15 minutes or so. In organized play this scenario doesn't really exist. Even in smaller public servers (6v6 to 8v8) this doesn't really exist. I've only noticed this on larger (12v12 for example) public servers. Because the (large) marine team is concentrated in one room, the obvious answer of "use umbra, bile bomb, onos, heal spray" is a <i>slow</i> answer because at any given time you likely only have a mid-sized force attacking. At best, I found we only really had 8 players attacking.
After about 10 minutes of me attacking a blocking robotics factory while getting shot from 6 different level 3 weapon marines I honestly thought to myself: "Could anyone actually be enjoying this?"
So I wanted to make this thread. I've found a few players enter the readyroom after this kind of scenario and describe that game as epic while some go on about how it took forever. We all play games for fun and we all have different definitions of fun. This wasn't fun for me, but I understand it could be for others.
My suggestion to speed up the endgame is this; For every tech point after 3 hives for aliens and 2 command stations for marines, the commander and all players earn a significant decrease in lifeform cost. For example, if the aliens own 4 hives, Onos would cost 40 res. If they own 5 hives, Onos would cost 20 res. Although I doubt the marines ever actually have this problem, the same kind of discounts and logic can be applied to them.
The reason I like this suggestion is because it doesn't negatively affect competitive play at all (I'd assume most teams would GG when they know they've lost, which would always be before Hive 4), doesn't negatively affect any other aspect of balance in the game leading up to this end-game scenario, and still allows for some end-game siege to occur for the players who find enjoyment in it. With these kinds of discounts, aliens would be able to throw Onos after Onos at the marines shortening the end-game significantly.
What are your thoughts on this?
After about 10 minutes of me attacking a blocking robotics factory while getting shot from 6 different level 3 weapon marines I honestly thought to myself: "Could anyone actually be enjoying this?"
So I wanted to make this thread. I've found a few players enter the readyroom after this kind of scenario and describe that game as epic while some go on about how it took forever. We all play games for fun and we all have different definitions of fun. This wasn't fun for me, but I understand it could be for others.
My suggestion to speed up the endgame is this; For every tech point after 3 hives for aliens and 2 command stations for marines, the commander and all players earn a significant decrease in lifeform cost. For example, if the aliens own 4 hives, Onos would cost 40 res. If they own 5 hives, Onos would cost 20 res. Although I doubt the marines ever actually have this problem, the same kind of discounts and logic can be applied to them.
The reason I like this suggestion is because it doesn't negatively affect competitive play at all (I'd assume most teams would GG when they know they've lost, which would always be before Hive 4), doesn't negatively affect any other aspect of balance in the game leading up to this end-game scenario, and still allows for some end-game siege to occur for the players who find enjoyment in it. With these kinds of discounts, aliens would be able to throw Onos after Onos at the marines shortening the end-game significantly.
What are your thoughts on this?
Comments
would allow aliens to finish off marines when they are turtling, and allow marines to... use something else then shotgun or LMG.
It could work by the alien commander clicking it and saying, build creep to this spot. The game then engages path finding and moves an imaginary dot forward at a certain rate. Everything within radius of this dot will have the mega infestation grow around it. Anything marine armor will get damaged by it, which means exo's and buildings and marine armor. The cyst would also take a long time to build and would be fragile.
Requires three hives and must be researched at the hive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or more viable siege strategies for aliens<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mega infestation creep.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the reasons why I didn't suggest something new is because of UWE's resources and balance issues that may arise. If decreasing the resource cost for lifeforms can achieve the same effect on end game turtling as mega infestation creep or the new hive, it would save UWE time (no new coding, models, animations) to just simply decrease the lifeform cost. Better siege capability for the aliens may unbalance other aspects of the games at certain times, while still adding more production as mentioned above.
I'm not saying any of those are bad ideas, but the amount of effort they would require makes them less viable and less likely to make it in game.
Thanks for the responses. I'm glad you three agree with the underlying message of the original post. If anyone has any criticisms feel free to share those as well.
This works with the asymmetrical nature of the game as well. Aliens have no chance of defending 1-base Hive while Marines can defend their 1-base CC, but requires to go on the offensive less they lose by timer. Aliens lose because they are horrendously out-teched while Marines can't pointlessly delay the game for several minutes.
Think about it, onos rush for last powernode and the comm errects a huge bonewall shield.
or something easier to programm posibbly like 5% armour increase for alien life forms on a grown 4th hive.
which won't be much for a skulk but for onos is quite a lot and will have the effect of making crags heal them slightly more ( as max hp is higher)
3rd cc for marines shouldn't give a buff as they don't need it agaisnt 2 hive aliens.
4th cc really 1 hive aliens arn't an issue so no need just walk in with Arcs if it's a truly spamed hive
... so what are the other 4 players in the server doing if you have full control of the map? The problem seems to be less about game balance and more about team co-ordination.
One is commander, and the other 3 are usually either waiting to spawn, in base, or elsewhere.
You are correct -- the problem is about team coordination. If it was a 12v12 and all 12 were listening, on the same page, and knew how to end the game this scenario would be much less common. In any public game, especially one with player counts as high as 24, I find coordination to be limited (at best) or significantly lacking. To be honest, the example of 8 players attacking the marine base was truly a best case scenario.
<!--quoteo(post=2036768:date=Nov 28 2012, 05:50 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 28 2012, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see no reason to add any fancy new systems - this is a job for Hive 3 abilities. They just need to be buffed. When aliens have 3 hives they are winning by definition, and if they can hold it long enough to research those abilities and start using them, they should win handily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is also an acceptable solution.
I think there's room for improvement in T3 abilities, especially Zenocide and Vortex.
I've seen Marines make long winded holdouts that the OP is talking about but I've never really had a problem with them.
If we could have one wish (based on NS2) for me it would have to be Marines could vote for extraction. They have to hold out for the next 5 minutes while a vehicle arrives to whisk them all away to safety. They would still lose the match but it would be a fun way to lose. Feel free to disregard this idea immediately.
It could work by the alien commander clicking it and saying, build creep to this spot. The game then engages path finding and moves an imaginary dot forward at a certain rate. Everything within radius of this dot will have the mega infestation grow around it. Anything marine armor will get damaged by it, which means exo's and buildings and marine armor. The cyst would also take a long time to build and would be fragile.
Requires three hives and must be researched at the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The megacyst.
LOL.
:)
+1 Add it in
Just saying, there are ways of beating this stuff people will discover short of giving some uber siege weapon.
Which honestly is a better idea than cheap lifeforms I think.
***
Also, dropping a shift near the marine base, pumping eggs and mass xenociding is not a bad idea either, presuming that massed gorge bilebomb is not the go in the player culture yet.
As a skulk it costs you zero pres and although you die, you can cause those players to drop all their tech. They'll lose any surviving jetpackers for good and unless other players pick up their weapons which can then be camped by lerk and spores, they'll lose all their 20-25 pres weapons.
We were a marine team, we were totally sorrunded, in warehouse. Aliens building on both sides. They already had onos, we had single CC.
We made arcs near the enterance to warehouse by the side of server room. Not only did we kill 4 onos, we also took ouy their forward base, we killed 2 hives also.
Eventually we did loose, because we couldn't hold our 2 newly acquired bases, because a few people were cowards and quit when we were turtling, before the push.
Not a bad idea. And fun!
What I feel is really missing in the game is an explicit voting interface that can be used by each team in these cases. I ve heard about F4 and such but I have tried it with no results. It still takes the comm to sell all the gear in order to secure the concession.
although, any kind of scaling for the Aliens is definitely a great idea, so I don't really see any issues with this idea either.
It's that marine's spawn WAY Too fast. why does nobody get this simple fact?
I've been in a couple of games recently that people were like "just end it!"
After getting the team to try a final cohesive push, the marines took down the 3 assualting onos (10v10 match) that had 1 supporting gorge and a lerk that didn't use Umbra...
From there continued out to the nearest alien front that the Khammander didn't drop whips, cleared the res/cysts and took back 2 res nodes in quick succession giving us an income. As aliens had burnt their PRes going onos and Khamm hadn't built third hive think we'd just "die" until we did a push, gave us a good 2-3 min window of opportunity.
Keeping it short. We turned an obvious "just end it!" attitude into a rebound and actually fought back and won.
---
I've done the same on the opposite side, Marines had couple of Exo's charge one of our final two hives (they had 3 tech points) and the rest of the marines went to the other hive.
The non-exo marines took down one hive, but we in turn chomped through the exo's...
We still had 3 res and just enough money to redrop our hive with a shade.
But again, long story short, we pushed back through and took out their Proto a couple of res. then their CC's.... and won the game.
They had the PRes for double exo's they just didn't buy it and as a result. They lost about 5-6 minutes later on the return assault from aliens.
Keeping it short. We turned an obvious "just end it!" attitude into a rebound and actually fought back and won.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fine, and my suggestion would still allow for this to happen. Did you read my entire suggestion?
Certain rushing strategies aside, NS2 is a RTS game based entirely on territory control. If one team can turtle up and still put up a fighting chance, while the other team properly expanded and controlled the entire map, then there's a fundamental problem somewhere.
When a team has cornered the other one into a single room the advantage, by game design, should be substantial. Right now, due to a lack of scaling after the highest possible tech has been reached, I don't believe the advantage is significant enough.
It only takes a few gorges bilebombing to crack the nut.
It only takes a few gorges bilebombing to crack the nut.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ this
With 1 RT they don't exactly get lots of res very fast... and unless the commander is fast enough on recycling... they'll loose their res fast.
With 1 RT they don't exactly get lots of res very fast... and unless the commander is fast enough on recycling... they'll loose their res fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess they should tighten up their res then.