Just leave it up to the servers to decide. I have no problem with a few casual servers existing that allow changes to models (just as long as they don't become too prevelant and that more vanilla servers exist than these). Sure people can exploit it like adding great big spikes on models, but that's a small price to pay if you want to play with skulks that look like sonic the hedgehog, marines that look like master cheif, and onoses that look like donkey kong. That's not my kinda thing, but I'm sure some people enjoy the freedom to do so.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2023283:date=Nov 14 2012, 05:35 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 14 2012, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(so if you click too fast, or use a macro to spam fire commands, it won't fire at all).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can make the macros press the fire command 10 times in 10ms intervals, that would not be fixed by this method.
<!--quoteo(post=2023477:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:31 AM:name=Canucck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Canucck @ Nov 14 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This only really makes a difference at low level pub play... at the higher levels it's going to be completely negligible. A lot of good players in quake/etc used skins similar to this because they started with them early and it helped them become a better player faster, so they were used to them (although it wasn't a good idea since you probably couldn't use it most LANs). If you can only compete against players too inept to hear or see where you are without the skins then you probably have a lot to work on anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say pretty much every high level quake player has some type of forced skin for opponents that is completely okay at LAN. Typically it's Keen (bright green) or one of the fatter models. The hitbox stays the same, but you can see them around corners quicker/longer due to the larger player model. Nobody cares about this because it's negligible in Quake. In Quake, people don't rely on hiding in plain sight as you might in NS.
anyway, going to make my own bright skins and use them until they're fixed, pubs2gud.
<!--quoteo(post=2023379:date=Nov 14 2012, 05:59 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Nov 14 2012, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I say this frequently. The world would be much better without them. Without people there would be no traffic to get stuck in, no queues in coffee shops, etc. Life would be great!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one to make anymore petrol for you car, no one to serve you that coffee at the coffee shop.... lol
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2023756:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:59 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 14 2012, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can make the macros press the fire command 10 times in 10ms intervals, that would not be fixed by this method.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, in retrospect I didn't think that one through. Tell FoelliX to stop using macros btw. :/
<!--quoteo(post=2023492:date=Nov 14 2012, 02:37 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 14 2012, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about stuff like hiding weapon models? aka, holo rifle by aageon, or arkanti's hack mod on workshop right now. Changing skins and models has the potential to be very hacky, like putting great big horizontal spikes on models so you can see them around corners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The issue with this, is it's pretty easy to just stick all that stuff in consistancy lists. You can't prevent the "hacky" textures and models while at the same time allowing people the option to customize openly. It's a one or the other situation. This stuff isn't really hacking, hacking implies you're using a feature that you're not supposed to have access to, not using a feature that is fully open for you to play with, but is also exploitable.
Competitive matches will, of course, use strict consistency. Public servers will probably generally not use it, because why bother do this kind of thing on a public server?
<!--quoteo(post=2023756:date=Nov 14 2012, 03:59 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 14 2012, 03:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can make the macros press the fire command 10 times in 10ms intervals, that would not be fixed by this method.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That actually isn't true, I found it can be done significantly faster. The limit seems to be based on your framerate vice actual time. Here's a 13 second video showing me doing it. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLDuUXj8ww" target="_blank">Full pistol unload in .3 seconds</a>
Also note I only did that because I wanted to prove that it could be done after I reported someone to some server admins.
<!--quoteo(post=2023311:date=Nov 14 2012, 05:03 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 14 2012, 05:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How come no one has noticed the <!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->hot pink rifle<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> yet! :P
Some of the mods I play with are indeed using modified DDS files, however mine are purely aesthetic (NS1 alien skins and black armored/plated weapons and gloves). I've said it before, that those kinds of mods will probably be disabled once phase two of consistency checking goes in.
For competitive matches with prices involved or showmatches even, they can already be included in the check anyway. I just hope there will be a white listing option soon, for some of the aesthetic mods, or mods in general. I just hate to play with purple aliens and want my nostalgia aliens for pub play!!! And my crosshairs and my black amoured/plated weapons and gloves :(
Well the crosshairs DDS file should be exclude in any case from the consistency checking and the weapons and gloves mods could be excluded as well (community managed?). It's just the other dds files that are a bit... Prone to stuff like this, hot pink rifles for instance :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I use your black Armour weapons and gloves hope i can use them latter.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2024392:date=Nov 15 2012, 10:47 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Nov 15 2012, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh shut it! Until we have first person spectate and demos of them your words are hot gas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I cannot imagine a more useless reply. If you haven't read and/or understood the topic, don't post.
Neither of those will prevent (or detect) the type of cheating shown in this thread. It takes 2mins to perform the cheats shown in this thread and no technical knowledge, people will be doing it.
Consistency check is attack roflcopters. You can simply inject whatever textures you like with a memory editor anyway. VAC was reported to be activated though, so hopefully some attention will be given to that next patch and they'll explain how it works etc. Changing textures unchecked is pretty bad obviously.
<!--quoteo(post=2023756:date=Nov 14 2012, 11:59 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 14 2012, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can make the macros press the fire command 10 times in 10ms intervals, that would not be fixed by this method.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In fact it could prevent it, look at the way TF2 handles it. In this game you don't even have to spam it (but that's another topic).
But those "cheats" can only be done in mod servers, right? i dont enter mod servers, and never saw strange things, or this can be done with normal servers also? i mean a guy installs a green skin for skulk and playing in a normal server, he sees skulks in green or whatever colour.
<!--quoteo(post=2024484:date=Nov 15 2012, 09:01 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Nov 15 2012, 09:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, currently every single NS2 server allows this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So.......... i can be playing in a server without mods, OFFICIAL, and players maybe have installed skins for aliens in "yellow" and that way they see me easier? and this is permitted??? wow... didnt know that.........
hope Charlie do something about this........ those are advantages and cheats to kill easier, i dont want this game to become a cheating game......
A macro isn't a mod. There's even hardware that can that click fast for you. Letting you fire as fast as you (or software on the computer or built into the mouse) can click is a design flaw.
I'd agree to forbid changing player models/skins. In a game, where hiding as a skulk often is an essential part of gameplay, these shiny bright green/red/yellow skulk models are nothing but a cheat. Besides being unfair and throwing off the balance of the game there is another important reason against these custom skins:
If we allow these skins as being the lesser evil compared to the game not beiing modable anymore, it "forces" all players to use this kind of skin. As it gives great advantage on dark maps, any player not using these skins is downright stupid from a competitive perspective. It all comes down to the Quake 3 Effect: Every player who wants to play not entirely casual will have to use these skins, low res map textures etc. thus completely altering the game experiance. I think it's not disirable for NS as a game to become this ugly "shoot the shiny blobs" game. It already starts with the infestation: Turning it off gives a huge advantage in terms of simplification of the map and thus makes spotting Aliens in infested territory alot easier. Of course I -as a player who wants to play eye-to-eye with the better players on public servers- have infestation disabled. Granted, it kills some of the atmosphere and the game does not look as good as it could anymore but I think most players decide the same as I have. So following the same logic that makes me believe that custom Models/textures must be forbidden on "normal" servers, Infestation should be always "rich"
<!--quoteo(post=2024484:date=Nov 15 2012, 06:01 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Nov 15 2012, 06:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024484"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, currently every single NS2 server allows this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A server operator could correct me if I am wrong but this isn't entirely true. The way I understand it is that the default consistency check as set up by UWE does not look at textures or models but they can be added to the check by the operator by adding *.dds, *.model, *.material to the ConsistencyConfig.json file on the server.
The problem is the vast majority of the servers use the default config which does not include things like this thus people can use these custom textures to gain advantages.
edit: added crosshairs-hit.dds as per Zeikko in case someone copypastas this.
You also need to upload all the files you want to check for consistency to the server. You would also want to ignore the ui/crosshairs-hit.dds otherwise you will get kicked the first time you hit someone.
Edit: to clear it further. The default server installation doesn't include most of the models, textures, materials, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=2024558:date=Nov 15 2012, 07:33 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Nov 15 2012, 07:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You also need to upload all the files you want to check for consistency to the server. You would also want to ignore the ui/crosshairs-hit.dds otherwise you will get kicked the first time you hit someone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2023256:date=Nov 14 2012, 05:09 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 14 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2023256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consistency checks currently do not encompass textures, as those files are not also available on the servers. I had heard that was part of 'Phase 2' for consistency checks, where they will presumeably include hashes for all the files not included in the server build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->All server admins are free to copy all game textures from the game client to the server, if they want to.
NS2 is a very modable game and I hope it stays like this, and that it is even extended further to even opening up parts of the engine or adding a lot more to the API. If you run a server which does not enforce consistency checking, it is your job as an administrator to regularly check on the server and making sure that nobody utilizes unfair cheats. Changing the color of textures is not an unfair cheat in my opinion.
NS2 has from what I've seen supported Valve Anti-Cheat for some time(not fully all the time), but it was only just activated a couple of days ago. This will hopefully hinder cheaters from manipulating or extracting sensitive data in the game memory, e.g. to bypass CCs.
<!--quoteo(post=2024543:date=Nov 15 2012, 06:08 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Nov 15 2012, 06:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we allow these skins as being the lesser evil compared to the game not beiing modable anymore, it "forces" all players to use this kind of skin. As it gives great advantage on dark maps, any player not using these skins is downright stupid from a competitive perspective. It all comes down to the Quake 3 Effect: Every player who wants to play not entirely casual will have to use these skins, low res map textures etc. thus completely altering the game experiance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it alters the experience for the better because it makes the game about decisions and executing those decisions instead of who can master some crappy default UI
it's only cheating in NS2 because they wanted camouflage in the game and this breaks that, not because it gives an advantage
Comments
Just leave it up to the servers to decide. I have no problem with a few casual servers existing that allow changes to models (just as long as they don't become too prevelant and that more vanilla servers exist than these). Sure people can exploit it like adding great big spikes on models, but that's a small price to pay if you want to play with skulks that look like sonic the hedgehog, marines that look like master cheif, and onoses that look like donkey kong. That's not my kinda thing, but I'm sure some people enjoy the freedom to do so.
You can make the macros press the fire command 10 times in 10ms intervals, that would not be fixed by this method.
I'd say pretty much every high level quake player has some type of forced skin for opponents that is completely okay at LAN. Typically it's Keen (bright green) or one of the fatter models. The hitbox stays the same, but you can see them around corners quicker/longer due to the larger player model. Nobody cares about this because it's negligible in Quake. In Quake, people don't rely on hiding in plain sight as you might in NS.
anyway, going to make my own bright skins and use them until they're fixed, pubs2gud.
No one to make anymore petrol for you car, no one to serve you that coffee at the coffee shop.... lol
Yeah, in retrospect I didn't think that one through. Tell FoelliX to stop using macros btw. :/
The issue with this, is it's pretty easy to just stick all that stuff in consistancy lists. You can't prevent the "hacky" textures and models while at the same time allowing people the option to customize openly. It's a one or the other situation. This stuff isn't really hacking, hacking implies you're using a feature that you're not supposed to have access to, not using a feature that is fully open for you to play with, but is also exploitable.
Competitive matches will, of course, use strict consistency. Public servers will probably generally not use it, because why bother do this kind of thing on a public server?
That actually isn't true, I found it can be done significantly faster. The limit seems to be based on your framerate vice actual time. Here's a 13 second video showing me doing it.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLDuUXj8ww" target="_blank">Full pistol unload in .3 seconds</a>
Also note I only did that because I wanted to prove that it could be done after I reported someone to some server admins.
Some of the mods I play with are indeed using modified DDS files, however mine are purely aesthetic (NS1 alien skins and black armored/plated weapons and gloves). I've said it before, that those kinds of mods will probably be disabled once phase two of consistency checking goes in.
For competitive matches with prices involved or showmatches even, they can already be included in the check anyway. I just hope there will be a white listing option soon, for some of the aesthetic mods, or mods in general. I just hate to play with purple aliens and want my nostalgia aliens for pub play!!! And my crosshairs and my black amoured/plated weapons and gloves :(
Well the crosshairs DDS file should be exclude in any case from the consistency checking and the weapons and gloves mods could be excluded as well (community managed?). It's just the other dds files that are a bit... Prone to stuff like this, hot pink rifles for instance :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I use your black Armour weapons and gloves hope i can use them latter.
I cannot imagine a more useless reply. If you haven't read and/or understood the topic, don't post.
Neither of those will prevent (or detect) the type of cheating shown in this thread. It takes 2mins to perform the cheats shown in this thread and no technical knowledge, people will be doing it.
In fact it could prevent it, look at the way TF2 handles it. In this game you don't even have to spam it (but that's another topic).
is that possible?? hope not!!
Yes, currently every single NS2 server allows this.
It is, at least on the official UWE servers. Character models/textures are too aren't they? I swear my gun modifications don't work on them.
Imma go check.
Edit: Yeah alienvision can't be changed on the UWE servers but it turns out my gun alpha tweaks are fine :/.
So.......... i can be playing in a server without mods, OFFICIAL, and players maybe have installed skins for aliens in "yellow" and that way they see me easier? and this is permitted??? wow... didnt know that.........
hope Charlie do something about this........ those are advantages and cheats to kill easier, i dont want this game to become a cheating game......
That, and binding mousewheel to firing for pistol pew pew.
Just an observation.
In a game, where hiding as a skulk often is an essential part of gameplay, these shiny bright green/red/yellow skulk models are nothing but a cheat.
Besides being unfair and throwing off the balance of the game there is another important reason against these custom skins:
If we allow these skins as being the lesser evil compared to the game not beiing modable anymore, it "forces" all players to use this kind of skin. As it gives great advantage on dark maps, any player not using these skins is downright stupid from a competitive perspective.
It all comes down to the Quake 3 Effect: Every player who wants to play not entirely casual will have to use these skins, low res map textures etc. thus completely altering the game experiance.
I think it's not disirable for NS as a game to become this ugly "shoot the shiny blobs" game. It already starts with the infestation: Turning it off gives a huge advantage in terms of simplification of the map and thus makes spotting Aliens in infested territory alot easier. Of course I -as a player who wants to play eye-to-eye with the better players on public servers- have infestation disabled. Granted, it kills some of the atmosphere and the game does not look as good as it could anymore but I think most players decide the same as I have. So following the same logic that makes me believe that custom Models/textures must be forbidden on "normal" servers, Infestation should be always "rich"
A server operator could correct me if I am wrong but this isn't entirely true. The way I understand it is that the default consistency check as set up by UWE does not look at textures or models but they can be added to the check by the operator by adding *.dds, *.model, *.material to the ConsistencyConfig.json file on the server.
Like this:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->{
"check": [ "game_setup.xml", "*.lua", "*.fx", "*.screenfx", "*.surface_shader", "*.fxh", "*.render_setup", "*.shader_template", "*.dds", "*.model", "*.material" ]
}<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
From there they can set up whitelisted files like the crosshair textures like this
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->"ignore": [ "ui/crosshairs.dds", "ui/crosshairs-hit.dds" ]<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
The problem is the vast majority of the servers use the default config which does not include things like this thus people can use these custom textures to gain advantages.
edit: added crosshairs-hit.dds as per Zeikko in case someone copypastas this.
You also need to upload all the files you want to check for consistency to the server. You would also want to ignore the ui/crosshairs-hit.dds otherwise you will get kicked the first time you hit someone.
Edit: to clear it further. The default server installation doesn't include most of the models, textures, materials, etc.
Ah noted.
NS2 is a very modable game and I hope it stays like this, and that it is even extended further to even opening up parts of the engine or adding a lot more to the API. If you run a server which does not enforce consistency checking, it is your job as an administrator to regularly check on the server and making sure that nobody utilizes unfair cheats. Changing the color of textures is not an unfair cheat in my opinion.
NS2 has from what I've seen supported Valve Anti-Cheat for some time(not fully all the time), but it was only just activated a couple of days ago. This will hopefully hinder cheaters from manipulating or extracting sensitive data in the game memory, e.g. to bypass CCs.
It all comes down to the Quake 3 Effect: Every player who wants to play not entirely casual will have to use these skins, low res map textures etc. thus completely altering the game experiance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it alters the experience for the better because it makes the game about decisions and executing those decisions instead of who can master some crappy default UI
it's only cheating in NS2 because they wanted camouflage in the game and this breaks that, not because it gives an advantage