:( Lerk changes didn't make it :(
CodeCowboy
Join Date: 2012-09-21 Member: 160235Members
Join Date: 2012-09-21 Member: 160235Members
Looks to me like most of the changes from the mod went straight into the game. With the notable exception of all changes to Lerks. Feels like a huge nerf-bat hit across the aliens, with no buffs to them save fade's energy being slightly lowered.
I know it needed re-balance. But it seems to me that instead of small tweaks quite a few huge changes were made. I'd love to see just slightly more health/armor on Lerks... or slightly higher spike damage. Unless the marines are completely foolish it is very difficult to actually kill one with spikes only.
I know it needed re-balance. But it seems to me that instead of small tweaks quite a few huge changes were made. I'd love to see just slightly more health/armor on Lerks... or slightly higher spike damage. Unless the marines are completely foolish it is very difficult to actually kill one with spikes only.
Comments
trying to make some sense out of this, but I cant.
If you want to "fix" Aliens, go tweak a Lifeform that's broken. Lerks are in a good place, and have been for a few builds. You stay the hell away from them!
I think we, the forum, tend to look at res cost too specifically when comparing gear and lifeforms. Its more of a rock/paper/scissor then it seems most of the time and that does seem to be the view UWE takes.
And I disagree, spikes DPS is fine.
trying to make some sense out of this, but I cant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra put out a mod on the workshop called "Game balance mod" where most of these changes/tweaks were tested before going live as an official build.
If you want to "fix" Aliens, go tweak a Lifeform that's broken. Lerks are in a good place, and have been for a few builds. You stay the hell away from them!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure what servers you play on, but high population servers lerks before spores are almost a waste of resources because there are soo many marines running around that it is insta-death to approach any of them. If you stay at distance and spike, sure, you can get in some hits, but unless they just stand there and don't run around a corner, you can't get any kills.
Aside from that, a single marine with a slightly upgraded gun can kill a lerk before the lerk can fly away.
Aside from that, a single marine with a slightly upgraded gun can kill a lerk before the lerk can fly away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spikes aren't the Lerk's primary weapon, Bite is. I mainly use Spikes to get in some free damage as I approach for a Bite. If you can't win reliably against a single rifle marine you're doing it very wrong, even moreso if you can't even escape without dying.
Aside from that, a single marine with a slightly upgraded gun can kill a lerk before the lerk can fly away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Likewise, I'm not sure what servers you play on. And my anecdotes are just as valid as yours, so whats your point?
While you seem to have trouble with Lerks in their current form, I do not have the same issue you do, and commonly use Lerks to great effect, well before Spores is researched. I might recommend reading some of the other threads on this issue that have recently fallen off the front page, watching some Videos or Twitch channels (like SabaHell's).
Lerks have a very high skill ceiling, and are by no means easy to master. While buffing them will make them easier to play for less experienced players, it will make those of us who play Lerks almost exclusively nigh unstoppable.
I promise you, those health/armor buffs would not have worked out the way you expect, and the Lerk would have very rapidly been nerfed again.
It's not broken, don't try to fix it.
I do wish its base speed was a little higher though, it really needs celerity to be effective imo. (Which is poor design)
It's time they look at the fade first.
I was not aware, thank you. now it does make sense.
This. Lerks are so fine its ridiculous. I'd put a ring on it if there wasn't some sort of intergalactic law preventing me.
I know it needed re-balance. But it seems to me that instead of small tweaks quite a few huge changes were made. I'd love to see just slightly more health/armor on Lerks... or slightly higher spike damage. Unless the marines are completely foolish it is very difficult to actually kill one with spikes only.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree man!
The changes to lerk so they had more health than a fade should have totally been included...
Oh My <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->God<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> UWE, it is a <b>NERF</b> that you <b>DIDNT</b> include the <b>totally</b> <i>not</i> <u>Crazily Overpowered changes</u>!!!
I recognize that swoop and bite is the early lerk. Yes, I can take out a single marine, two if they are bad/not upgraded before needing to go heal. I believe I stated that they are practically useless <b>on high population servers</b>... because you cannot and should not swoop into a group of 4-5 marines to bite and run.
I didn't say I couldn't evade a couple marines.. I said lots. Since on high pop servers there are so many marines everywhere it is very frustrating to be limited to spiking most of the time. ESPECIALLY once they get shotguns.
Also, just because there are a few people who don't need the extra cushion doesn't mean that the vast majority don't need it. Kudos for being awesome, I just think it would make the game in general be a little more fun to see the middle tier life-forms used.
I totally agree yo, I deffo think that the low tier life form should have more health than the middle tier life-forms...
Hell bro I think if we are giving lerks and extra 100 hp we should give da skulks an extra 200 hp too yo, and leave those silly fades on bad hp man.... they are expensive, it makes no sence to make them good... if we make the cheap life forms good ye boys... we can get better stuffz without spendin da rez innit bruv... Its tinking out of da box yo.... loopholes! ya get me?
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Translation:
I am not saying: "Your bad at lerk I dont need extra HP so you shouldn't."
I am saying: "You cant give a lerk a health buff that makes it TOUGHER than a fade."
In essence. "As for fade health buffs before you ask for lerk buffs."
The problem is that you have the opportunity to get better with the Lerk on you own as it is. Making it <b>easier</b> doesn't make you a better Lerk, it just makes the Lerk harder to kill.
An extreme example of this is an argument that "Lots of people have trouble getting head shots in CS:S. There are a few people who are really good at it, but the rest of us could benefit from Aim Assist."
Again, an extreme (and unlikely) example, but it illustrates my point. Just because you do not yet count yourself as being on of those few who dominate with a Lerk, doesn't mean you are incapable of reaching that point. Nor does it mean the Lerk needs to be changed to compensate for you.
I am saying: "You cant give a lerk a health buff that makes it TOUGHER than a fade."
In essence. "As for fade health buffs before you ask for lerk buffs."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say they should be tougher than Fades either. I just said I was sad they didn't get even a little bump. I didn't assume the exact changes in the mod would be in the final build. Shoot similar effect would be to shrink their hitbox a small amount... 5% or something... that's equivalent to health without actually being health.
Lerks are amazing when teammates are drawing the fire though which is what they are intended to be, not to farm kills but to pick off lone marines and support the team with spores, umbra and ranged spikes. Kinda like an offensive gorge.
More like saying, "Hey Dude, I can head-shot you with the AWP while jumping and flipping to scope and back in a microsecond because all I do is play CS all day so you shouldn't complain"
All I was saying is that if game balance is focused only on the game experts then it will rapidly lose its casual gamers as it feels unbalanced to them.
Example: In beta sometimes a Khammander would go Onos Egg very early. Ok... that was interesting and resulted in some big fire-fights, but most marines could play as a team and just murder it. It wasn't unbalancing to have Oni that early, teamwork compensated. However, now you cannot get onos till hive 3? Why? Because pubs didn't know how to deal with it. Also, as an aside, there will rarely be an onos without stomp now.
I would say the same about fade, except as fade you need carapace since u have less ability to juke then a lerk.
Urg no...
I think your main problem is that shotgun destroy lerk, making lerks tougher would make it even harder to kill them with LMG.
In this case the problem is the shotgun, not the lerk.
All I was saying is that if game balance is focused only on the game experts then it will rapidly lose its casual gamers as it feels unbalanced to them.
Example: In beta sometimes a Khammander would go Onos Egg very early. Ok... that was interesting and resulted in some big fire-fights, but most marines could play as a team and just murder it. It wasn't unbalancing to have Oni that early, teamwork compensated. However, now you cannot get onos till hive 3? Why? Because pubs didn't know how to deal with it. Also, as an aside, there will rarely be an onos without stomp now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your attempt to restate my example merely demonstrates that you missed my point.
Your example with the Onos is a mechanic based on resource timing. Your original problem has nothing to do with this, but rather that "casual gamers" have trouble with Lerking. I'm doing my best to <b>NOT</b> tell you that you need to Learn to Play, so don't assume that's what I'm saying or put words in my mouth. But the only thing limiting your effectiveness with the Lerk is your individual ability. Attempting to balance a skill based mechanic by <b>decreasing</b> the skill necessary to execute an engagement does not improve the game.
Let me be perfectly clear. You want to make the Lerk <b>easier</b> to play. That's fine. My point, is that <b>buffing</b> the Lerk is the wrong way to go about doing this.
Feel free to address that specific idea in your next post. Continuing to ignore it simply demonstrates a lack of understanding that undermines your position.
Lerk is not a siege or assault unit. You are support and assasination. A hit and run specialist. Spike from a distance, a far distance! Use your alien vision to spot and pepper marines. You'll not kill them most of the time, but you will soften them up for your buddies. Bite! Poison bite does 60 damage. Spore first to confuse and blind them and bite can be extremely effective. Spores! You will lose celerity when you use this ability, it can also drain your energy pretty quick if you're not careful. Never overdo it and always keep enough reserves to flap like a hummingbird on crack when you need to get out fast. If this is a problem for you, take adrenaline to learn the ropes.
This may not be obvious to everyone right away, but you can hold down space to glide and maintain your speed (gliding up bleeds off speed, gliding down increases it). Flapping uses energy and is only necessary to speed up. Glide is your cruise control.
Do not fly in straight lines. Ever.
Do not cling to walls in plain view and try to spike marines.
Do not stop moving in enemy territory
Do not float lazily in the air thinking you should somehow be invisible and immune to bullets.
Do use vents! You can fit, and you can fly in vents. (flap those wings!)
The point of the lerk is that you're fast. Lightning fast, and the most maneuverable creature in the game. Speed is life. Marines should know you as nothing more than a blur that brings death. You do not need more health and armor, you need to learn how to evade. I'd even go so far as to say Lerks could stand to lose a bit of armor.
I just want the gorge to be able to build more structures and be able to burn through all the res he collects, all he can spend at the moment is 9 res.
We're getting tunnels soon, i'd really like to be able to build 1 or more whips as a gorge though.
What I want is to either buff the survivability of the lerk when it is performing its role as intended (close combat or close AOE)... OR ... grant it a slight bump to ranged damage if it is no longer intended to fill that role on high population servers. (say 24 players)
During beta there weren't tons of 24 count servers... most capped at 16-18 as I recall.
Then in one of the tail end patches they massively overhauled the network code and improved performance overall which allowed servers to crank up the number of players. I view that as a great thing! However, the game isn't balanced well for such servers because most game balance was done on much smaller servers. For various reasons some of the game mechanics don't allow for scaling very well. In my opinion the lerk is one of those casualties.
On 16-18 player servers I think the lerk is about right. I can usually find a straggler or two and groups of marines rarely exceed 4. In higher pop servers, for whatever reason, marines seem to almost always be in groups of at least 4.
The question is, how does UWE balance life-form effectiveness between small and large servers without overcompensating one way or the other?
I had been hoping to see SMALL changes. Then if they are op, they aren't too OP. or if they need more, that's fine, at least the trajectory was good.
During beta there weren't tons of 24 count servers... most capped at 16-18 as I recall.
Then in one of the tail end patches they massively overhauled the network code and improved performance overall which allowed servers to crank up the number of players. I view that as a great thing! However, the game isn't balanced well for such servers because most game balance was done on much smaller servers. For various reasons some of the game mechanics don't allow for scaling very well. In my opinion the lerk is one of those casualties.
On 16-18 player servers I think the lerk is about right. I can usually find a straggler or two and groups of marines rarely exceed 4. In higher pop servers, for whatever reason, marines seem to almost always be in groups of at least 4.
The question is, how does UWE balance life-form effectiveness between small and large servers without overcompensating one way or the other?
I had been hoping to see SMALL changes. Then if they are op, they aren't too OP. or if they need more, that's fine, at least the trajectory was good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is that due to scaling most lifeforms are unable to be successful melee units late game vs a large marine team.
Their spikes early game are very good, their bite + maneuverability let them defend res nodes + hives VERY well at the start of the game, but you cannot expect amazing things late game from them.
Shotguns + GLs in more than 2-3 will make your lerk disappear before you can realize what mistake you made.
Even a lucky/good one on its own is going to evolve you back into a skulk for you.
In large servers you cant expect your single lerk to be a broski team carry.
You are 1 of 12, they are using 20/25 res guns and you are a 30 res lifeform.
Lerks like it or not are early game tech and mid/late game SUPPORT... dont expect much more because any more would be OP yo.
This game isn't designed for them, don't play on them if you want an accurate representation of balance, kay and thx