@Foxy it seems that it got a bit out of control and ended in some offtopic discussions cause ppl confused arguments supporting other ppls statements as content of these statements. at least that's what it seems to be here for me.
the original point was about wether or not to publish gathered evidence of cheating and wether or not this evidence is reliable at all
or maybe it's not cause my post on that got completly ignored.
what @dePARA stated and what i can totaly agree on is that ppl tend to be hastily about calling others who rek them cheaters (i remember getting banned at least once a day for "cheating" back when playin bf3 because these servers were stacked with ppl runin round the map like braindead and admin who thought everyone could frag them over and over again in their "every live the same extreme obvious" hiding spot)
what @purephoenix IMHO doesn't seem to see there is that nobody said that there is no cheaters but that actual cheaters are rather rare (percentage of playerbase wise) especially in games ppl have to pay for
warping for example can be caused by bad internet connections causing package loss (played on servers where suddenly 15% package loss apeared and i started to warp) of cause it's shit to play vs that but to cry out for a cheater everytime that happens is a bit overreacting. but i admit that I have faced obvious rate hackers in ns2 b4 (example: i was marine commander on veil meding one of my marines in westjunction engaged by a lerk. lerk movement was totaly fluent on the map. the moment a second marine came around the corner with a sg and shot this lerk starts to warp over the map like crazy and was only to be seen on 3 spots on the map instead of a fluent movement. this was seen and called out by a friend of mine who happened to be in spec at that moment and the players fighting that lerk aswell so it was not only a diplay error on the map)
there is cheaters of many kind (wallhack, aimassist, fov indication, triggerbots, u name it) and just recently one of them got baned from NSL because they gathered evidence BEHIND HIS BACK without giving him the slightest hint that he is under surveilance. would he have known that he was under surveilance he would probably never have been caught.
remember: even though these guys cheat doesn't mean they are totaly dumb so warning them by publishing shit will just make them alarmed and makes it harder for authorities to gather evidence.
That is definitely more my point, @Absurdon .
I record every match now in those games. Never felt the compulsion to do it in other games except perhaps a simple demo. I didn't even realise until my boss (net cafe owner) pointed it out that demos worked with the LFTHook etc so you could easily tell if they're pre-aiming because you *also* had wallhack at the time of demo viewing.
All you needed to do once steam/1.6 came out, was create a non-vac dedicated server and loopback-connect to it with a different port first.
Now the problem with hacks is, even the hacker themselves can stream live video and appear legit.
If a game is opengl, the programmer simply direct3d and vice versa.
When you set up your screen recorder/streaming app like OBS you specify *only* the game app itself.
That way, the textual overlay, boxes etc created by the hack don't even show up on the streamed footage.
Only injected hacks seem be catchable anymore.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
So whats the point of this discussion?
As i said, there cheaters out there. There in every game more or less. Im sure you would find them in online solitaire also.
There also a few cheaters in NS2, but im sure you can count them with one hand.
I have a simple solution for your cheater-paranoia, dont play online games.
Did you even watch my Warface video?
90% of my rounds end in the same or similiar manner.
Ah and btw. im sure you already found some suspicious moments in it, right?
And i have another tip for you even it looks like you are a pro when it comes to cheats.
Fairfight is behaviour based, so it doesnt check the modified files on your HDD.
It take some time, but in the end you get banned automatic.
Now the problem with hacks is, even the hacker themselves can stream live video and appear legit.
Yep.. You could spend hours and hours recording gameplay of a hacker and most people who watch it will say it's legit... Even some of the most blatantly obvious stuff gets written off by luck, lag, or just skill..
So whats the point of this discussion?
As i said, there cheaters out there. There in every game more or less. Im sure you would find them in online solitaire also.
There also a few cheaters in NS2, but im sure you can count them with one hand.
I have a simple solution for your cheater-paranoia, dont play online games.
While I don't agree with the number of cheaters dePARA believes there are in NS2 ( I imagine it's much, much more than just a "handful" - IMO anyone with a hive score over 3k is undoubtedly cheating) I do agree that making topics and discussing the issue does absolutely nothing to resolve anything. This is a 3 year old topic, and the same concerns over cheating that were expressed 3 years ago still exist today.
The problem is you can't fix cheating in online gaming. It's not possible. It's a little easier to stop on consoles, but on the PC it's absolutely impossible. Even a 24 hour moderated server (as unlikely as that would be) has no real 100% way of verifying a cheater besides watching them a bit in spec and going "eh, yea he's probably cheating". There is no magic silver-bullet to identifying cheaters, so every conversation about cheating reduces to "You're cheating!!" retorted with "No I"m not!!" (see Peyton Manning for a real life example).
The only solution is to do as dePARA recommends: Quit playing online games. I still play online PC games, but just co-op ones. Sure, people sometimes cheat, but the incentive to do so is magnitudes lower than in a PvP game.
Videos don't prove anything, any file can be doctored.
Oh yeah, i'm going to doctor a video while i'm uploading it 8)
This is the problem with peoples' logic and analysis skills these days;They are intellectually LAZY.
If i record a 5 min video and upload it within 2 seconds, there's NO FRIGGING TIME to modify it before it's online.
E.g; You are WRONG and too lazy to even think about the possibility you may be wrong.
Editting footage requires time; The kind of time you DO NOT GET when you upload the footage immediately (Or live stream, if you don't live in the shithole known as Australia and have 30 year outdated upload speeds)
This is a 3 year old topic, and the same concerns over cheating that were expressed 3 years ago still exist today.
The problem is you can't fix cheating in online gaming. It's not possible. It's a little easier to stop on consoles, but on the PC it's absolutely impossible. Even a 24 hour moderated server (as unlikely as that would be) has no real 100% way of verifying a cheater besides watching them a bit in spec and going "eh, yea he's probably cheating". There is no magic silver-bullet to identifying cheaters,
100% wrong. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.
Stopping cheating is as simple as three steps;
1. Do a client-side memory check of the space <Game.exe> requires.
2. Do a quick file & process scan to ensure nothing has been modified client-side OUTSIDE OF <game.exe> (Not permissable by law unless you put in the EULA)
3. Add in a client-server CRC handshake to ensure the client can't be spoofed and trick the server into thinking 1 & 2 have been done. By default, boot/kick clients that can't pass #3.
Done. It's that simple it'd take about 10 minutes to code, because C-D, WON and other attempts have been doing this for LITERALLY up to 20 years.
And the last comment comes from one who is only playing gorge and his only "skill" is:
Waiting in a vent near base to perform a "sneaky bilerush"
Everyone else who is able to kill enemys is a cheater for sure *facepalm*
@dePARA Do you *contribute* to this thread?
Anything?
Or are you just here to troll?
Because i invented trolling. Literally. On IRC, years before NS became a mod even.
It was never just for irritating people 'for the sake of it', it's a social engineering tool.
And as such, obvious trolls are outright retards.
You are cheating cause you want to prove that others are cheating?
Who is the retard here.
Its the same excuse like all the others great storys:
"I was not not at home and my brother was using my account", blabla
The simple fact is: You are a dumb cheater.
And what makes is even worse is that you whining about cheaters while you using cheats.
How dumb is this?
And btw, you havent answered my question yet after your profound analyse about how to manipulate streams.
Ah and btw. im sure you already found some suspicious moments in it, right?
You are cheating cause you want to prove that others are cheating?
Who is the retard here.
Its the same excuse like all the others great storys:
"I was not not at home and my brother was using my account", blabla
The simple fact is: You are a dumb cheater.
And what makes is even worse is that you whining about cheaters while you using cheats.
How dumb is this?
And btw, you havent answered my question yet after your profound analyse about how to manipulate streams.
Ah and btw. im sure you already found some suspicious moments in it, right?
1. Moot point. I said i don't usually cheat (over 99.99% of matches).
2. You are worse, because you're trying to bm a guy for proving hacks exist and work flawlessly.
3. I don't need to answer your question - YOU however DO need to provide a link that WORKS if you want me analysing anything.
The funny thing about his one is, there was a cheater in the other team.
7% accuracy in the end @ 58 kills.
And you can see multiple times that his aimbot snaps to the wall on the enemy behind it. (@ 5:40 and 7:25 for example)
His low accuracy was the result (shooting nonstop into´walls)
So he was running around brainless and sprays down every1 with his hack.
But the really sad thing was the result of this round, this tells much about the players there.
And thats why NS2 should never go F2P.
You dont want these braindead people in a complex game like NS2.
Ah and btw. i want you to watch this video also.
Awesome channel from an Quake veteran who is tesing gaming mice and stuff.
There you can see that are players out there which are FAR above others skillwise. (he perfomring really sick rocketjumps)
And another one from Friberg, one of the best CS:Go players.
If you own CS:Go do what he describe and share your result here.
I was testing it and this opened my eyes about the HUGE skilldifference i have compared to the pro players.
Im hitting around 50 at this insane speed, he 80 up to 90.
Why do i even care? Quit wasting people times' with off-topic rubbish.
Hacks are easy to prove; Fact.
Your opinion on the matter is irrelevant. Fact.
Your CS;GO training video still leaves a 0.75s window to re-aim and fire. Fact.
We are talking about INHUMANELY fast reactions here e.g under .15
Get with the program and on-topic or i'm going to start reporting your posts for trolling.
The stupidity of F2P players is not part of the topic; Neither is whether haccusations are Right or Wrong at the time.
The question is why they're considered 'bad' when hacking has become so blatant.
Sure there's the position that the cheater can be caught unaware.
But I'm reporting these hackers in the f2p games and they never get banned, they're there a week+ later, still aimbotting.
So the community needs to 'make some noise' to get the publisher to stop slacking off and actually FIX it.
I've had to change my view on this after taking ~5 year break from FPS and now it's super obvious to me how many people legitimately hack these days. Especially on F2P games like Ghost Recon Phantoms, Warface etc
My answer was:
Yes, Warface (only as a example) like EVERY online game has cheaters but not more or less than other games. But is has many many whiny kids who cry about cheaters after every death.
And i showed you 2 video examples.
So you are here as a modern robin hood who is going to prove the fact that NS2 has cheaters?
Your posts sound like a warning "Beware, im playing this now and i catch you ALL"
You talking about facts nontop.
How about accepting the fact that EVERY online game has cheater.
And if you cant stand this fact, dont play online games.
Did i mention paranoia before?
You want to hear another fact?
I dont care about the few cheaters i met in games. In an pub environment its a bit annoying, thats all.
Change server, ask the admin to ban him. Thats it.
And im not sure who are more annoying to me, the few cheaters or paranoia people like you who are calling the end of the world after every death.
Report the results of your witchhunt to tech-support@unknownworlds.com like mentioned in the 1st post and leave us alone with your "cheaters everywhere" paranoia please.
I dont care about the few cheaters i met in games. In an pub environment its a bit annoying, thats all.
Change server, ask the admin to ban him. Thats it.
blah blah blah
Report the results of your witchhunt to tech-support@unknownworlds.com like mentioned in the 1st post and leave us alone with your "cheaters everywhere" paranoia please.
Finally. That is an actual opinion. See a cause, form an action plan.
Whether there's cheaters in a game you don't even play (or not) is not an opinion, it's arrogant drivel.
Comments
the original point was about wether or not to publish gathered evidence of cheating and wether or not this evidence is reliable at all
or maybe it's not cause my post on that got completly ignored.
what @dePARA stated and what i can totaly agree on is that ppl tend to be hastily about calling others who rek them cheaters (i remember getting banned at least once a day for "cheating" back when playin bf3 because these servers were stacked with ppl runin round the map like braindead and admin who thought everyone could frag them over and over again in their "every live the same extreme obvious" hiding spot)
what @purephoenix IMHO doesn't seem to see there is that nobody said that there is no cheaters but that actual cheaters are rather rare (percentage of playerbase wise) especially in games ppl have to pay for
warping for example can be caused by bad internet connections causing package loss (played on servers where suddenly 15% package loss apeared and i started to warp) of cause it's shit to play vs that but to cry out for a cheater everytime that happens is a bit overreacting. but i admit that I have faced obvious rate hackers in ns2 b4 (example: i was marine commander on veil meding one of my marines in westjunction engaged by a lerk. lerk movement was totaly fluent on the map. the moment a second marine came around the corner with a sg and shot this lerk starts to warp over the map like crazy and was only to be seen on 3 spots on the map instead of a fluent movement. this was seen and called out by a friend of mine who happened to be in spec at that moment and the players fighting that lerk aswell so it was not only a diplay error on the map)
there is cheaters of many kind (wallhack, aimassist, fov indication, triggerbots, u name it) and just recently one of them got baned from NSL because they gathered evidence BEHIND HIS BACK without giving him the slightest hint that he is under surveilance. would he have known that he was under surveilance he would probably never have been caught.
remember: even though these guys cheat doesn't mean they are totaly dumb so warning them by publishing shit will just make them alarmed and makes it harder for authorities to gather evidence.
I record every match now in those games. Never felt the compulsion to do it in other games except perhaps a simple demo. I didn't even realise until my boss (net cafe owner) pointed it out that demos worked with the LFTHook etc so you could easily tell if they're pre-aiming because you *also* had wallhack at the time of demo viewing.
All you needed to do once steam/1.6 came out, was create a non-vac dedicated server and loopback-connect to it with a different port first.
Now the problem with hacks is, even the hacker themselves can stream live video and appear legit.
If a game is opengl, the programmer simply direct3d and vice versa.
When you set up your screen recorder/streaming app like OBS you specify *only* the game app itself.
That way, the textual overlay, boxes etc created by the hack don't even show up on the streamed footage.
Only injected hacks seem be catchable anymore.
As i said, there cheaters out there. There in every game more or less. Im sure you would find them in online solitaire also.
There also a few cheaters in NS2, but im sure you can count them with one hand.
I have a simple solution for your cheater-paranoia, dont play online games.
Did you even watch my Warface video?
90% of my rounds end in the same or similiar manner.
Ah and btw. im sure you already found some suspicious moments in it, right?
And i have another tip for you even it looks like you are a pro when it comes to cheats.
Fairfight is behaviour based, so it doesnt check the modified files on your HDD.
It take some time, but in the end you get banned automatic.
Yep.. You could spend hours and hours recording gameplay of a hacker and most people who watch it will say it's legit... Even some of the most blatantly obvious stuff gets written off by luck, lag, or just skill..
While I don't agree with the number of cheaters dePARA believes there are in NS2 ( I imagine it's much, much more than just a "handful" - IMO anyone with a hive score over 3k is undoubtedly cheating) I do agree that making topics and discussing the issue does absolutely nothing to resolve anything. This is a 3 year old topic, and the same concerns over cheating that were expressed 3 years ago still exist today.
The problem is you can't fix cheating in online gaming. It's not possible. It's a little easier to stop on consoles, but on the PC it's absolutely impossible. Even a 24 hour moderated server (as unlikely as that would be) has no real 100% way of verifying a cheater besides watching them a bit in spec and going "eh, yea he's probably cheating". There is no magic silver-bullet to identifying cheaters, so every conversation about cheating reduces to "You're cheating!!" retorted with "No I"m not!!" (see Peyton Manning for a real life example).
The only solution is to do as dePARA recommends: Quit playing online games. I still play online PC games, but just co-op ones. Sure, people sometimes cheat, but the incentive to do so is magnitudes lower than in a PvP game.
I can't even think of a way to express my frustration at this statement.
Oh yeah, i'm going to doctor a video while i'm uploading it 8)
This is the problem with peoples' logic and analysis skills these days;They are intellectually LAZY.
If i record a 5 min video and upload it within 2 seconds, there's NO FRIGGING TIME to modify it before it's online.
E.g; You are WRONG and too lazy to even think about the possibility you may be wrong.
Editting footage requires time; The kind of time you DO NOT GET when you upload the footage immediately (Or live stream, if you don't live in the shithole known as Australia and have 30 year outdated upload speeds)
100% wrong.
ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.
Stopping cheating is as simple as three steps;
1. Do a client-side memory check of the space <Game.exe> requires.
2. Do a quick file & process scan to ensure nothing has been modified client-side OUTSIDE OF <game.exe> (Not permissable by law unless you put in the EULA)
3. Add in a client-server CRC handshake to ensure the client can't be spoofed and trick the server into thinking 1 & 2 have been done. By default, boot/kick clients that can't pass #3.
Done. It's that simple it'd take about 10 minutes to code, because C-D, WON and other attempts have been doing this for LITERALLY up to 20 years.
I hope stupidity isn't contagious.
Not to say everyone with high hive skill is hacking... But some of them most definitely are. (and it's so obvious if you spec them)
Waiting in a vent near base to perform a "sneaky bilerush"
Everyone else who is able to kill enemys is a cheater for sure *facepalm*
Are you for real?
@dePARA Do you *contribute* to this thread?
Anything?
Or are you just here to troll?
Because i invented trolling. Literally. On IRC, years before NS became a mod even.
It was never just for irritating people 'for the sake of it', it's a social engineering tool.
And as such, obvious trolls are outright retards.
You are cheating cause you want to prove that others are cheating?
Who is the retard here.
Its the same excuse like all the others great storys:
"I was not not at home and my brother was using my account", blabla
The simple fact is: You are a dumb cheater.
And what makes is even worse is that you whining about cheaters while you using cheats.
How dumb is this?
And btw, you havent answered my question yet after your profound analyse about how to manipulate streams.
1. Moot point. I said i don't usually cheat (over 99.99% of matches).
2. You are worse, because you're trying to bm a guy for proving hacks exist and work flawlessly.
3. I don't need to answer your question - YOU however DO need to provide a link that WORKS if you want me analysing anything.
Here is another example about how stupid ppl are in F2P games.
http://www.hitbox.tv/video/699881
The funny thing about his one is, there was a cheater in the other team.
7% accuracy in the end @ 58 kills.
And you can see multiple times that his aimbot snaps to the wall on the enemy behind it. (@ 5:40 and 7:25 for example)
His low accuracy was the result (shooting nonstop into´walls)
So he was running around brainless and sprays down every1 with his hack.
But the really sad thing was the result of this round, this tells much about the players there.
And thats why NS2 should never go F2P.
You dont want these braindead people in a complex game like NS2.
Ah and btw. i want you to watch this video also.
Awesome channel from an Quake veteran who is tesing gaming mice and stuff.
There you can see that are players out there which are FAR above others skillwise. (he perfomring really sick rocketjumps)
And another one from Friberg, one of the best CS:Go players.
If you own CS:Go do what he describe and share your result here.
I was testing it and this opened my eyes about the HUGE skilldifference i have compared to the pro players.
Im hitting around 50 at this insane speed, he 80 up to 90.
Why do i even care? Quit wasting people times' with off-topic rubbish.
Hacks are easy to prove; Fact.
Your opinion on the matter is irrelevant. Fact.
Your CS;GO training video still leaves a 0.75s window to re-aim and fire. Fact.
We are talking about INHUMANELY fast reactions here e.g under .15
Get with the program and on-topic or i'm going to start reporting your posts for trolling.
The stupidity of F2P players is not part of the topic; Neither is whether haccusations are Right or Wrong at the time.
The question is why they're considered 'bad' when hacking has become so blatant.
Sure there's the position that the cheater can be caught unaware.
But I'm reporting these hackers in the f2p games and they never get banned, they're there a week+ later, still aimbotting.
So the community needs to 'make some noise' to get the publisher to stop slacking off and actually FIX it.
My answer was:
Yes, Warface (only as a example) like EVERY online game has cheaters but not more or less than other games. But is has many many whiny kids who cry about cheaters after every death.
And i showed you 2 video examples.
So you are here as a modern robin hood who is going to prove the fact that NS2 has cheaters?
Your posts sound like a warning "Beware, im playing this now and i catch you ALL"
You talking about facts nontop.
How about accepting the fact that EVERY online game has cheater.
And if you cant stand this fact, dont play online games.
Did i mention paranoia before?
You want to hear another fact?
I dont care about the few cheaters i met in games. In an pub environment its a bit annoying, thats all.
Change server, ask the admin to ban him. Thats it.
And im not sure who are more annoying to me, the few cheaters or paranoia people like you who are calling the end of the world after every death.
Report the results of your witchhunt to tech-support@unknownworlds.com like mentioned in the 1st post and leave us alone with your "cheaters everywhere" paranoia please.
Finally. That is an actual opinion. See a cause, form an action plan.
Whether there's cheaters in a game you don't even play (or not) is not an opinion, it's arrogant drivel.