I don't get this. The armory wall was a response to ridiculous 6 minute onos rushes.
Just because some games got dragged out a bit because of walls, don't try to get UWE to change the whole game just because you can't think of a strategy to work around it.
As others have said Gorges are the best counter to them, and if they are turtling behind armories they no doubt have only the one res tower so they won't have money for infinite MACs or more armories.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Map design is part of the problem. Most of the corridors leading into tech points rooms are narrow and have low ceilings. That facilitates easy armory-walling and grenade spam turling.
I think each tech point room needs at least one entrance with a tall doorway.
<!--quoteo(post=2023927:date=Nov 14 2012, 08:14 PM:name=Afkz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afkz @ Nov 14 2012, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->walling is fine and has already been said its intended if there wasn't armories they would add walls. The problem isn't the walls are to hard to take down its that the macs make them to hard to take down alone the armories can die in 5 seconds np. We stop the macs we stop what people are complaining about. Armory walls should be there a small resource for a temporary stop to an onos every other unit gets by anyways and like i said no macs it dies fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was never said to be intended. Please provide evidence of this if you're going to make this claim.
If anything it's been said that it wasn't intended, during the most recent tournament final. Correct me if i'm wrong, but Charlie said it wasn't really intended, but that it was interesting to see the players repurpose the armory for this reason.
Sure, the attitudes by UWE seem to promote it's use in gameplay, but surely it was never intended.
edit: that part's wrong. During the UWE event, it's stated by Charlie that he thought about adding a wall structure, but knew players would eventually just use other structures for this purpose anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2023933:date=Nov 14 2012, 08:18 PM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Nov 14 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get this. The armory wall was a response to ridiculous 6 minute onos rushes.
Just because some games got dragged out a bit because of walls, don't try to get UWE to change the whole game just because you can't think of a strategy to work around it.
As others have said Gorges are the best counter to them, and if they are turtling behind armories they no doubt have only the one res tower so they won't have money for infinite MACs or more armories.
Sheesh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason it's prevelant is because of 6 minute onos rushes, but that's no reason it should be allowed.
Lets not forget when armory blocking (i.e. putting an armory in the path of a retreating onos) was rampant, before ghost structures was introduced. Many people said "it's not an exploit, cause onoses are OP at the moment and it's all we have against them"
Same with the power node blocking that still goes on today: "it's not an exploit. Power nodes are way too weak. It's unfair that the marines have one structure that kills everything yet alien hives are so strong"
To me this fits more closely with your "try to get UWE to change the whole game just because you can't think of a strategy to work around it". People resorting to exploits, circumventing the devs intentions, because they can't deal with the current state of gameplay.
The only reason I feel that armory blocking has gotten to the point where it's outright allowed is that the competitive community for ns2 was so small during the beta (and still needs to grow now). We had a small set of people deciding what should and shouldn't be allowed in competitive play. This small set of people seemed to like the idea that walling has a place in the game. So did the people casting the tourneys (who always seem to congratulate the strategic genius of this move and mention that it's fine cause armorys cost res). So as a result, we have armory walling... Something that's not all that different from command chair blocking in ns1, which was considered an exploit and banned from competitive play in ns1.
Don't even try suggesting the game will be more fun without it.. All you'll hear is "well how do I deal with 6 minute onos". The answer is: the ability to drop an onos egg at 6 minutes is the problem, not the removal of armory walling. Marines have more than enough tech to deal with onoses late game without having to resort to exploit blockades.
Sure, it can be left up to tournament organizers and server admins as to whether they allow armory blocking... But I feel the continued prevalence of them is going to cause the devs to balance the game in accordance to how it is played with the inclusion of armory blocking. This could mean a more powerful onos than there otherwise would have been, or an armory with less hit-points, or whatever. So basically, if you want to play a game without armory blocking, you're still playing one balanced FOR armory blocking
actually watch the finals again he said they were thinking of adding walls, but figured people would eventually use armory's for that purpose so they didn't add a separate wall building for the sole purpose of walling.
<!--quoteo(post=2024207:date=Nov 15 2012, 01:15 AM:name=Afkz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afkz @ Nov 15 2012, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->actually watch the finals again he said they were thinking of adding walls, but figured people would eventually use armory's for that purpose so they didn't add a separate wall building for the sole purpose of walling. Plus about the whole power node blocking thats been around since ns1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah okay. My bad. I would actually warm to walling a lot more if they just made a seperate structure to do this. This way it feels more like a feature.
Powernode blocking most certainly HASN'T been round since ns1 though. NS1 didn't have powernodes...
<!--quoteo(post=2023845:date=Nov 15 2012, 12:13 AM:name=Cidman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cidman @ Nov 15 2012, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Limit it to one armory per room just like sentry batteries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->ONE PER ROOM.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Despite the two obvious things: bile bomb them or use vortex to blend the armory out while more than one onos moves in I think every techpoint should have a ventilation access. They aren't difficult to guard or mine. Even sentries can help.
On top of this, armories are damn cheap (10TRes?) for a building that completely heals you, gives you ammo and works as wall. I propose armories costing 20 or at least 15 res! To make it worth spamming ammo + medpacks instead of building a cheap armory. Not to mention that they don't need armor-repair.
This is what I meant, too. Even if it's intended to be used as such, it is bad design and does not promote good gameplay. Just like Comchair blocking in NS1 - It is a terrible idea. Onosi in 6 minutes or less is a problem - Yes. But let's not fix a problem by introducing another problem and making it a 'feature'.
I would never ask them to nerf it. I would just ask them to completely remove the aspect from the game to promote more fun overall gameplay. It's the same reason Comchair blocking in NS1 was considered an exploit. Its' just not on par with the majority of the rest of the games good design-choices, so it boggles me somewhat.
I like Onii-chan's suggestion of not being able to build another armory within X distance of the first armory. Still allows marines to use single armories to slow down an Onos, but doesn't make it absurd.
The 6-minute Onos is a completely different problem, and the fix for that is to revise the alien tech tree so there are other strategies for aliens to use in order to win. How to revise it? I have no clue, that's for smarter people than me to figure out. :)
Gorges with bile bomb (maybe with onoses in front of them as a meatshield) are the counter to structure spam and MACs. If gorges tried to bile and failed, maybe they should've had a meatshield like an onos or two to soak up the grenades. Nades do very little damage to oni.
3 or 4 bile bomb hits and ALL the MACs are dead. Even if there's 30 of them, they're ALL dead.
Comments
Just because some games got dragged out a bit because of walls, don't try to get UWE to change the whole game just because you can't think of a strategy to work around it.
As others have said Gorges are the best counter to them, and if they are turtling behind armories they no doubt have only the one res tower so they won't have money for infinite MACs or more armories.
Sheesh.
Kudos to the common sense from a fellow '03er.
Whoop whoop!
I think each tech point room needs at least one entrance with a tall doorway.
It was never said to be intended. Please provide evidence of this if you're going to make this claim.
If anything it's been said that it wasn't intended, during the most recent tournament final. Correct me if i'm wrong, but Charlie said it wasn't really intended, but that it was interesting to see the players repurpose the armory for this reason.
Sure, the attitudes by UWE seem to promote it's use in gameplay, but surely it was never intended.
edit: that part's wrong. During the UWE event, it's stated by Charlie that he thought about adding a wall structure, but knew players would eventually just use other structures for this purpose anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2023933:date=Nov 14 2012, 08:18 PM:name=SupaDupaNoodle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupaDupaNoodle @ Nov 14 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get this. The armory wall was a response to ridiculous 6 minute onos rushes.
Just because some games got dragged out a bit because of walls, don't try to get UWE to change the whole game just because you can't think of a strategy to work around it.
As others have said Gorges are the best counter to them, and if they are turtling behind armories they no doubt have only the one res tower so they won't have money for infinite MACs or more armories.
Sheesh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason it's prevelant is because of 6 minute onos rushes, but that's no reason it should be allowed.
Lets not forget when armory blocking (i.e. putting an armory in the path of a retreating onos) was rampant, before ghost structures was introduced. Many people said "it's not an exploit, cause onoses are OP at the moment and it's all we have against them"
Same with the power node blocking that still goes on today: "it's not an exploit. Power nodes are way too weak. It's unfair that the marines have one structure that kills everything yet alien hives are so strong"
To me this fits more closely with your "try to get UWE to change the whole game just because you can't think of a strategy to work around it". People resorting to exploits, circumventing the devs intentions, because they can't deal with the current state of gameplay.
The only reason I feel that armory blocking has gotten to the point where it's outright allowed is that the competitive community for ns2 was so small during the beta (and still needs to grow now). We had a small set of people deciding what should and shouldn't be allowed in competitive play. This small set of people seemed to like the idea that walling has a place in the game. So did the people casting the tourneys (who always seem to congratulate the strategic genius of this move and mention that it's fine cause armorys cost res). So as a result, we have armory walling... Something that's not all that different from command chair blocking in ns1, which was considered an exploit and banned from competitive play in ns1.
Don't even try suggesting the game will be more fun without it.. All you'll hear is "well how do I deal with 6 minute onos". The answer is: the ability to drop an onos egg at 6 minutes is the problem, not the removal of armory walling. Marines have more than enough tech to deal with onoses late game without having to resort to exploit blockades.
Sure, it can be left up to tournament organizers and server admins as to whether they allow armory blocking... But I feel the continued prevalence of them is going to cause the devs to balance the game in accordance to how it is played with the inclusion of armory blocking. This could mean a more powerful onos than there otherwise would have been, or an armory with less hit-points, or whatever. So basically, if you want to play a game without armory blocking, you're still playing one balanced FOR armory blocking
edit: ya ur right wtf was i thinking lmao :P
Ah okay. My bad. I would actually warm to walling a lot more if they just made a seperate structure to do this. This way it feels more like a feature.
Powernode blocking most certainly HASN'T been round since ns1 though. NS1 didn't have powernodes...
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->ONE PER ROOM.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
bile bomb them or use vortex to blend the armory out while more than one onos moves in
I think every techpoint should have a ventilation access. They aren't difficult to guard or mine. Even sentries can help.
On top of this, armories are damn cheap (10TRes?) for a building that completely heals you, gives you ammo and works as wall.
I propose armories costing 20 or at least 15 res! To make it worth spamming ammo + medpacks instead of building a cheap armory.
Not to mention that they don't need armor-repair.
Done.
This is what I meant, too. Even if it's intended to be used as such, it is bad design and does not promote good gameplay. Just like Comchair blocking in NS1 - It is a terrible idea.
Onosi in 6 minutes or less is a problem - Yes. But let's not fix a problem by introducing another problem and making it a 'feature'.
No stupid nerfs please.
I would never ask them to nerf it. I would just ask them to completely remove the aspect from the game to promote more fun overall gameplay.
It's the same reason Comchair blocking in NS1 was considered an exploit. Its' just not on par with the majority of the rest of the games good design-choices, so it boggles me somewhat.
The 6-minute Onos is a completely different problem, and the fix for that is to revise the alien tech tree so there are other strategies for aliens to use in order to win. How to revise it? I have no clue, that's for smarter people than me to figure out. :)
3 or 4 bile bomb hits and ALL the MACs are dead. Even if there's 30 of them, they're ALL dead.