<!--quoteo(post=2034804:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:33 PM:name=Afterhours)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afterhours @ Nov 25 2012, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What part of game balance is so hinged on glancing bites that this needs to be something to be for or against?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% of the early game, which pretty much defines the mid- and late-game in most of the matches. Glancing bites have a huge effect throughout the game, from start to finish (except onos I guess).
<!--quoteo(post=2034804:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:33 PM:name=Afterhours)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afterhours @ Nov 25 2012, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But when you're leaping/jumping around trying to bite a JP/SG w3/a3, as well as dodge his shots, I'll take whatever I can get. In my opinion, this is a shallow argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
JP/SG should absolutely dominate skulks. Skulks are free, while JP/SG costs 30 a pop of p-res, and a LOT of t-res and time to get to (not considering recyclable weapons). I don't see a valid argument there.
You are in the skulks world when he's toe to toe to you, just as he is in your world as hes trying to close the gap.
This argument still comes down to a measure of players skill.
It's not game breaking. A skulk must still close the gap to do this damage. It's not some sort of free gimmick. On top of that, it forces the marines to spread apart, or risk getting cleaved. Much like Skulks must engage a group of marines together, and not one by one.
It was introduced a week or two before release, and games worked pretty well before its introduction. It was just the "full hit" cone before, either hit or miss.
Since skulks are in the "marine's world" when they're closing the gap, why don't we introduce "glancing bullet hits" for when you don't quite hit the skulks but you shoot close enough for 5 and 2 damage each?
One the one hand, it's nice to be able to bite things that are jumping around like crazy. They may jump over/away from me, but at least I do a little damage to help push the battle along and get closer to a kill.
On the other hand, it's less incentive to aim properly, and practice your bites to land them perfectly. Nothing pushes a person to better themselves more than getting dominated in a situation where it is possible to overcome the odds with an ample amount of practice. I'll admit that I didn't like missing bites, but it drove me to try and get better. With glancing bites, it set me to more of an "Eh, good enough" mentality, which was then reinforced by the influx of new players allowing me to get easy kills, boosting my ego quite a bit. It's not really ideal to me, but it's not like I'm trying to break into the competitive scene or anything. I just like having a need to better myself rather than just a want, it makes me more determined to get to that upper level of play and aiming. That's just me though.
The only thing I really don't like about the glancing bites is the false sense of winning they give you. I can't even begin to count the amount of times I've seen other people say "I bit you 8 times, WTF why didn't you die?!" or the amount of times that I've said the same thing to myself. It can be frustrating and as we all know, frustration can lead to raging of all kinds, which isn't good for anything.
Being able to disable, or choose your level of glancing bites (3 levels, beginner, intermediate & pro to cover all 3 fields of the glancing bite) for yourself might be pretty neat. But, I'm not expecting something like that to ever be implemented.
Can't we worry more about the bites and bullets just not registering, or going through time to kill you in another room, or stacked to kill you instantly?
But if we have to tackle this now, I am against removing the glancing bites. I like having people to play with. Sure, tutorials to explain the glancing bites to players would be nice, but not having them at all would leave a lot of new players going, "WTF?! I BIT HIM, AND IT DID NO DAMAGE?!"
If the teeth chomp you, the teeth chomp you. Just because they ripped open a gash on your leg instead of taking a huge chunk out of your chest doesn't mean they didn't still chew on you.
So, in summation, keep glancing bites. It gives new Skulks a chance. I'll keep hitting my 75 damage bites, or not, as the netcode allows it.
More likely I'll get one shot by more marines with shotguns who are looking the opposite direction.
I'm generally indifferent, but I'm also a bit confused. I've been playing for a few weeks now, but the only skulk damage numbers I ever see are 10 for parasite and 75 for a bite. Either I've never had a glancing bite, or the feedback is somehow completely missing.
helps to bridge the gap between noob and pros from 0 to 75 dmg per hit not 0 or 75
remembet a long time ago charlie mentioned he wanted to find a way to stop the chatic danceoff that happens once skulks gets into melee range well imo this implementation helped a lot
<!--quoteo(post=2034859:date=Nov 26 2012, 06:38 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 26 2012, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It actually is a free gimmick.
It was introduced a week or two before release, and games worked pretty well before its introduction. It was just the "full hit" cone before, either hit or miss.
Since skulks are in the "marine's world" when they're closing the gap, why don't we introduce "glancing bullet hits" for when you don't quite hit the skulks but you shoot close enough for 5 and 2 damage each?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
during beta you had 2 different things:
1) you had only experienced players, not newcomers 2) you probably didn't play when there was the change on bite cone and distance, and you had also knockback on rines.
Because if you was there, you shouldn't say it worked pretty well: you had to land 2 perfect hits and 1 parasite and close distance 2 times at least, as each hit sent the marines meters away.
during beta there was fade domination, also, so you rushed fade egg instead of onos egg. Do you remember it? a fade was like an onos that could fly and evade istantly, dealing just slight less damage. with 1 fade you could stop the advancing of 3-4 marines.
I feel it's more fun and balanced to play today that during beta.
There is also another thing to consider: early game is "simple" to land a perfect 75 hit. Late game, with structures, unit and compressed firefight (the fight at start are between 3-4 per side at most, when late game it's full team vs full team in the same room) you can be happy to land a 75 with some 50, for lag, fps drop etc.
<!--quoteo(post=2034939:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:58 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Nov 26 2012, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->glancing was a good mechanic imo helps to bridge the gap between noob and pros from 0 to 75 dmg per hit not 0 or 75 remembet a long time ago charlie mentioned he wanted to find a way to stop the chatic danceoff that happens once skulks gets into melee range well imo this implementation helped a lot<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't remember that, but if he really wanted to do that, it makes me sad that "glancing bites" was what he chose to stop it. I actually enjoyed those "chaotic dance-offs" on both marine and alien side.
Adding glancing bite was a good move, the game launch would have been a disaster with the bite of the late beta.
But I also think it should be removed, or changed, if they manage to fix the collision and feedback problems. It does feel a bit inconsistent and over-complicated.
Speaking about hitbox, do something with the onos one.
<!--quoteo(post=2034740:date=Nov 25 2012, 07:47 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 25 2012, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glancing blows are a crutch for poor skulk play, the bite cone size and range was fine before the addition of glancing blows, all that was needed was better collisions and movement.
Now we have a mechanic that rewards you for missing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Glancing bites need to stay. They help new players get into the game and doesn't really assist the skilled player.
I only read the first page but a few people brought up aliens winning all the time. I haven't noticed that, my games seem pretty 45/55. But even if the alien wins were so high removing glancing bites isn't going to do squat to change that.
In fact I think removing glancing bites would make aliens win more. Glancing bites allow new players to learn how to play the skulk on a more subtle learning curve. Remove glancing bites and suddenly the learning curve becomes a lot more steep. New players start flocking to marines more than aliens, thus making aliens win more.
The only problem I currently have with glancing bites is it's not noticeable enough for inexperienced players. The only way to know if your bite was direct is to pay attention to the draw numbers while fighting, which new players aren't likely to do. This leads to a lot of confusion for new players as to why they didn't kill the marine in X number of bites like last time.
The only thing I could think of to make them more obvious would be to have blood splatter on the teeth. all the teeth would get blood on them if it was a direct bite, and only the appropriate side teeth would get blood on them if it was glancing. The blood would have to come in stages too so you can tell what's happening each bite though, as in first bite theres a little blood second bite theres a little more etc. etc.
EDIT: <!--quoteo(post=2034859:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:38 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 26 2012, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was introduced a week or two before release, and games worked <u>pretty well </u>before its introduction. It was just the "full hit" cone before, either hit or miss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you sure you were in the beta? before release the cone was ridiculously big to the point were skulks were arguably better than every other unit at fighting marines. Then it got nerfed to the point where skulks were way to difficult to play for a majority of players. And then they introduced glancing bites and everyone was happy.
Glancing blows are a horribly frustrating mechanic and should be removed.
I always count the hits I get in so I can plan ahead in the fight. For example if I'm going against two marines as a skulk, and get two bites in and about to land the final hit, I already start moving towards the other marine. Now if some of those hits just happened to be a ###### glancing blow, I'm suddenly left between two marines without cover.
Another example: I'm going against a shotgunner as a fade. I count the hits (which seem to be right on the spot) and think I can finish him with the next swipe before he can get a shot off. NO, there was a ###### glancing blow! BAM! shotgun in the face. Also due to the requirement of the fade to dodge and move all the time at fast speeds, you'll be landing those sissy slaps all the time.
IT TAKES AWAY SKILL AND REPLACES IT WITH RANDOMNESS. Away with it.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
Well to be fair... If you did get glancing blows and there wasn't any damage like it used to be, you'd still be between two marines without cover :P
I think we need a sound added to it for the three different hits. Scrolling Combat Text can only do so much, what with all the visual obscuring this game does, it tends to get real messy in terms of visual information your have to decipher...
<!--quoteo(post=2035038:date=Nov 26 2012, 08:44 AM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Nov 26 2012, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IT TAKES AWAY SKILL AND REPLACES IT WITH RANDOMNESS. Away with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Glancing bites aren't random though. and just a tip if you're actually planing your fights by the amount of damage you're outputting I would suggest one thing that would fix your problem. memorize how much health the unit has and pay attention to the draw numbers. This is what I do and I always know how many more bites/bulelts it's gonna take to kill my target.
P.S. Even if they removed glancing bites it would only make you do 0 damage. They aren't going to widen the 75 damage cone anymore than it already is.
EDIT: <!--quoteo(post=2035043:date=Nov 26 2012, 08:48 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 26 2012, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think we need a sound added to it for the three different hits. Scrolling Combat Text can only do so much, what with all the visual obscuring this game does, it tends to get real messy in terms of visual information your have to decipher...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With all the noise that happens in a fight, I think a sound would be hard to listen for. I think an obvious and lasting visual indicater would do the trick. see my previous comment on this page for how I think it should be dealt with.
We have a game that has a very steep learning curve. And your idea is, to make it even more difficult or all players will stop playing this game? Glancing Bite is why the aliens win more than the marines? Have you really played this game? Marines don't lose because of glancing bites.
Marines lose, because they need more teamplay to win. They lose because new players stack marines and experienced players fill up the alien slots. In the first weeks after release the players were at a much more equal skill and knowledge level. You had to explain the game several times. But it was no problem, because the other side had the same problems. The people listened to orders and took advice.
What have we now? We got two groups of players. The people that played enough NS2 to think they know the game and the people that have only played occasionally or are new. If I'm commanding a marine team now, the chances are that only 2 out of 7 people are actually listening to my order. (Or at least cover each other and walk in groups.) The new players don't know better and the old players think they know everything and run off alone to axe an upgrade or RT. Leaving you with 0 teamplay. (and me, the only one talking) And now you wonder why marines are losing more often? Play commander and it gets obvious. It is luck when you get a team that is actually listening to orders, uses its mics and work together.
Most times, newbs actually work better in a team than this pseudo-pros that simply run away alone. Marines don't lose because aliens are overpowered (or have glancing bites). Just look at competitive games to see this. Aliens win more, because marines are more difficult to play right. (=teamwork and cover)
A solution needs to be something that either demands more teamplay from aliens (without making them no fun to play). Or decreases the teamplay needed for marines. And I will give you that, without glancing bites, pro marines would have an easier time to win consecutive engagements with low skilled skulks. But is that really what we want for NS2? Encouraging more rambo-players?
Glancing hits usually make so little damage that they would make the same effect by not being there in the first place (especially in the pubrambo scenario). All the while it adds layer of doubt whenever you hit a marine, you never know if its worth running for cover and coming back again. Just fix the collisions, movement, add proper hit feedback, get rid of the huge delay in rotation of models etc. basic stuff before adding a new mechanic on top of broken foundation.
<!--quoteo(post=2035049:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glancing bites aren't random though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah but they surely feel like they are, especially with the fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2035049:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->memorize how much health the unit has and pay attention to the draw numbers. This is what I do and I always know how many more bites/bulelts it's gonna take to kill my target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you can tell a difference between a normal hit and a glancing hit, especially after the damage number is already running, you're concentrating on a totally wrong thing during combat. "I always know" yeah right.
<!--quoteo(post=2035049:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.S. Even if they removed glancing bites it would only make you do 0 damage. They aren't going to widen the 75 damage cone anymore than it already is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, precisely what I'm asking. Just fix the hitreg and it'll be fine. No more confusing hidden mechanics. (Confusing to new players and old players alike, albeit for different reasons).
<!--quoteo(post=2035049:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With all the noise that happens in a fight, I think a sound would be hard to listen for. I think an obvious and lasting visual indicater would do the trick. see my previous comment on this page for how I think it should be dealt with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seems like a very flaky and patched-on solution. Only adds to the confusion with so much going on during a fight. More predictability=more anticipation=more skill.
my opinion from pub play is that average skulks need help against decent marines.
i get plenty of marine kills as skulk but it has very little to do with aim. my kills are from unpredictable movement and ambushing.
if glancing blows dealt the full 75 damage, then it would be a crutch. as they only deal 25-50 damage; i can't really see how they reward poor accuracy more than just punishing marines for letting a skulk get into melee range.
edit: if you play with damage text you can't really mistake 75 for 25 either, unless you have dyscalculia. not to mention the fact that you should know if your bite was on target without even reading the damage text.
With draw damage and glancing blows I find that skulking is like counting cards at blackjack.
I did 75 damage on my first and second bite, it's still early game so lvl 0 armor so I just need 25 to finish him oh wait he just got a med pack now I need the full 75....
While keeping track of draw damage is initially distracting I found that with practice I intuitively monitor current damage and am able to accurately estimate needed damage. Also while I usually aim for 75 damage when I know they are really low ill take the 25dmg snap shot
Glancing blows are a great system, they raise the skill floor without touching the skill ceiling, this way newer players too can at least have some fun playing skulk and the gap between the marine and skulk skill floors is reduced significantly. (Which from a balance perspective is pretty important)
<!--quoteo(post=2035068:date=Nov 26 2012, 09:26 AM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Nov 26 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can tell a difference between a normal hit and a glancing hit, especially after the damage number is already running, you're concentrating on a totally wrong thing during combat. "I always know" yeah right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You dense? you don't need to pay attention to what type of bite you did if you watch the numbers.
Basically what you just said is you look at the incoming numbers, say it says 125 damage after two bites. you're going okay that's a 50 damage bite and a 75 damage bite so 50+75=125 and X-125 is how much health the marine has. Where X is total health pool. why would you need to tell if your bite was glancing or not if you're watching the numbers?..
The only time you need to add is when the numbers don't automatically add, why would I split an already added number just to add them back together???
<!--quoteo(post=2035068:date=Nov 26 2012, 09:26 AM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Nov 26 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Just </u>fix the hitreg and it'll be fine. No more confusing hidden mechanics. (Confusing to new players and old players alike, albeit for different reasons).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol at Just, yeah no problem seems simple enough to do.
What about glancing bites is confusing?... it's a pretty straight forward mechanic. Should I draw you a little chart to help you understand?..
I hate them, but would hate them less if collision and netowrk performance were better.
I wish i could play without the damage indicator on, i bloody hate it. Someone said they're working on feedback ingame to let you know what kind of hit you've landed?
<!--quoteo(post=2035090:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:00 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You dense? you don't need to pay attention to what type of bite you did if you watch the numbers.
Basically what you just said is you look at the incoming numbers, say it says 125 damage after two bites. you're going okay that's a 50 damage bite and a 75 damage bite so 50+75=125 and X-125 is how much health the marine has. Where X is total health pool. why would you need to tell if your bite was glancing or not if you're watching the numbers?..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The point was that you should not be watching the numbers. Besides they're not updated immediately, but there's the annoying running animation which makes instantly spotting the values very hard, when you're trying to concentrate on the battle itself.
<!--quoteo(post=2035090:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:00 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol at Just, yeah no problem seems simple enough to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As in: "Just concentrate on the important issue and leave these patch-up gimmicks alone".
<!--quoteo(post=2035090:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:00 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about glancing bites is confusing?... it's a pretty straight forward mechanic. Should I draw you a little chart to help you understand?..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As other people here have commented, the varying damage output seems to confuse newbies <!--quoteo(post=2034566:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:10 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 26 2012, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"How come you kill me in two bites, I can't kill you in two bites!!!"
I've heard that one quite often :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And confusing to more experienced players because you can't always be staring at that number when there's a lot going on around you, and then you're unable to anticipate.
But you may draw a chart for yourself if it makes it easier for you to understand what I'm saying.
I'm amused by all these pros more or less arguing that they wish they had missed because dealing damage inconveniences them.
I especially liked the marine commander who doesn't bother with A2/A3 because the difference between 8 glancing hits and 12 glancing hits isn't noticable.
Yeah, i would rather miss completely than deal 25 damage, because then i can be sure of the amount of hits i need and can make judgement based on that. At the same time you make the mechanics less complicated and less prone to error, which right now seems to be a problem with getting 25 damage on hits that should be full damage. And no, trying to calculate from numbers you effectively cant see when dodging doesnt really work.
The biggest problem currently is feedback. I see a lot of confused players on public who think that you do less damage if you hit the feets/hands of the marines. They usually think that body hits/head shots rewards more damage. Players should be able to realise right away when they are doing full damage and when they do glancing hits without seeing the damage numbers.
Overall though I think glacing hits are ok but its radius is a little bit to big. You should be able to avoid taking hits if you are dodging well enough.
Comments
100% of the early game, which pretty much defines the mid- and late-game in most of the matches. Glancing bites have a huge effect throughout the game, from start to finish (except onos I guess).
<!--quoteo(post=2034804:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:33 PM:name=Afterhours)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afterhours @ Nov 25 2012, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But when you're leaping/jumping around trying to bite a JP/SG w3/a3, as well as dodge his shots, I'll take whatever I can get. In my opinion, this is a shallow argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
JP/SG should absolutely dominate skulks. Skulks are free, while JP/SG costs 30 a pop of p-res, and a LOT of t-res and time to get to (not considering recyclable weapons). I don't see a valid argument there.
This argument still comes down to a measure of players skill.
It's not game breaking. A skulk must still close the gap to do this damage. It's not some sort of free gimmick.
On top of that, it forces the marines to spread apart, or risk getting cleaved. Much like Skulks must engage a group of marines together, and not one by one.
Adapt.
It was introduced a week or two before release, and games worked pretty well before its introduction. It was just the "full hit" cone before, either hit or miss.
Since skulks are in the "marine's world" when they're closing the gap, why don't we introduce "glancing bullet hits" for when you don't quite hit the skulks but you shoot close enough for 5 and 2 damage each?
One the one hand, it's nice to be able to bite things that are jumping around like crazy. They may jump over/away from me, but at least I do a little damage to help push the battle along and get closer to a kill.
On the other hand, it's less incentive to aim properly, and practice your bites to land them perfectly. Nothing pushes a person to better themselves more than getting dominated in a situation where it is possible to overcome the odds with an ample amount of practice. I'll admit that I didn't like missing bites, but it drove me to try and get better. With glancing bites, it set me to more of an "Eh, good enough" mentality, which was then reinforced by the influx of new players allowing me to get easy kills, boosting my ego quite a bit. It's not really ideal to me, but it's not like I'm trying to break into the competitive scene or anything. I just like having a need to better myself rather than just a want, it makes me more determined to get to that upper level of play and aiming. That's just me though.
The only thing I really don't like about the glancing bites is the false sense of winning they give you. I can't even begin to count the amount of times I've seen other people say "I bit you 8 times, WTF why didn't you die?!" or the amount of times that I've said the same thing to myself. It can be frustrating and as we all know, frustration can lead to raging of all kinds, which isn't good for anything.
Being able to disable, or choose your level of glancing bites (3 levels, beginner, intermediate & pro to cover all 3 fields of the glancing bite) for yourself might be pretty neat. But, I'm not expecting something like that to ever be implemented.
But if we have to tackle this now, I am against removing the glancing bites. I like having people to play with. Sure, tutorials to explain the glancing bites to players would be nice, but not having them at all would leave a lot of new players going, "WTF?! I BIT HIM, AND IT DID NO DAMAGE?!"
If the teeth chomp you, the teeth chomp you. Just because they ripped open a gash on your leg instead of taking a huge chunk out of your chest doesn't mean they didn't still chew on you.
So, in summation, keep glancing bites. It gives new Skulks a chance. I'll keep hitting my 75 damage bites, or not, as the netcode allows it.
More likely I'll get one shot by more marines with shotguns who are looking the opposite direction.
helps to bridge the gap between noob and pros
from 0 to 75 dmg per hit
not 0 or 75
remembet a long time ago charlie mentioned he wanted to find a way to stop the chatic danceoff that happens once skulks gets into melee range
well imo this implementation helped a lot
It was introduced a week or two before release, and games worked pretty well before its introduction. It was just the "full hit" cone before, either hit or miss.
Since skulks are in the "marine's world" when they're closing the gap, why don't we introduce "glancing bullet hits" for when you don't quite hit the skulks but you shoot close enough for 5 and 2 damage each?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
during beta you had 2 different things:
1) you had only experienced players, not newcomers
2) you probably didn't play when there was the change on bite cone and distance, and you had also knockback on rines.
Because if you was there, you shouldn't say it worked pretty well: you had to land 2 perfect hits and 1 parasite and close distance 2 times at least, as each hit sent the marines meters away.
during beta there was fade domination, also, so you rushed fade egg instead of onos egg. Do you remember it? a fade was like an onos that could fly and evade istantly, dealing just slight less damage. with 1 fade you could stop the advancing of 3-4 marines.
I feel it's more fun and balanced to play today that during beta.
There is also another thing to consider:
early game is "simple" to land a perfect 75 hit. Late game, with structures, unit and compressed firefight (the fight at start are between 3-4 per side at most, when late game it's full team vs full team in the same room) you can be happy to land a 75 with some 50, for lag, fps drop etc.
I don't remember that, but if he really wanted to do that, it makes me sad that "glancing bites" was what he chose to stop it. I actually enjoyed those "chaotic dance-offs" on both marine and alien side.
But I also think it should be removed, or changed, if they manage to fix the collision and feedback problems. It does feel a bit inconsistent and over-complicated.
Speaking about hitbox, do something with the onos one.
Sounds fair to me.
Now we have a mechanic that rewards you for missing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much this.
I only read the first page but a few people brought up aliens winning all the time. I haven't noticed that, my games seem pretty 45/55. But even if the alien wins were so high removing glancing bites isn't going to do squat to change that.
In fact I think removing glancing bites would make aliens win more. Glancing bites allow new players to learn how to play the skulk on a more subtle learning curve. Remove glancing bites and suddenly the learning curve becomes a lot more steep. New players start flocking to marines more than aliens, thus making aliens win more.
The only problem I currently have with glancing bites is it's not noticeable enough for inexperienced players. The only way to know if your bite was direct is to pay attention to the draw numbers while fighting, which new players aren't likely to do. This leads to a lot of confusion for new players as to why they didn't kill the marine in X number of bites like last time.
The only thing I could think of to make them more obvious would be to have blood splatter on the teeth. all the teeth would get blood on them if it was a direct bite, and only the appropriate side teeth would get blood on them if it was glancing. The blood would have to come in stages too so you can tell what's happening each bite though, as in first bite theres a little blood second bite theres a little more etc. etc.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=2034859:date=Nov 26 2012, 12:38 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 26 2012, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was introduced a week or two before release, and games worked <u>pretty well </u>before its introduction. It was just the "full hit" cone before, either hit or miss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you sure you were in the beta? before release the cone was ridiculously big to the point were skulks were arguably better than every other unit at fighting marines. Then it got nerfed to the point where skulks were way to difficult to play for a majority of players. And then they introduced glancing bites and everyone was happy.
I always count the hits I get in so I can plan ahead in the fight. For example if I'm going against two marines as a skulk, and get two bites in and about to land the final hit, I already start moving towards the other marine. Now if some of those hits just happened to be a ###### glancing blow, I'm suddenly left between two marines without cover.
Another example: I'm going against a shotgunner as a fade. I count the hits (which seem to be right on the spot) and think I can finish him with the next swipe before he can get a shot off. NO, there was a ###### glancing blow! BAM! shotgun in the face. Also due to the requirement of the fade to dodge and move all the time at fast speeds, you'll be landing those sissy slaps all the time.
IT TAKES AWAY SKILL AND REPLACES IT WITH RANDOMNESS. Away with it.
I think we need a sound added to it for the three different hits. Scrolling Combat Text can only do so much, what with all the visual obscuring this game does, it tends to get real messy in terms of visual information your have to decipher...
Glancing bites aren't random though. and just a tip if you're actually planing your fights by the amount of damage you're outputting I would suggest one thing that would fix your problem. memorize how much health the unit has and pay attention to the draw numbers. This is what I do and I always know how many more bites/bulelts it's gonna take to kill my target.
P.S. Even if they removed glancing bites it would only make you do 0 damage. They aren't going to widen the 75 damage cone anymore than it already is.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=2035043:date=Nov 26 2012, 08:48 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 26 2012, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think we need a sound added to it for the three different hits. Scrolling Combat Text can only do so much, what with all the visual obscuring this game does, it tends to get real messy in terms of visual information your have to decipher...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With all the noise that happens in a fight, I think a sound would be hard to listen for. I think an obvious and lasting visual indicater would do the trick. see my previous comment on this page for how I think it should be dealt with.
We have a game that has a very steep learning curve. And your idea is, to make it even more difficult or all players will stop playing this game? Glancing Bite is why the aliens win more than the marines? Have you really played this game? Marines don't lose because of glancing bites.
Marines lose, because they need more teamplay to win. They lose because new players stack marines and experienced players fill up the alien slots. In the first weeks after release the players were at a much more equal skill and knowledge level. You had to explain the game several times. But it was no problem, because the other side had the same problems. The people listened to orders and took advice.
What have we now? We got two groups of players. The people that played enough NS2 to think they know the game and the people that have only played occasionally or are new. If I'm commanding a marine team now, the chances are that only 2 out of 7 people are actually listening to my order. (Or at least cover each other and walk in groups.) The new players don't know better and the old players think they know everything and run off alone to axe an upgrade or RT. Leaving you with 0 teamplay. (and me, the only one talking) And now you wonder why marines are losing more often? Play commander and it gets obvious. It is luck when you get a team that is actually listening to orders, uses its mics and work together.
Most times, newbs actually work better in a team than this pseudo-pros that simply run away alone. Marines don't lose because aliens are overpowered (or have glancing bites). Just look at competitive games to see this. Aliens win more, because marines are more difficult to play right. (=teamwork and cover)
A solution needs to be something that either demands more teamplay from aliens (without making them no fun to play). Or decreases the teamplay needed for marines. And I will give you that, without glancing bites, pro marines would have an easier time to win consecutive engagements with low skilled skulks. But is that really what we want for NS2? Encouraging more rambo-players?
<!--quoteo(post=2035049:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glancing bites aren't random though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but they surely feel like they are, especially with the fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2035049:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->memorize how much health the unit has and pay attention to the draw numbers. This is what I do and I always know how many more bites/bulelts it's gonna take to kill my target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can tell a difference between a normal hit and a glancing hit, especially after the damage number is already running, you're concentrating on a totally wrong thing during combat. "I always know" yeah right.
<!--quoteo(post=2035049:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.S. Even if they removed glancing bites it would only make you do 0 damage. They aren't going to widen the 75 damage cone anymore than it already is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, precisely what I'm asking. Just fix the hitreg and it'll be fine. No more confusing hidden mechanics. (Confusing to new players and old players alike, albeit for different reasons).
<!--quoteo(post=2035049:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With all the noise that happens in a fight, I think a sound would be hard to listen for. I think an obvious and lasting visual indicater would do the trick. see my previous comment on this page for how I think it should be dealt with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems like a very flaky and patched-on solution. Only adds to the confusion with so much going on during a fight. More predictability=more anticipation=more skill.
i get plenty of marine kills as skulk but it has very little to do with aim. my kills are from unpredictable movement and ambushing.
if glancing blows dealt the full 75 damage, then it would be a crutch. as they only deal 25-50 damage; i can't really see how they reward poor accuracy more than just punishing marines for letting a skulk get into melee range.
edit: if you play with damage text you can't really mistake 75 for 25 either, unless you have dyscalculia. not to mention the fact that you should know if your bite was on target without even reading the damage text.
I did 75 damage on my first and second bite, it's still early game so lvl 0 armor so I just need 25 to finish him oh wait he just got a med pack now I need the full 75....
While keeping track of draw damage is initially distracting I found that with practice I intuitively monitor current damage and am able to accurately estimate needed damage. Also while I usually aim for 75 damage when I know they are really low ill take the 25dmg snap shot
You dense? you don't need to pay attention to what type of bite you did if you watch the numbers.
Basically what you just said is you look at the incoming numbers, say it says 125 damage after two bites. you're going okay that's a 50 damage bite and a 75 damage bite so 50+75=125 and X-125 is how much health the marine has. Where X is total health pool. why would you need to tell if your bite was glancing or not if you're watching the numbers?..
The only time you need to add is when the numbers don't automatically add, why would I split an already added number just to add them back together???
<!--quoteo(post=2035068:date=Nov 26 2012, 09:26 AM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Nov 26 2012, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Just </u>fix the hitreg and it'll be fine. No more confusing hidden mechanics. (Confusing to new players and old players alike, albeit for different reasons).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol at Just, yeah no problem seems simple enough to do.
What about glancing bites is confusing?... it's a pretty straight forward mechanic. Should I draw you a little chart to help you understand?..
I wish i could play without the damage indicator on, i bloody hate it. Someone said they're working on feedback ingame to let you know what kind of hit you've landed?
Basically what you just said is you look at the incoming numbers, say it says 125 damage after two bites. you're going okay that's a 50 damage bite and a 75 damage bite so 50+75=125 and X-125 is how much health the marine has. Where X is total health pool. why would you need to tell if your bite was glancing or not if you're watching the numbers?..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point was that you should not be watching the numbers. Besides they're not updated immediately, but there's the annoying running animation which makes instantly spotting the values very hard, when you're trying to concentrate on the battle itself.
<!--quoteo(post=2035090:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:00 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol at Just, yeah no problem seems simple enough to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As in: "Just concentrate on the important issue and leave these patch-up gimmicks alone".
<!--quoteo(post=2035090:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:00 PM:name=Shrimm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrimm @ Nov 26 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about glancing bites is confusing?... it's a pretty straight forward mechanic. Should I draw you a little chart to help you understand?..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As other people here have commented, the varying damage output seems to confuse newbies
<!--quoteo(post=2034566:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:10 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 26 2012, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"How come you kill me in two bites, I can't kill you in two bites!!!"
I've heard that one quite often :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And confusing to more experienced players because you can't always be staring at that number when there's a lot going on around you, and then you're unable to anticipate.
But you may draw a chart for yourself if it makes it easier for you to understand what I'm saying.
I especially liked the marine commander who doesn't bother with A2/A3 because the difference between 8 glancing hits and 12 glancing hits isn't noticable.
Overall though I think glacing hits are ok but its radius is a little bit to big. You should be able to avoid taking hits if you are dodging well enough.