At what point have the marines lost?
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The big question</div>I see a lot of people discussing the relative weakness or strength of third hive abilities like stomp, xenocide and vortex. Before these abilities can really be looked at though, I think it is important to determine what the third hive represents.
In NS1, a third hive was the swansong of the marine team. It essentially signaled there imminent inevitable end, except in a very small set of cases. Once the third hive went up, the aliens gained access to too many devastating abilities, all at once, for the marines to really stand a chance. It worked well in NS1, but this isn't NS1.
So does the same hold true for NS2? Is three hives meant to spell out certain doom for the marine team? Currently I certainly don't <b>think </b>it does. I mean, while there certainly are some potent abilities like Umbra and Stomp knocking around after the appearance of the third hive, I sometimes struggle to really identify the differences between 2-2 tech point games, and 2-3 tech point games. Is this a symptom of abilities like vortex and xenocide being too weak, or is it a case of "working as intended", and any suggestions for improvements to vortex or xenocide should be tempered with restraint in power?
It would be nice to hear the devs official stance on this.
<b>TL:DR Is 3 hives GG?</b>
In NS1, a third hive was the swansong of the marine team. It essentially signaled there imminent inevitable end, except in a very small set of cases. Once the third hive went up, the aliens gained access to too many devastating abilities, all at once, for the marines to really stand a chance. It worked well in NS1, but this isn't NS1.
So does the same hold true for NS2? Is three hives meant to spell out certain doom for the marine team? Currently I certainly don't <b>think </b>it does. I mean, while there certainly are some potent abilities like Umbra and Stomp knocking around after the appearance of the third hive, I sometimes struggle to really identify the differences between 2-2 tech point games, and 2-3 tech point games. Is this a symptom of abilities like vortex and xenocide being too weak, or is it a case of "working as intended", and any suggestions for improvements to vortex or xenocide should be tempered with restraint in power?
It would be nice to hear the devs official stance on this.
<b>TL:DR Is 3 hives GG?</b>
Comments
I think 3rd hive abilities can afford to be a little bit overpowered when balancing them, and they definitely need some love if for no other reason than to justify getting them. Xenocide kills the skulk (aliens have longer spawn times and no phase gates-- shifts cost a crapton of money to spam eggs with), and vortex is just a novelty right now. Umbra feels kinda weak IMO too, though it's still generally helpful to use at least.
I've allways felt xenocide to be the most useless skill there is now.
-It does barely any damage against buildings.
-Once you reach third hive and get xeno, marines should ATLEAST have armor 2 meaning they will never, ever die in 1 hit from 200 LIGHT damage.
-Having 3 hives to sport this ability means the kharaa should atleast have 75/85% of the map under control... Meaning if you actually manage to kill a marine, with a GL or shotgun, he can just pick it back up again next spawn seeing YOU are dead aswell (but a mile away when you spawn)
Apart from my rant about xeno, and back on-topic the only real gain now like someone else said already is the egged onos, As i find each of the upgrades to be efficient i'll have to say finally getting all 3 of them is not as good. it just completes the whole but that's it, i always tend to miss the last upgrades, but they're mostly borderline. since shade and shift pretty much both complement crag, as long as the commander gets crag in, you'll be allright on two base as far as evolutions go IMO.
Stomp is pretty much a must to make the final push, hoping most onoses haven't suicided themselves yet like morons. Then it's upto the commanders directing / micro skills to finish the game with the team, shifting in shades and using ink, hallucinations, shifting in whips with bombard, you name it. Barely any commander does this.. they should do it more often.
Vortex is an issue of people don't really know what it is good for, i mean they get the gist of it, they just don't know how good it applies.
Vortexing something basically means it doesn't exist, aliens need to understand what that entails. for both grenades and bullets aswell as structures and exo's.
Also vortex requires a lot more team communication to be effective.
But overall i think 3 bases for Kharaa are more or less just borderline required to have in every game.
Marines have enough with just two base, but that's a different problem entirely.
Xenocide is normal damage. I will continue to spread this as much as I can.
Until somebody tells me that the game files lied to me.
Not to say victory is impossible for Marines once the 3rd Hive is established, but there's a good chance that all you'll be doing is needlessly prolonging the game.
Until somebody tells me that the game files lied to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aww, beat me to it. It also has a fairly huge range; as far as a shade currently is. Of course, it has damage drop off the further you get from the center, but still.
I really need to get a game where we get gorgies to bile while skulks leap in using xeno to see how effective it might be...
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I'm suspecting not very... the skulks die, then the gorgies do, heh.
Until somebody tells me that the game files lied to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is irrelevant, because 200 points of normal damage also won't kill a marine at armor 2 or higher.
If you want a really interesting and exciting game, 3 hives should be balanced versus 2 CCs. If both teams tech equally fast and end up with the final tech at the same time, the game should not end because one team has an unfair advantage. It should be fair and skill depended who wins. Come on, we have already this "1 CC loses against 3 hives" and "1 hive loses against 1 CC" why do we even need more of this unfair predicted game enders? Don't you like games that are played on a equal battle field? I know, I know: This game has a RTS-part. The com needs some influx of the outcome of a game. But he has already enough. We don't need another mechanic that practical ends the game without really ending it. Those never ending, already decided games are boring enough as it is.
Now to the reality: 3 hives mean in most maps 70% map control = one team has most of the RTs. Mineshaft with 5 tech points and a double res is the only map that would make this equal endgame theoretically possible. And from my experiences it doesn'T work out to be like that. Maybe it is really difficult to balance the teams with all tech available.
<b>TL;DR: No, it should be not GG. If both teams reach the end of their tech tree in nearly the same time, skill and tactic should decide the game. Not a boring imbalance in the teams end-game-tech.</b>
Actually, 200 points or normal damage will kill a marine with A2 with the exact amount of damage necessary. 100 health + 50 armor (100 extra health) - 200 damage = dead marine. This is assuming the explosion is right on top of the marine.
EDIT: Ignore me. A2 is 70 armor, not 50. I'm even more unhappy with Xenocide, now.
If 3 hives is balanced against 2 CCs, then that means 2 hives is beaten by 2 CCs. Since 2 hive is pretty much the norm, I don't think that would be a good thing.
Or are you seriously an advocate of a boring mechanic like "who gets this amount of tech points first has won the game" ?
the signal of gg is usually when marines lose the phase gate in their 2nd com station. losing your 2nd com station means you have no jetpacks and get beseiged on the single base. this is quite similar to alien being stuck on a single base with no higher lifeforms.
In any case, I think a 3rd hive is less important than plain map control. When aliens take hold of the map and marines get pushed back to 2 cc's and 3 res nodes, it's basically over for them 9 times out of 10, 3rd hive or not.
In any case, I think a 3rd hive is less important than plain map control. When aliens take hold of the map and marines get pushed back to 2 cc's and 3 res nodes, it's basically over for them 9 times out of 10, 3rd hive or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the Marines decide to push a Hive then Aliens should push the CC to force a beacon. Marines will have to beacon or they lose their only base. A Marine team competent enough to push together to attack a single tech point AND secure Nano should be competent enough to prevent Aliens from securing 3 Hives in the first place.
I would agree that it's more or less over (barring the unexpected comeback) in a 2-2 with Marines only holding 3 res nodes. The problem is breaking through their siege line without a constant supply of Onos. The game is needlessly prolonged if you don't have enough pres Onos needed to safely break down a CC. With their notorious reputation for turtling, Marines can easily delay the game for another 10-15 minutes this way and it can be quite frustrating.
With Phase Gate rushes there is almost never a time to quit
Usually once aliens knock out a major room's power as a team it's very difficult to come back because they usually take 2 more rooms immediately afterwards
Hey, I can only tell you what I've seen. In that particular game, aliens focused on getting hives, while marines focused on getting res. The latter strategy worked the best. :p
+1
I have a tendency to think that we lost already when the build order start with:
Robotic Factory > lots of turrets
or
armory > advanced armory > GLs
Same goes as alien when the Kham get Camouflage even though we have absolutely no map control and would need to push a little bit more aggressively.
EDIT: As to when marines lose... if you lose your 2nd comm chair and don't recover it quickly. Or if the aliens can retain 2 more extractors than you, you are pretty stuffed. I'd like to see a lot more comms recycling the IPs instead of grinding out the siege for 15 minutes.
One of the things I don't like in this game is how so many want to end games before they are done. I have seen a few big comebacks. I also enjoy destroying bases when my team is winning. I even enjoy fighting a losing battle as I hopelessly try to turn a lost game around. It makes me sad when the team gives up well before the game is actually over.
I.E their actions prior to the alien winning card coming out, is what makes them win or lose.
Also to much to contrary belief, XENOCIDE IS EPIC. it is however, situational. wait until agroup of marines have bunched up and EXPLODE UPON THEIR FACES THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT!......:D
Righteous judgement of like 50 damage. Oh no, how terrifying.
200 normal damage.
It instakills armor 1 marines (as worthless as that is)
Because there are so many A1 marines when aliens have 3 hives.
I would say that marines haven't lost until they let the aliens control 75%+ of the map for at least 5 mins. Even then, I've seen marines push out from a 1 CC siege with a couple of ninjas and take out important alien stuff (granted it was a terribad alien team at that point). Basically, for marines, it's not over till it's over. There is always a chance of comeback.
Aliens... not so much...
Agree here. Turrets don't win games, they lose them. You can only win with a bad build such as this if the teams are stacked ^.^ .
<!--quoteo(post=2035842:date=Nov 27 2012, 09:50 AM:name=Ender_74)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ender_74 @ Nov 27 2012, 09:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Same goes as alien when the Kham get Camouflage even though we have absolutely no map control and would need to push a little bit more aggressively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Camo is OP on pubs. It tests both the ability of individual marines to stay in groups and cover each other, and the ability of a commander to keep sufficient radar vision throughout the game without annihilating his own economy, be it through observatories or scans. In a pub, a team will more often than not fail in one or both respects, thus making camo one of the easiest and literally cheapest ways to win (it's the cheapest upgrade as far as t.res along with silence :-) ).
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As far as the thread discussion goes: no. Aliens don't always win on 3 hives. I've won games in the beta where people have pushed back with smart JP+one/two exo play, and actually come back to win.
However, what 3 hives implies on pubs is that aliens have economic domination. 3 hives implies that they also have 7 or 8 RTs to go with those 3 hives. It's not the hives or abilities that win; it's the res (or lack of).
If you lose the economic game badly enough, it's extremely hard to recover, unless you hit hard and fast to restore the RT balance.
You have a game until you are confined to 3 RTs or less for 2-3 minutes or more. Then you don't have a game anymore (assuming non-horribleness of alien commander+team, of course). Then again, it's hard to confine competent teams to 3 RTs or less with a horrible commander, so more often than not that's when the game is essentially lost. 3 RTs or less may be ok for a little bit, but if it goes on for too long, it's usually smarter to F4 and play a game than participate as a meat ball in a meaningless steamroll.