<!--quoteo(post=2030522:date=Nov 20 2012, 04:58 PM:name=grizzlyyy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (grizzlyyy @ Nov 20 2012, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>Aliens seem a bit OP in public servers</i>
No they don't. You're just doing it wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the most pointless post on this thread, and just plain wrong, look at stats, and maybe if you do say something like that, you should back it up with fact.
The camo is over-powered right now, and I say this because there is no way a marine can spot unless near an Obs, or scanning. Scanning takes 3 res, and if you have to do it often, that will be a factor in how much res you can use for other things, especially considering marines are much more dependent on res nodes then aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2032311:date=Nov 22 2012, 05:44 PM:name=Dysto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dysto @ Nov 22 2012, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is the most pointless post on this thread, and just plain wrong, look at stats, and maybe if you do say something like that, you should back it up with fact.
The camo is over-powered right now, and I say this because there is no way a marine can spot unless near an Obs, or scanning. Scanning takes 3 res, and if you have to do it often, that will be a factor in how much res you can use for other things, especially considering marines are much more dependent on res nodes then aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's your opinion, but my opinion is that camo is fine. if aliens are visible while moving, it makes it a useless upgrade because you can only 'camo' yourself from utter buffoons.
btw the most effective counter to camo is probably mines.
when a skulk hits a mine he is uncloaked or dead, if you stand around mines then you're practically invincible to skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=2032014:date=Nov 22 2012, 04:02 AM:name=Viajero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Viajero @ Nov 22 2012, 04:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol, that opinion is still very much incorrect in many aspects and one of my previous posts already answered to that.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what it is we think L4D2 competitive mods really did for us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's really not, I've got years of tournament data and testing to back my observations up. Data from pubs is irrelevant as wild gaps in skill determine the outcome of games much more than balance, and as such no consistent observations can be made. In pubs game balance affects the outcome of the game much less, this is true of all games. In games where both sides knew what they were doing playing a vanilla config matches were determined by one or two plays out of over an hour of gameplay. One team could be competent but obviously less skill than the other and still keep the game close and even win because of direct balance being poor, causing the game to be artificially close. If you propose we just play with numbers to make the game look balanced in a 2 round system, this does nothing to change the fact that very little of the gameplay would be decisive toward the outcome, and as such would be a very poor model for showing which team actually played better.
Obviously you're free to have your own opinion, but it is not a very well informed or tested one and is contrary to the entire existence of what competitive L4D is, and what this game needs to be competitive. Direct balance is absolutely a necessity and cannot be glossed over by a scoring change or a 2 round system.
<!--quoteo(post=2032523:date=Nov 22 2012, 11:13 PM:name=Asmodies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asmodies @ Nov 22 2012, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Data from pubs is irrelevant as wild gaps in skill determine the outcome of games much more than balance, and as such no consistent observations can be made.
In pubs game balance affects the outcome of the game much less, this is true of all games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a heavy user of Promod in clan servers and many others, plus around 1200 hours in L4D2, I think I can be as entitled as anyone to an accurate opinion. Your attitude at dismissing other opinions on the false assumption you are the only one that knows best sounds a bit petty to be honest, and I hope we do not reduce this discussion to a "pissing contest". But worry not, I ll not hold that against you! :D
To the risk of protracting this discusison more than necessary I d like to highlight the obvious contradiction in your base premise quoted above.
If balance in pub games were irrelevant as you say then we would not be having this conversation. There seems to be an alleged unease in the pub scene in NS2 "backed up" by a good number of threads here all pointing towards Aliens being slightly OP in one way or another and by Developers actually churning out builds to try and correct those. If balance affected so little in pub games as you suggest, then all the complaining you can see all over the forum would not exist.
Alas that is not the case. Or at least it does not seem to be the case.
Pub games are completely relevant. The complaints seem to be primarily about pub games. And hence L4D2 pub games are a completely relevant topic to discuss as reference. And as such, and precisely because the difference in gamer´s skills are so diverse in Pub gaming, the Versus switch solution in L4D2 takes care of the pub problem brilliantly.
That notwithstanding I shall indulge you in discussing your competitive play strawman here for a minute. Promod, and other competitive mods, main improvements to the competitive scene are the revamped scoring system which granted points not only for covered ground but also for health remaining (as in the original LFD), and the plugins to balance the campaign designs so to prevent random events (random hordes, different alarm cars, course % placement for witches... you name it) that were affecting differently each team as they switch race in vanilla versus. None of these has to do with race balance per se.
The rest of the other plug ins in the mod that afect actual race balance (weapons available, tank frustration times, throwable availability, god frames, bhoping and many others) havent even got close to real race balancing.... 13 or 14 Promod versions churned out to date attest to that. In some cases some of those changes were actually favouring Survivors! No. The magic in L4D2 was and still is based around the race switch in versus. Any imbalances that remain (and those are a lot) are completely cancelled out by the fact that now you have no or little random events that affect in different ways each team coupled with the fact the scoring system is now that much more accurate to tell skill differences. It is not the race balance that matters primarily to establish a fair winner. In L4D2 race balance or lack thereof only matters from a purely "fun and personal taste" point of view (we veterans are very nitpicky) but it does not influence the appointment of the right winner. And that is primarily thanks to the versus switch.
Put it in another way: If Promod or any of the comp mods were perfectly balancing Survivors and Special Infected as you suggest (which they still dont, and by far), then L4D2 competitive play would not need to play a Versus switch at all. A mirrored Versus would not be needed. Alas the race switch is still a very much intrinsic part of competitive gaming precisely to make sure any remaining unbalances in the races are completely cancelled thanks to the mirror nature of the versus switch. No one in the competitive scene, as far as I know, has ever suggested to get rid of the Versus switch. The race switch system is probably about the only thing the competitive community has not disagreed about.
A Race switch is a good thing in assymetric games as demonstrated not only by L4D2 but by a several decades long practice of mirror games in the traditional Wargame community going back to the 60´s.
Look, I understand that many NS2 gamers and veterans here would love to have an assymetric but also perfectly balanced races; and that is great if it can be achieved. I have no qualms with that. But in one thing at least I hope we agree. Asuming pub game Aliens are indeed somewhat OP then either we get developers or modders to balance the races for good or, failing that, we find alternatives to that holy grail of perfect balancing. Personally? I have seen too many game communities bickering bitter and endlesly about balance to realize that even after a good number of balancing changes/improvements these discussions have a fair chance to never end. There will always be someone who comes up with the latest lame [insert your favourite lifeform/marine unit] rush that has no counter. Versus race switch and a reasonable scoring system allow you to stop that nonsense in pub.
Versus switch is a perfectly valid and proved way to make Pub games work lacking a perfect balance to the races. You dont see "[Special Infected or Survivors] are OP in Versus mode" threads in any of the usual L4D2 pub forums or Steam as often as you do here... and that with a much higher race imbalance in L4D2 pub vanilla mind you! There is a very good reason for that: There is no Versus switch mode in NS2 pub gaming.
Also, our very own NS2 competitive scene sports some form of mirror race switch games for each team encounter already in many of the recent tourneys. Why not apply the same logic to the pub scene via inbuilt code? The game has already built in all the basic for a decent scoring system that can surely be improved with a few tweaks. Make it optional and see how it goes, at least until developers find the right balance or modders create balance mods that work?
I have to admit I have less and less fun playing NS2. I'm really a big fan playing NS since beta 1 many years ago.
When NS2 fnally got release I was just ###### happy, called in sick at work for 1 week and did not much else than to sleep and play NS2. But right now the game experiance for me is just crappy to be honest. After release I played these thriller rounds where my team and me struggled HARD for what felt like 2 hours until we were able to secure the win or maybe lost. It did not matter ... I rarely had so much fun with any game winning as I had with some NS2 losses.
But now some time after release it just sucks. I play like 3-6 games every evening when I get home and for the last 1-2 weeks it ALWAYS was the same: Either Marines roflstomp aliens and win within 10 minutes (pretty much as satifsying as bunker rushes in SC2) or -and thats the case in like 80-90% of the games- aliens just win. It literally is known from the start of the game that aliens will win. Most game are: Aliens take 4 rts and 2 hives uncontestet(leading to a 7-3 rt situation soon after) which reduces the chances of marines winning to <10% But even worse: A week or so ago people began to realize, that >90% of marines are utterly unable to deal with cloak. Since that moment marines often times get raped so hard it is not even funny if you are alien... I just left a game where aliens had the whole map and 3 hives from beginning (alien Khamm had no interest in cafeteria) while 8 of 10 marines constantly tired to push east wing. No need to say that this attempt failed hopelessly at the edge of marine base observatory range...
I know there's not that much that can be done to prevent people from playing bad. I also know it's a cliche to state that the success of NS2(or any formerly "underground" game) ruins the game experiance.
But I really strongly believe that there should be some kind of actions taken to improve the experiance of the people that play on public servers with complete strangers (I dare to say thats 99% of all paying customers)
Why not actually change certain elements on "rookie" servers that are balanced on a competitive/experianced level but are really OP on Pubs right now ??
I know cloak is not op. I know it wasn't in NS1. I know that it is easy to counter. Nevertheless it is hopelessly imbalanced on new players. Why not make cloaked aliens on rookie servers for example only 80% Transparent while moving and 95% while not moving? Why not decrease Onos HP on rookie servers? As aliens have way more rts as they should, there are too many onos.
I think there are many small changes that could drastically change the balance of the current game.
I really believe that it would be worth the try to make a "beginner" NS2 on rookie servers so that new players can learn and at the same time experiance what a ###### awesome game NS2 is. I don't think they get that chance at the moment at all. As the majority of rookies will improve it will be easy to slowly change the "rookie NS2" towards the "real deal" so that in a year or so there is no rookie version anymore. I don't think the occasinal noob or 10 or 20% of games ###### up because of very unfair teams kill the game. But 95% of ###### up, boring games sure do.
<!--quoteo(post=2032967:date=Nov 23 2012, 08:04 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Nov 23 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2032967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know cloak is not op. I know it wasn't in NS1. I know that it is easy to counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Saved me the trouble of writing all that out!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, that opinion is still very much incorrect in many aspects and one of my previous posts already answered to that.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what it is we think L4D2 competitive mods really did for us.
No they don't. You're just doing it wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the most pointless post on this thread, and just plain wrong, look at stats, and maybe if you do say something like that, you should back it up with fact.
The camo is over-powered right now, and I say this because there is no way a marine can spot unless near an Obs, or scanning. Scanning takes 3 res, and if you have to do it often, that will be a factor in how much res you can use for other things, especially considering marines are much more dependent on res nodes then aliens.
The camo is over-powered right now, and I say this because there is no way a marine can spot unless near an Obs, or scanning. Scanning takes 3 res, and if you have to do it often, that will be a factor in how much res you can use for other things, especially considering marines are much more dependent on res nodes then aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's your opinion, but my opinion is that camo is fine. if aliens are visible while moving, it makes it a useless upgrade because you can only 'camo' yourself from utter buffoons.
btw the most effective counter to camo is probably mines.
when a skulk hits a mine he is uncloaked or dead, if you stand around mines then you're practically invincible to skulks.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what it is we think L4D2 competitive mods really did for us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's really not, I've got years of tournament data and testing to back my observations up. Data from pubs is irrelevant as wild gaps in skill determine the outcome of games much more than balance, and as such no consistent observations can be made. In pubs game balance affects the outcome of the game much less, this is true of all games. In games where both sides knew what they were doing playing a vanilla config matches were determined by one or two plays out of over an hour of gameplay. One team could be competent but obviously less skill than the other and still keep the game close and even win because of direct balance being poor, causing the game to be artificially close. If you propose we just play with numbers to make the game look balanced in a 2 round system, this does nothing to change the fact that very little of the gameplay would be decisive toward the outcome, and as such would be a very poor model for showing which team actually played better.
Obviously you're free to have your own opinion, but it is not a very well informed or tested one and is contrary to the entire existence of what competitive L4D is, and what this game needs to be competitive. Direct balance is absolutely a necessity and cannot be glossed over by a scoring change or a 2 round system.
In pubs game balance affects the outcome of the game much less, this is true of all games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a heavy user of Promod in clan servers and many others, plus around 1200 hours in L4D2, I think I can be as entitled as anyone to an accurate opinion. Your attitude at dismissing other opinions on the false assumption you are the only one that knows best sounds a bit petty to be honest, and I hope we do not reduce this discussion to a "pissing contest". But worry not, I ll not hold that against you! :D
To the risk of protracting this discusison more than necessary I d like to highlight the obvious contradiction in your base premise quoted above.
If balance in pub games were irrelevant as you say then we would not be having this conversation. There seems to be an alleged unease in the pub scene in NS2 "backed up" by a good number of threads here all pointing towards Aliens being slightly OP in one way or another and by Developers actually churning out builds to try and correct those. If balance affected so little in pub games as you suggest, then all the complaining you can see all over the forum would not exist.
Alas that is not the case. Or at least it does not seem to be the case.
Pub games are completely relevant. The complaints seem to be primarily about pub games. And hence L4D2 pub games are a completely relevant topic to discuss as reference. And as such, and precisely because the difference in gamer´s skills are so diverse in Pub gaming, the Versus switch solution in L4D2 takes care of the pub problem brilliantly.
That notwithstanding I shall indulge you in discussing your competitive play strawman here for a minute. Promod, and other competitive mods, main improvements to the competitive scene are the revamped scoring system which granted points not only for covered ground but also for health remaining (as in the original LFD), and the plugins to balance the campaign designs so to prevent random events (random hordes, different alarm cars, course % placement for witches... you name it) that were affecting differently each team as they switch race in vanilla versus. None of these has to do with race balance per se.
The rest of the other plug ins in the mod that afect actual race balance (weapons available, tank frustration times, throwable availability, god frames, bhoping and many others) havent even got close to real race balancing.... 13 or 14 Promod versions churned out to date attest to that. In some cases some of those changes were actually favouring Survivors! No. The magic in L4D2 was and still is based around the race switch in versus. Any imbalances that remain (and those are a lot) are completely cancelled out by the fact that now you have no or little random events that affect in different ways each team coupled with the fact the scoring system is now that much more accurate to tell skill differences. It is not the race balance that matters primarily to establish a fair winner. In L4D2 race balance or lack thereof only matters from a purely "fun and personal taste" point of view (we veterans are very nitpicky) but it does not influence the appointment of the right winner. And that is primarily thanks to the versus switch.
Put it in another way: If Promod or any of the comp mods were perfectly balancing Survivors and Special Infected as you suggest (which they still dont, and by far), then L4D2 competitive play would not need to play a Versus switch at all. A mirrored Versus would not be needed. Alas the race switch is still a very much intrinsic part of competitive gaming precisely to make sure any remaining unbalances in the races are completely cancelled thanks to the mirror nature of the versus switch. No one in the competitive scene, as far as I know, has ever suggested to get rid of the Versus switch. The race switch system is probably about the only thing the competitive community has not disagreed about.
A Race switch is a good thing in assymetric games as demonstrated not only by L4D2 but by a several decades long practice of mirror games in the traditional Wargame community going back to the 60´s.
Look, I understand that many NS2 gamers and veterans here would love to have an assymetric but also perfectly balanced races; and that is great if it can be achieved. I have no qualms with that. But in one thing at least I hope we agree. Asuming pub game Aliens are indeed somewhat OP then either we get developers or modders to balance the races for good or, failing that, we find alternatives to that holy grail of perfect balancing. Personally? I have seen too many game communities bickering bitter and endlesly about balance to realize that even after a good number of balancing changes/improvements these discussions have a fair chance to never end. There will always be someone who comes up with the latest lame [insert your favourite lifeform/marine unit] rush that has no counter. Versus race switch and a reasonable scoring system allow you to stop that nonsense in pub.
Versus switch is a perfectly valid and proved way to make Pub games work lacking a perfect balance to the races. You dont see "[Special Infected or Survivors] are OP in Versus mode" threads in any of the usual L4D2 pub forums or Steam as often as you do here... and that with a much higher race imbalance in L4D2 pub vanilla mind you! There is a very good reason for that: There is no Versus switch mode in NS2 pub gaming.
Also, our very own NS2 competitive scene sports some form of mirror race switch games for each team encounter already in many of the recent tourneys. Why not apply the same logic to the pub scene via inbuilt code? The game has already built in all the basic for a decent scoring system that can surely be improved with a few tweaks. Make it optional and see how it goes, at least until developers find the right balance or modders create balance mods that work?
When NS2 fnally got release I was just ###### happy, called in sick at work for 1 week and did not much else than to sleep and play NS2.
But right now the game experiance for me is just crappy to be honest.
After release I played these thriller rounds where my team and me struggled HARD for what felt like 2 hours until we were able to secure the win or maybe lost. It did not matter ... I rarely had so much fun with any game winning as I had with some NS2 losses.
But now some time after release it just sucks. I play like 3-6 games every evening when I get home and for the last 1-2 weeks it ALWAYS was the same:
Either Marines roflstomp aliens and win within 10 minutes (pretty much as satifsying as bunker rushes in SC2) or -and thats the case in like 80-90% of the games- aliens just win. It literally is known from the start of the game that aliens will win.
Most game are: Aliens take 4 rts and 2 hives uncontestet(leading to a 7-3 rt situation soon after) which reduces the chances of marines winning to <10%
But even worse: A week or so ago people began to realize, that >90% of marines are utterly unable to deal with cloak. Since that moment marines often times get raped so hard it is not even funny if you are alien... I just left a game where aliens had the whole map and 3 hives from beginning (alien Khamm had no interest in cafeteria) while 8 of 10 marines constantly tired to push east wing. No need to say that this attempt failed hopelessly at the edge of marine base observatory range...
I know there's not that much that can be done to prevent people from playing bad.
I also know it's a cliche to state that the success of NS2(or any formerly "underground" game) ruins the game experiance.
But I really strongly believe that there should be some kind of actions taken to improve the experiance of the people that play on public servers with complete strangers (I dare to say thats 99% of all paying customers)
Why not actually change certain elements on "rookie" servers that are balanced on a competitive/experianced level but are really OP on Pubs right now ??
I know cloak is not op. I know it wasn't in NS1. I know that it is easy to counter.
Nevertheless it is hopelessly imbalanced on new players. Why not make cloaked aliens on rookie servers for example only 80% Transparent while moving and 95% while not moving?
Why not decrease Onos HP on rookie servers? As aliens have way more rts as they should, there are too many onos.
I think there are many small changes that could drastically change the balance of the current game.
I really believe that it would be worth the try to make a "beginner" NS2 on rookie servers so that new players can learn and at the same time experiance what a ###### awesome game NS2 is. I don't think they get that chance at the moment at all.
As the majority of rookies will improve it will be easy to slowly change the "rookie NS2" towards the "real deal" so that in a year or so there is no rookie version anymore.
I don't think the occasinal noob or 10 or 20% of games ###### up because of very unfair teams kill the game. But 95% of ###### up, boring games sure do.
Elaborate, please.