Lifeform explosion, 5-6min Onos, OP Fade
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Esteemed Gentleman Join Date: 2010-07-13 Member: 72344Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
Esteemed Gentleman Join Date: 2010-07-13 Member: 72344Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
<div class="IPBDescription">or how I learned to love RFK</div>I have spent a lot of time playing NS1/NS2 over the years and when looking at NS2 it, to me, has one fundamental balance problem. That problem being higher lifeforms occurring during times of the game they are not balanced for. The most glaring of which is the Onos which has been discussed into the ground on these forums. The other being the fade which over its lifetime in NS2 has been subjected to the proverbial nerf bat beat down in order to fit it into the NS2 balance model. The last is the lifeform explosion commonly associated with mass fades (hence why we have considerably weaker fades than in NS1).
There is a huge fundamental difference between NS1 and NS2 which causes these issues -- The resource model. In order to properly balance the lifeforms as they exist now (other than scaling which is another can of worms), we need to look into separating the TRes and PRes pools. As it is now they are inextricably linked with commander weapon/egg drops. This is a throw back to the NS1 commander controlled weapon distribution on the marine team. While this continues to work relatively well in NS2 for the marines it is causing balance and timing issues for the alien commander. This is mostly due to the complete rebuild of the alien tech to fit it into a new Overmind style with one person in control rather than the team working as a collective. The resource model was adjusted to fit.
PRes is not the problem however, and reverting back to the collective model for the alien team and removing the commander is NOT going to make the game a better place. We have NS1 and NS2:C to enjoy this mechanic. NS2 is intended to appeal to a broader audience for better or worse and the commander inclusion helps it towards this goal by making the alien side just a little less daunting in teamwork. Whether people want to believe it or not the alien team was complicated in how their resource model functioned and cordoning it off to one individual rather than the team simplifies the issue and allows for more ease in balancing between different player counts.
How can we change the model then? What I propose would play into the asymmetry and has probably been mentioned on these forums in one way or another. I would like to see the removal of "No res while dead" and have RFK implemented instead similar to NS1 and previous beta builds of NS2. However, rather than both sides feeding into the same resource pool the marines RFK would feed into TRes and the alien RFK would feed into PRes. This simulates the resource model in NS1 where the marines focused their tech and equipment advancement from a single pool and the aliens shared theirs and also benefited from it individually. This does not come without its own set of problems. The most glaring of which is the lack of resource sinks on the alien team for both the commander and individual. The commander does have a lot of tools they can use but not all of them are viable. A change like this could open up more early drifter play and more focus on tech. From the individual standpoint there still not a lot of viable res sinks. The lerk is now in a much better place than it was but the gorge needs help. Additional structures (such as a nydus-like canal which would solve other issues) would be needed and since UWE has stated they would like to expand the gorge structure arsenal this kind of model could have more viability. The other change that could make a comeback with this model is chamber upgrades costing a small amount of res to evolve. Of course it goes without saying that res costs of buildings and research will all need to be adjusted to preserve the soft timings of when they are to arrive.
Even with this model the same arguments against RFK still hold true, snowballing, etc. However, I really would like to have civil discussion on what we can change (if possible) about the resource model to put balance in a better place. When I say balance into a better place, I do understand that we have close to a 50/50 win rate, but that isn't what I am alluding to. I want all tech paths to be viable and to open the game up for more dynamic play and right now the alien team, to me, feels a tad linear despite having a broad tree of tech to choose from in the early game. To put it bluntly, I do not believe simply making a small change like moving onos egg drop to hive 3 is going to fundamentally solve the problem.
There is a huge fundamental difference between NS1 and NS2 which causes these issues -- The resource model. In order to properly balance the lifeforms as they exist now (other than scaling which is another can of worms), we need to look into separating the TRes and PRes pools. As it is now they are inextricably linked with commander weapon/egg drops. This is a throw back to the NS1 commander controlled weapon distribution on the marine team. While this continues to work relatively well in NS2 for the marines it is causing balance and timing issues for the alien commander. This is mostly due to the complete rebuild of the alien tech to fit it into a new Overmind style with one person in control rather than the team working as a collective. The resource model was adjusted to fit.
PRes is not the problem however, and reverting back to the collective model for the alien team and removing the commander is NOT going to make the game a better place. We have NS1 and NS2:C to enjoy this mechanic. NS2 is intended to appeal to a broader audience for better or worse and the commander inclusion helps it towards this goal by making the alien side just a little less daunting in teamwork. Whether people want to believe it or not the alien team was complicated in how their resource model functioned and cordoning it off to one individual rather than the team simplifies the issue and allows for more ease in balancing between different player counts.
How can we change the model then? What I propose would play into the asymmetry and has probably been mentioned on these forums in one way or another. I would like to see the removal of "No res while dead" and have RFK implemented instead similar to NS1 and previous beta builds of NS2. However, rather than both sides feeding into the same resource pool the marines RFK would feed into TRes and the alien RFK would feed into PRes. This simulates the resource model in NS1 where the marines focused their tech and equipment advancement from a single pool and the aliens shared theirs and also benefited from it individually. This does not come without its own set of problems. The most glaring of which is the lack of resource sinks on the alien team for both the commander and individual. The commander does have a lot of tools they can use but not all of them are viable. A change like this could open up more early drifter play and more focus on tech. From the individual standpoint there still not a lot of viable res sinks. The lerk is now in a much better place than it was but the gorge needs help. Additional structures (such as a nydus-like canal which would solve other issues) would be needed and since UWE has stated they would like to expand the gorge structure arsenal this kind of model could have more viability. The other change that could make a comeback with this model is chamber upgrades costing a small amount of res to evolve. Of course it goes without saying that res costs of buildings and research will all need to be adjusted to preserve the soft timings of when they are to arrive.
Even with this model the same arguments against RFK still hold true, snowballing, etc. However, I really would like to have civil discussion on what we can change (if possible) about the resource model to put balance in a better place. When I say balance into a better place, I do understand that we have close to a 50/50 win rate, but that isn't what I am alluding to. I want all tech paths to be viable and to open the game up for more dynamic play and right now the alien team, to me, feels a tad linear despite having a broad tree of tech to choose from in the early game. To put it bluntly, I do not believe simply making a small change like moving onos egg drop to hive 3 is going to fundamentally solve the problem.
Comments
Same problem on the alien side. You'd get that one good player who could early Fade and then the game was almost over. Unupgraded marines vs. early Fade was no contest, the Fade could keep them bottled up in their base long enough for the Gorge to expand.
yes. rfk please. i would say 1-3 maybe too huge a range. even 1 res per kill would do. at least it rewards offensive plays instead of having avoiding death as the main goal. believe it or not, most optimize personal performance than really winning the game as a team.
I propose splitting resources for kills as 2 for the player/3 for the team or 1/4 or something similar. Having absolutely no reward sucks for the player getting the frag and doing the hard work. I agree that resources being split to the team is a good idea as well. However, a compromise is clearly the best solution.
FYI, I have played for a <i>long</i> time. I had the NS2 beta but pc crashes due to a bad PSU preveted me from playing it and providing feedback.
Instead of resources, have aliens earn DNA points they use to upgrade everything about their chosen lifeform :)
You don't even need it do be that high. Honestly, .5 res per kill would probably be enough. Too high and the snowballing gets worse. In terms of marine turtling with RFK, the turret problem that NS1 had isn't really an issue anymore with the limit per room we enjoy in NS2. To do something like this there needs to be a careful balance on the numbers side as the fun factor is still important to the losing team and when the numbers are kept on the lower end you should see less people complaining about "feeders" which is also a problem with RFK.
It wasn't a popular idea for no real specific reason, but I described removing the weapon and armor upgrades and replacing them with actual upgraded weapons and armor you had to buy before you moved out. The actual place on the tech tree wouldn't change and would require research, but then instead of just spawning with upgraded armor, you'd have to go buy a couple pres worth of armor upgrades at the armory, and an HMG which would replace the W3 LMG. With increased marine outflow, you could then implement increased marine inflow.
As to the specifics of why, I think it's fairly obvious.
Whether the 'RFK' feeds into T.Res or P.Res makes no difference, as functionally they can be used in the exact same way for the things that matter. It simply puts in in the hands of the individual or into the hands of the commander to use wisely. However, in reality team work means the commander can always buy his broke troopers shotguns, but the individual aliens can only buy life forms. In effect, you are nerfing the entire alien team since a decent aliens player will <i>easily</i> cap P.Res while the Marine commander has a far larger array of things he can do with T.Res, including spending it as P.Res for his players.
Adding another resource generator into a game that already gives away heaps of resources will just make games that much shorter and see far less of already scant mid-game units. Not to mention you'll get far more Rambo's, and far less team work. You can already draw those conclusions, as it's exactly what happened with it's implementation in other games. Why build nodes when you can p0wn n00bs to make piles of resources?
As the most horrible example, Marines could farm egg's at a hive and never need to expand further than that, until they finally get bored of Exo's and JP/Shotguns and down the hive in two seconds. Of course, the Aliens would rage quit before that eventuality but never-the-less it would be possible.
That aside, why reward killing? Why not reward dealing damage to buildings/enemies? Or destroying buildings? This would actually work a little against rambos and "pros" who rack up dozens of kills, but never help in a single major push. This may work towards the team play aspect of the game more, at least indirectly. With such a system, munching extractors as skulk will not only make your team more likely to win, but will also reward you by making your next higher life form more of a viability quicker. This means players who destroy enemy team structures a lot will get to the next tier of life form/weapon faster, which would be a great reward for having done something for the team, whether they realize it or not. This would most likely have to be balanced in such a way that lower tier life forms/weapons give off greater rewards, so the time skulks spend being "useless" late game is minimized and marines can more easily make the decision to buy support weapons, rather than just sticking to their LMG and trying to rambo some more until they have accumulated enough res for the next tier weapon.
This may work against tech/life form explosions, but may also cause some life forms to appear TOO early and some weapons (mines?) to appear too consistently. To compensate, the duration of evolutions may be tweaked, or their prerequisites and something might have to be done about weapons. Not sure what, though. Whether it be cost or maybe availability.
Thoughts?
Because games in NS have always and will always be won due to the ability of one team to get early frags and control the map. If your team can't get frags, you lose. It does not matter how fast you tech or how many RTs you have, if you can't get frags, you lose. It is the most fundamental aspect of the game. NS1 and NS2 are identical in this regard.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not reward dealing damage to buildings/enemies? Or destroying buildings?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also valid. Maybe team res is better for this because several skulks can work on taking down res nodes together.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This would actually work a little against rambos and "pros" who rack up dozens of kills, but never help in a single major push. This may work towards the team play aspect of the game more, at least indirectly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Outside of a team game, it is VERY unlikely to get a team of players with identical skill. One player will always be playing better that round than the rest. Therefore, the most efficient use of resources is to reward that player and allow him/her to continue doing what is best for the team - killing the enemy. This is common sense.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With such a system, munching extractors as skulk will not only make your team more likely to win, but will also reward you by making your next higher life form more of a viability quicker. This means players who destroy enemy team structures a lot will get to the next tier of life form/weapon faster, which would be a great reward for having done something for the team, whether they realize it or not. This would most likely have to be balanced in such a way that lower tier life forms/weapons give off greater rewards, so the time skulks spend being "useless" late game is minimized and marines can more easily make the decision to buy support weapons, rather than just sticking to their LMG and trying to rambo some more until they have accumulated enough res for the next tier weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is a skulk may spend ages biting an RT and then another player may come along and get the final bite and take all the res. This is not fun for the skulk that spent all the time biting it.
To conclude therefore, aliens need personal res for frags for the efficient use of resources in their team. Marines I am not so sure about yet. I believe NS1 had the resource model correct, however.
Problem is no division between tres and pres, that was a major mistake. Keep getting 6 minute onos.
And what is wrong with making good players better exactly? If they have invested the time in becoming good then they should be rewarded for that. Nerfing good players just makes them frustrated and makes them play a different game that rewards skill. Most things in life reward skill.
As I said, rewarding the most skilled aliens is the most efficient use of resources.
i have concerns going below one. as UWE stated that they do not want hidden parameters, having .5 res seems hidden enough. but well, now the tick for pres is 0.125... consistency issues.
What if evolutionary costs scaled based on kills achieved:
A gorge just costs 10 resources.
A lerk costs 80 resources, -10 res per kill of player/structure, to a maximum of -50. (once you have killed 5 things, a lerk is 30 res).
A fade costs 100 resources, -5 resource per kill of player/structure, to a maximum of -50. (once you have killed 10 things, a fade is 50 res).
An onos costs 100 resources, -1 resource per kill of player/structure to a maximum of -25. (once you have killed 25 things, an onos is 75 res).
Though I agree that death penalty of no res collection doesn't make sense to me. It further punishes poor players, who are already punished by spending more time dead. They get fewer chances to play with the toys to learn to get better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because games in NS have always and will always be won due to the ability of one team to get early frags and control the map. If your team can't get frags, you lose. It does not matter how fast you tech or how many RTs you have, if you can't get frags, you lose. It is the most fundamental aspect of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally disagree. The most fundamental aspect of the game is territory control. Getting more kills helps to extend territory control. But a team that dies more often, but manages to preserve their buildings, and kill off the enemy's, WILL and SHOULD win. This is why the objective of the game is to kill the CC/Hive, not first team to 100 frags wins.
Obviously if the teams are overly stacked "fraggers" will win the game, but a smart team-play team with a 0.7 kill ratio can still very likely win the game if they focus on what's important. Territory and the RTS component.
Simple example - alien team deploys forward shift with eggs; continual pressure on marine start. Marines forced to play defensively, aliens can cap rest of map. Even though marines get more skulk kills, they lose the map, and eventually all those squishy skulks become fades and onos. gg.
I'm glad you read the post where I mention they have been nerfed into the ground.
I think RFK might fix some issues and I understand others don't and that's cool. However, my main point that I am trying to make is there is a fundamental problem with TRes and PRes being closely linked which is most likely causing some of the other issues we see.
As I said, rewarding the most skilled aliens is the most efficient use of resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making better players better is not a good idea. See CoD. Besides skill is rewarded. It's called map control, that's your reward, it's a team game and should be treated as such.
If you want shallow gameplay, that treats you like a child, telling you how good you are every step of the way go play combat mod.
Oh and please elaborate on this; rofl
<!--quoteo(post=2019421:date=Nov 11 2012, 05:43 AM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 11 2012, 05:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nerfing good players just makes them frustrated and makes them play a different game that rewards skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please tell me. How are good players being nerfed? Do you lose res when you get kills? I was not aware!
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=2019253:date=Nov 11 2012, 12:32 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 11 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2019253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RFK sucks and it's been discussed to death here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^QFT
As I said, rewarding the most skilled aliens is the most efficient use of resources.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry I thought this was a team based game, where the reward was a victory for the team? Are we just deciding that 1 good player should win the game by default?
Ok I'll get my coat...
Well that's a silly system we've got right now anyways. That should be sorted out, as well. Getting the last hit on an enemy/building should not be rewarded. The skulk that did spend ages chewing on the extractor should get the reward, even if another skulk came in and got the last hit.
And your point about getting kills being the core mechanic of NS2, I somewhat disagree, I see getting kills as a means to an end, not as the end. I've seen good teams lose, because they didn't have enough map control. The rambo who goes out to kill enemies, but ignores enemy buildings may delay the enemy a bit, but effectively doesn't achieve anything meaningful. However sniping enemy upgrades or extractors constantly is what wins games, being good at killing enemies does however make this easier.
The game is centered around getting kills and gaining map control, this is true, but to me, getting lots of kills and knowing I am great at defending/attacking is a reward on its own. But I also know I am of much greater help to my team and my comm if I go back to base in order to build something when needed, rather than staying at the front line and killing more enemies instead, leaving that precious res investment dormant in base.
However, you do not get map control without the ability to get frags. If all aliens do is die in every room then they will quickly lose map control. Since most most teams are skill imbalanced with having only a few good players per team, it makes sense for the good players to help their team out the most. They can do this by controlling key locations on the map by getting frags. Punishing them for doing so by playing their best role for the team is just not sensible.
The best way a skilled player can help his team is to get as many frags as possible. Since marines move much more slowly than aliens, this helps his team out the most, allowing the weaker players to expand map control behind him. This still works in NS2, but the skilled player cannot carry his team to the same extent because he does not get faster lifeforms. Therefore, a team of newb marines will eventually win, because, lets face it, the average marine player is far better than the average alien player because most people always will always have no clue how to play skulk. By not rewarding the skilled player, what could be balanced teams are totally ruined by the resource/lifeform system of no res per kill for aliens. For marines, a different model applies.
Therefore, frags are the most fundamental aspect of the game. If you do not think this is so, I strongly suggest you re-analyse the gameplay mechanics of NS.
I'm not even going to bother to reply to the rest of your reply. This is a game of <b><u>strategy</u></b>. A game of NS, though highly unlikely, Could literally be won without anyone on your team ever getting a kill. As in you just keep pushing the enemy back and they retreat before they die. As I said, highly unlikely, but the point is it could happen. Kills don't mean anything.
The way you throw around the word frag makes me think you play K/D based FPS. K/D means nothing in terms of skill and competency in NS.
P.S. nearly your entire post was based on opinions and given as fact....
Yeah OK kills mean nothing. Hey aliens you can stop killing marines and just let them build all over the map because kills are so pointless, in fact why even have guns and biting let's just let everyone run around building RTs and spurs and arms labs and make merry and hug and kiss and save the trees.
This isn't Civilization. This isn't a game of Grand Strategy. ONE person on each team is designated to play strategy. EVERYBODY ELSE is there to kill or be killed (except the gorge who is stuck in limbo and horrible).
This isn't Civilization. This isn't a game of Grand Strategy. ONE person on each team is designated to play strategy. EVERYBODY ELSE is there to kill or be killed (except the gorge who is stuck in limbo and horrible).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rofl. Nice job at looking like a jackass ;)
Whoo that snowball sure looks mighty big!
A far more likely scenario (which has been casted) is a team winning by doing nothing but shooting or biting the opposing team to death. Kills don't mean everything, but to say they mean nothing is to deny reality. Killing things is an important part of any good strategy in NS/NS2.