Mineshaft still seems quite imbalanced. . .
MaximumSquid
Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
I've been going roughly 90% commanding aliens for the last few patches, but only about 50/50 on marines
The exception is Mineshaft. . .
While Comm you can pretty well instantly win if you start in repair room with the hive in cave
All the marines run down there and can setup an armory before cysts can reach
You then research mines, build a second IP, and watch fireworks as you drop health occasionally
It's such a long distance that it's pretty much always a turkey shoot
Eggs go down very fast and the few skulks still alive aren't going to be dumb enough to take on 7-8 marines sitting on a pile of health
Gorges also have zero cover once the eggs go down making the only option an emergency relocation or an all in on the command chair with whoever is still alive
<i>(ask 2 people to type 'kill' in console and watch that rush lose gas immediately or go walk to the next hive because nobody is hurt)</i>
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The other scenario is if you start in Operations
You can take double res usually in the first few minutes and then your team can make a play for crusher
Once you own Crusher it's pretty much instantly GG for aliens
Here's a recently game:
<img src="http://i5.minus.com/jc10RKQYjtI0C.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
My team killed the res, but usually there is a very lazy cyst chain in there and you can just build everything without getting noticed
Armory first, then mines, then a phase gate
I put down the obs second because aliens had cloaking
<b>You then Shove a robotics bay in the vent with a hole big enough to shoot into, but not big enough for a skulk to get past</b>
Then comes a front line MAC + sentries
Finish off with an advanced armory and prototype lab
Because 4 major points of interest are 1 room away nobody overextends and the pressure quickly becomes too much for the alien team
They usually bunker down hard in both hives and stall
You research exos and run them over with that + your MAC train that should have EMP by now
Any place you think is at risk for an All-In gets a sentry nest too or you build sentries at choke points like Cart Tunnel so you will see it coming a mile away
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The exception is Mineshaft. . .
While Comm you can pretty well instantly win if you start in repair room with the hive in cave
All the marines run down there and can setup an armory before cysts can reach
You then research mines, build a second IP, and watch fireworks as you drop health occasionally
It's such a long distance that it's pretty much always a turkey shoot
Eggs go down very fast and the few skulks still alive aren't going to be dumb enough to take on 7-8 marines sitting on a pile of health
Gorges also have zero cover once the eggs go down making the only option an emergency relocation or an all in on the command chair with whoever is still alive
<i>(ask 2 people to type 'kill' in console and watch that rush lose gas immediately or go walk to the next hive because nobody is hurt)</i>
---
The other scenario is if you start in Operations
You can take double res usually in the first few minutes and then your team can make a play for crusher
Once you own Crusher it's pretty much instantly GG for aliens
Here's a recently game:
<img src="http://i5.minus.com/jc10RKQYjtI0C.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
My team killed the res, but usually there is a very lazy cyst chain in there and you can just build everything without getting noticed
Armory first, then mines, then a phase gate
I put down the obs second because aliens had cloaking
<b>You then Shove a robotics bay in the vent with a hole big enough to shoot into, but not big enough for a skulk to get past</b>
Then comes a front line MAC + sentries
Finish off with an advanced armory and prototype lab
Because 4 major points of interest are 1 room away nobody overextends and the pressure quickly becomes too much for the alien team
They usually bunker down hard in both hives and stall
You research exos and run them over with that + your MAC train that should have EMP by now
Any place you think is at risk for an All-In gets a sentry nest too or you build sentries at choke points like Cart Tunnel so you will see it coming a mile away
-
Comments
However I rarely see a successful early rush on Cave hive. It's too open for Marines to dodge / hit skulks early on.
Add in Leap and it's harder... however throw a JP into there without lerks and it's a marine party with alien carcasses.
By can counter that with 2 or 3 whips upgraded and 3-4 crags providing a bit of heals on towers.
But that's usually mid-late game.
You don't actually go into the hive. . . you can shoot it from up the hill at that resource tower in Cavern i think it's called
It's one of the biggest runs in the game and the whole team is shooting at skulks who can't even get to a wall to try and climb up on the ceiling or walljump for more speed
Armory there makes it an instant GG where almost every other hive in the game you need to put the armory in an inconvenient spot due to the power system
I've won everytime the Marines have scouted Cave from Repair
You don't actually go into the hive. . . you can shoot it from up the hill at that resource tower in Cavern i think it's called
It's one of the biggest runs in the game and the whole team is shooting at skulks who can't even get to a wall to try and climb up on the ceiling or walljump for more speed
Armory there makes it an instant GG where almost every other hive in the game you need to put the armory in an inconvenient spot due to the power system
I've won everytime the Marines have scouted Cave from Repair<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I realise that... and would have to be a very reliable early rush with baddie aliens. Even a team with 1/2 the aliens listening can break that push, armory or not as a marine cannot heal AND shoot at an armory at the same time... they have to turn away from combat and you can chomp a marine faster than they can get healed at an armory esp if they stand still.
Throw in a lerk with spores and you can break that push too.
It all comes down to team balance and listening. If aliens listen to their comm, they can break that push... the best thing about it, if it fails it's a huge resource loss for marines with armory + often medpack spam.
Seems you guys just shifted the metagame instead :)
You can. Just takes a while to get around.
However, the "cave shootdown" requires a decent marine team who can push, and usually a crappy alien team going 1 by 1.
With the shift nerf, it's also easier to egglock.
This whole thread is a bit funny though, because the map was actually nerfed (north corridors RT removal) because a bunch of people whined about how OP aliens are on it xD .
That was right after release though; I'm guessing people will start realizing just how bad the cave location is...
That was right after release though; I'm guessing people will start realizing just how bad the cave location is...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I noticed that when I was cyst'ing to it after the recent updates as comm... I was like "eh?"
But at least it's easier to cyst into double nodes now....
Still can't cyst out the doorway under that res node though due to the level over level issue design. :(
But I like how I can drop a cyst/shade/crag/movement outside the map in the corridor between that and cavern... good radius healing everything that is in it's vertical area of influence! :)
I haven't seen a successful rush against Cave hive in all the times I've played it... only when Aliens don't listen or react to protecting the hive (IE: max 1 or 2 skulks against 3-4 marines or more).
Is it a bad start for aliens... without the n-point Rt, its pretty bad. That having been said... I can count on one hand the number of alien losses I've seen (legit ones stemming from balanced teams where the marines just out play aliens) on that map with one hand in 232.
Is it a bad start for aliens... without the n-point Rt, its pretty bad. That having been said... I can count on one hand the number of alien losses I've seen (legit ones stemming from balanced teams where the marines just out play aliens) on that map with one hand in 232.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^ THIS
On that, I've never lost an early rush to this hive, late game maybe. But never early, and that would be because aliens burnt res and noob died and didn't flank the position.
That really long passageway on the way to cave is an utter joke.
That really long passageway on the way to crusher is an utter joke.
The really long approach into Repair is an utter joke.
The really long ramp into The Gap is an utter joke.
The map is visually amazing, so no disrespect there, but honestly, what was the map creator thinking with all these incredibly long, incredibly straight corridors?
There's still the side shot from Crusher and with practice you can make that bridge jump without jetpacks
I'd like to see deposit become a starting location for a few playtests because Cave as a secondary hive is still quite good
There's still the side shot from Crusher and with practice you can make that bridge jump without jetpacks
I'd like to see deposit become a starting location for a few playtests because Cave as a secondary hive is still quite good<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that those shots are a problem because they require the marines to be move much further into alien territory and its much easier for the aliens to move around the sides/bottom of the rooms to reach these positions without exposing themselves to being fired upon from each respective position.
The problem with deposit as a starting hive is it is really close to operations, and although a good gorge can defend that doorway nearly indefinitely, its a pain in the ass to always need to assign a gorge to be doing that.
And for the love of god please fix the minimap. Right in the OP you can see that the solid wall on the right doesn't even appear on the map and is conjoined with the room next to it. Just looking at the minimap the whole thing looks cluttered and unreadable, the map should be designed to make the rooms look more distinct from eachother. This is what a minimap should look like:
<a href="http://s19.postimage.org/qfj2c8uht/ns2_map_summit.jpg" target="_blank">http://s19.postimage.org/qfj2c8uht/ns2_map_summit.jpg</a>
The most direct thing I can suggest with the hive issue is to make some piece of level geometry that just perfectly blocks their angled shot from their armory on-high. Thus, they have to get closer, maybe get just outside of covering range from their teammates, such that it's suddenly not so easy.
TF2 does the same thing on occasion; make a great Sniper spot, but then have something as small as a signpost that will perfectly block your vision from hitting a certain area, encouraging Snipers to move around.
I think it was a good idea. Was too easy to snipe it from outside the room... now it's more defensible for marines to try and keep power longer.
I'm not saying moving the node was bad, I'm saying fixing a power node vulnerability in a res room should be lower priority than fixing a tech point in a hive spawn.