"Autoteambalance"

Omega_K2

<div class="IPBDescription">Remove it</div>I don't know whether this is a server mod or offical by uwe, either way, it's the most retarded thing I've ever seen to address such a problem.

-It does not help balance teams. Never.
-It makes already lost rounds longer because the guys in the winning team can't spawn and some guys on the loosing team refuse to RR.
-It stops pres flow
-It can ###### up strategy completly:
-- Ex 1: Died defending a pg, in a 10v8 game you still have to wait forever because of the autoteambalance, but you are the only one who can phase in time said pg.
-- Ex 2: Hopped out as com to help defending, died and you can't get back in because you wait to spawn (Trolololo)
-Possibly the worst way to implement this, annoying as ###### and not useful at all. Being contraproductive even.

lwf

I think it's a really clever way to implement team balance. I can see how "..making lost rounds longer.." could be a problem but in practice I have yet to see it (when the 40% team difference win condition is not turned off).

ScardyBob

Both autoteambalance and autoconcede are official NS2 features. However, they are server-side options so server ops can enable/disable/change the conditions all they want. Personally, I tried to tweak the settings such that in most cases, autoconcede would trigger before autoteambalance (my serverconfig.json is below, with the tweaks for a 20player server).
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->{
    "settings":
    {
    "rookie_friendly": false,
    "end_round_on_team_unbalance": 0.5,
        "auto_team_balance":
        {
            "enabled_on_unbalance_amount": 5,
            "enabled_after_seconds": 10
        }
    },
    "tags": [ "ns2" ]
}<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->

Runteh

I love the way playtesters keep saying 'change this server setting'.

Me: "Why can't we have randomall on servers, as AFKers are a pain at the start of games?"

Playtester answer: "You can use the server command."

Some guy: "Why is autobalance so bad?"

Playtester: "Change the server settings."

We can't hack the server guys....................................................

:|

I can see where the OP is coming from, but this is actually the best auto-balance system I have come across. It just queues marines who die so that the teams are even, and spawns you when the next player dies.

unkind

better than being switched, until you come up with a better idea stfu?

KaptajnKLO

I would much rather have this feature than go back and have teams with 2 or 3 players more!

Swiftspear

I highly highly disagree with you OP. It's the perfect solution to imbalance. It doesn't force anyone to team switch, but at the same time it does keep the teams balanced.

Know pain

This came up a bit ago:

<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=122059&hl=auto+balance" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...hl=auto+balance</a>

Imbalanxd

Brilliant and smart solution. OP is mad, and I'm going to attribute it to him being bad.

Scythe

<!--quoteo(post=2027316:date=Nov 18 2012, 09:53 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 18 2012, 09:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I highly highly disagree with you OP. It's the perfect solution to imbalance. It doesn't force anyone to team switch, but at the same time it does keep the teams balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yep. OP is a classic example of misdirected righteous anger. Think it through, Omega. You complain about your "strategy" being compromised by autoteambalance, without giving a thought to the alien team. What grand strategy do you need to overcome a team who's two players down?

The only problem with autoteambalance is that it highlights how much of a nearsighted, selfish twerp you can be when your team is winning and the other team starts to quit.

I would suggest a system that conceeds the match upon a majority of the alien team typing "gg".

--Scythe--

{GGs} Chicken

It's a pretty bad way of balance, don't know why they even added it in. It's extremely frustrating and boring to sit dead for 1 or 2 minutes because the other team's players have rage quit. Not to mention it doesn't really help at all. The teams are almost always unbalanced because one team is clearly losing or getting ###### on, which only frustrates players and prolongs the inevitable loss for the raging team.

I guess the whole idea for the system working was, "Let's frustrate the ###### out of players until they decide to switch to the team that has been losing and will almost surely lose!"

unkind

literally the only way to not sound retarded when you guys say you hate this system is to come up with a better one (that isn't actually switching people).

tarquinbb

so you'd rather the game plucked a player from the overloaded team at random and dumped them onto the undermanned team? because the need for an auto balance system is irrefutable, you can't just put it down to people being 'good sports'... check any other game - it hardly ever happens.

lol... the current system obviously isn't faultless - but it's the best you can hope for.

Imbalanxd

<!--quoteo(post=2027372:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:51 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Nov 18 2012, 02:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a pretty bad way of balance, don't know why they even added it in. It's extremely frustrating and boring to sit dead for 1 or 2 minutes because the other team's players have rage quit. Not to mention it doesn't really help at all. The teams are almost always unbalanced because one team is clearly losing or getting ###### on, which only frustrates players and prolongs the inevitable loss for the raging team.

I guess the whole idea for the system working was, "Let's frustrate the ###### out of players until they decide to switch to the team that has been losing and will almost surely lose!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Or maybe it was in an attempt to... I don't know... focus on saving the games that aren't already lost. You know, instead of doing absolutely nothing?

I mean really. Some people just like to complain about anything they can find. Even if they have to create conspiracy theories to do it. Stop being so damn bitter.

IronHorse

Then whats your suggestion, Chicken?

<i>Auto switch a player over? </i>
That will enrage people further not playing with their friends and destroy tactics WAY more. "Hey guys i was just on aliens and guess what.."
<i>Just remove it and allow imbalanced teams that never get adjusted?</i>
That ruined games more often than not and i doubt anyone would advocate imbalanced teams in any scenario.

I have come to like this method after fighting it initially, when I myself couldn't think of a better way... i only dislike the description (which has been changed for future patches)
More so lately since the higher player base means more ppl join to fill the spots.

elodea

Well you only ever get auto team balance kicking in when people f4/quit. More often than not, people f4 on a lost or boring game, OP has legit point. This isn't about being a selfish twerp at all. As for "you only need to change server settings", the vast majority of servers are UWE official and are neither admined nor tweaked to relieve the frustration auto team balance vs auto concede causes.

When it comes to people quitting midgame for other reasons, i honestly think forced player switching is a better solution. The current auto team balance is really abusable beyond just creating server-wide furstration e.g. every alien f4's except for one onos (and quickly rejoin fast enough to prevent auto concede)

*<!--QuoteBegin-Ironhorse+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That will enrage people further not playing with their friends and destroy tactics WAY more. "Hey guys i was just on aliens and guess what.."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right. That's an issue with forced switching, but i think with a problem like auto team balance, its the lesser of all evils. Hopefully the game is fun enough that both teams are enjoyable to play. Pres gets saved with team switches now doesn't it?

Hyperforms

It's a whole hell of a lot better than getting switched. Team Fortress 2 is unplayable because of this... you either join the losing team or you get switched to it because of everybody rage quitting.

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=2027266:date=Nov 17 2012, 02:41 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 17 2012, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love the way playtesters keep saying 'change this server setting'.

Me: "Why can't we have randomall on servers, as AFKers are a pain at the start of games?"

Playtester answer: "You can use the server command."

Some guy: "Why is autobalance so bad?"

Playtester: "Change the server settings."

We can't hack the server guys....................................................

:|<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Play on different servers then. PTers or UWE aren't responsible for how people run their servers (outside of the official UWE ones) and that's exactly how it should be. If you found the setting/options poor on a server, there are plenty of alternatives.

<!--quoteo(post=2027390:date=Nov 17 2012, 05:16 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 17 2012, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When it comes to people quitting midgame for other reasons, i honestly think forced player switching is a better solution. The current auto team balance is really abusable beyond just creating server-wide furstration e.g. every alien f4's except for one onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you actually seen this tactic used in a match? It's actually a lot more difficult to pull off successfully than one would think since it requires to have killed off all marines except for about 3-4, the entire alien team besides the onos to RR, and the onos to solo what is likely w3/a3 marines. That's a lot more coordination and skill than I see in the vast majority of pubs I've played.

elodea

<!--quoteo(post=2027400:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:27 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Nov 18 2012, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you actually seen this tactic used in a match? It's actually a lot more difficult to pull off successfully than one would think since it requires to have killed off all marines except for about 3-4, the entire alien team besides the onos to RR, and the onos to solo what is likely w3/a3 marines. That's a lot more coordination and skill than I see in the vast majority of pubs I've played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea it takes co-ordination but so does anything in ns2 - part of the reason no-one does this is because of unawareness or good sportsmanship (in the case of the latter, we don't need auto team balance at all). If history has anything to learn from, loopholes are always exploited - i'm just pointing out a systematic flaw in the system that can be abused by anyone who wants to. Can see goons/something awful doing this if they ever bothered to play the game in the organized manner they usually do.

In the end, both the currrent auto team balance and forced team switching end up doing the same thing - only the current has more frustration, an abusable system, and essentially force switches the 'winning team' to rr/spec.

IronHorse

Keeping track of those who f4 after X amount of time in a round, as counting as still on their previous team would remove the frustration and exploitation, allow the game to end sooner, more of a chance of autoconcede and yet still allows a legitimate "quit the server" player to cause auto team balance until a new player joins.

This would make those who <i>early </i>f4 abusively or selfishly be more of a harm to their team though, but hopefully that would cause a cultural discouragement of it.

|R18|Zerg

Its annoying but highly successful, I either can't wait and swap teams to balance them, or I wait and my side doesnt get the player advantage.


Seems working as intended.

Rokiyo

<!--quoteo(post=2027419:date=Nov 18 2012, 11:44 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 18 2012, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keeping track of those who f4 after X amount of time in a round, as counting as still on their previous team would remove the frustration and exploitation, allow the game to end sooner, more of a chance of autoconcede and yet still allows a legitimate "quit the server" player to cause auto team balance until a new player joins.

This would make those who <i>early </i>f4 abusively or selfishly be more of a harm to their team though, but hopefully that would cause a cultural discouragement of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this would be better handled by tweaking auto-concede to scale better with server size.

Calling it at 6 vs 3 makes sense. Waiting until it's 12 vs 6 on a large server might be leaving it too long (because until then, it's up to 5 players effectively stuck in spectator mode).

Also, changing auto-team-balance to greatly slow spawning to instead of outright stopping it may also make it more workable on larger servers.

Omega_K2

<!--quoteo(post=2027372:date=Nov 18 2012, 01:51 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Nov 18 2012, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a pretty bad way of balance, don't know why they even added it in. It's extremely frustrating and boring to sit dead for 1 or 2 minutes because the other team's players have rage quit. Not to mention it doesn't really help at all. The teams are almost always unbalanced because one team is clearly losing or getting ###### on, which only frustrates players and prolongs the inevitable loss for the raging team.

I guess the whole idea for the system working was, "Let's frustrate the ###### out of players until they decide to switch to the team that has been losing and will almost surely lose!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Exactly. Not to mention the only thing it does is evening the player numbers (if you are lucky and people switch, which almost never happens). The game doesn't get more skill balanced.

Even outside of RQ situations, it doesn't do much. Unbalanced teams due to "normal" leavers, will even out thoughout the match. At some point it may be 7v9 and at another 9v7, new people join and will join the team with less players obviously. That's your "teambalance" right there, because that's the only team new people can join. And it worked very well thoughout the beta and on the servers that do not have team balance. The only thing this system adds is frustration.

For "too" unfair situations the autoconcede kicks in, which is the best option (ending an already lost game! - your "gg" vote right there).

Also, isn't it a bit unfair to <b>punish</b> the people playing the entire round for their team because the people on the other team deceided to ###### their team over and just leave (in terms RQ)?


Also, I didn't say replace it with another system that is more broken then anything else. I said remove it.

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=2027408:date=Nov 17 2012, 05:36 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 17 2012, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yea it takes co-ordination but so does anything in ns2 - part of the reason no-one does this is because of unawareness or good sportsmanship (in the case of the latter, we don't need auto team balance at all). If history has anything to learn from, loopholes are always exploited - i'm just pointing out a systematic flaw in the system that can be abused by anyone who wants to. Can see goons/something awful doing this if they ever bothered to play the game in the organized manner they usually do.

In the end, both the currrent auto team balance and forced team switching end up doing the same thing - only the current has more frustration, an abusable system, and essentially force switches the 'winning team' to rr/spec.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is abusable, but that's not basis for removing it unless it is being abused regularly. Comm recycling the base is abusable, but that doesn't mean recycling should be removed. Also, if people try to exploit it, people on the stacked team can and probably will change sides to counter. Unless its a server full of goonsquad griefing themselves, I just don't see it happening much, if at all.

wulf

Agreed I posted a similar thread.

<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124605" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124605</a>

Autobalance is easily trolled also.

fanatic

The current autobalance... is pretty much impossible to argue for. The cons massively outweigh the pros.