Mobility And Extreme Force - The Marine Way
Rolling_Rock
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8677Members
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8677Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How the Frontiersmen win</div> I gave a rundown of the underlying Kharaa strategy toward winning, so I'll throw in the Marine one as well.
The strength of the Marines is in numbers and in coordination. The Kharaa typically spawn in different areas across the map - not together. The Kharaa have no real overall coordination or plan of action. This is good in that they can attack many places at once, but their real weakness is that they cannot effectively focus all their forces on one location.
The marines can.
* Don't Waste Time. Time is on the Kharaa side. Marines must act quickly and decisively toward every action. The longer the Marines wait, the more time the gorges have to build defenses, and the greater the chance you will encounter level 2 aliens. Securing one hive is a MUST. But that isn't enough. You must cut down their resources and put pressure on the other two hives.
* STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER.
* STAY TOGETHER. Is this point clear yet? The marine st rength is the fact that the ENTIRE marine team can be focused on a single objective. A single location. Never run off alone. Find a buddy, and stay with him. If you see someone building or knifing an alien structure, stand back and guard his back. If you're building and your buddy starts firing, stop and add to the firepower. Kharaa have great difficulty putting all their forces in one place at the same time. Marines do not. Focus all your fire on one location and you WILL drive them back. Go out alone and they'll pick you off, one by one, wasting your time and securing victory in your own hands.
* Be Mobile. Do not waste time building up defenses around a resource node unless it is in a strategic place or is frequently attacked. Plopping down one resource node is 22 resources. Plopping down a resource node, turret factory, and four turrets is 113, and takes a lot more time. The same resources could be used to build the node, get an observatory, and upgrade motion tracking. Place nodes, and move on. If you think it will be attacked, leave 2 men behind to guard it and have the ENTIRE rest of the team move on to secure a hive. KEEP MOVING. Do not linger in one spot. Aliens WILL start to coordinate if they know where you are, but they are slow in relaying the message and getting there.
* Make the Aliens come to YOU. Put pressure on their resource sites. Kill one and move on to a hive. Make the Kharaa come to you. Don't let them run off and do their own thing. Make their gorges defend their resource sites and hives instead of building new ones. 5-7 marines vs sporadic groups of 1-3 aliens = Marine Ownage. Make them come to you, and you'll mop the floor with them. If you go chasing after them, they'll lay traps for you and you will be harassed and killed.
* Do what YOU need to do, don't react to the Aliens. Again, you have the initiative, and you have the concentrated firepower. Commanders, give your men waypoints. Secure those hives, destroy their resources, but above all, MOVE QUICKLY. Do not give them time to coordinate. Do not give them time to react. Do not let them predict you. Attack a hive they are trying to set up. If you fail, direct the troops to attack the OTHER hive. The aliens will be working to defend the one you just attacked, while the other will likely be undefended or mildly so. Make them come to you and react to your doctrine.
The first key to marines is Mobility. Keep moving, be mobile, and do not waste time. Time lost is money lost and victory toward the aliens.
The second key to the marines is concentrated firepower. STAY TOGETHER. There IS safety in numbers, especially with men with ranged weapons.
To give a good analogy here to the Starcraft players. Pit 1 zergling against 1 marine. Marine dies. Pit 10 zerglings against 10 marines. Most, if not all, of the marines will live. Another illustration is the beginning game rush that aliens usually do. If the marines stay at base and wait for it, even if the entire alien team comes at once, the combined firepower of the marines (provided they know how to aim) is enough to pretty easily shoot the **obscenity** out of all of the aliens. If you keep up with this model, keeping most or all of your marines together at all times, no amount of alien force can stop you once you get rolling.
So marines - stay together, constantly attack the aliens in different locations. Stay mobile, and try not to waste resources building static defenses. It's better to secure a hive and put the static defenses there, you'll get them up faster and you'll put them where they'll be most useful.
Take the fight to them, and don't let them do whatever they want. Go in quickly. Go in with extreme force. Leave the bubblegum.
The strength of the Marines is in numbers and in coordination. The Kharaa typically spawn in different areas across the map - not together. The Kharaa have no real overall coordination or plan of action. This is good in that they can attack many places at once, but their real weakness is that they cannot effectively focus all their forces on one location.
The marines can.
* Don't Waste Time. Time is on the Kharaa side. Marines must act quickly and decisively toward every action. The longer the Marines wait, the more time the gorges have to build defenses, and the greater the chance you will encounter level 2 aliens. Securing one hive is a MUST. But that isn't enough. You must cut down their resources and put pressure on the other two hives.
* STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER. STAY TOGETHER.
* STAY TOGETHER. Is this point clear yet? The marine st rength is the fact that the ENTIRE marine team can be focused on a single objective. A single location. Never run off alone. Find a buddy, and stay with him. If you see someone building or knifing an alien structure, stand back and guard his back. If you're building and your buddy starts firing, stop and add to the firepower. Kharaa have great difficulty putting all their forces in one place at the same time. Marines do not. Focus all your fire on one location and you WILL drive them back. Go out alone and they'll pick you off, one by one, wasting your time and securing victory in your own hands.
* Be Mobile. Do not waste time building up defenses around a resource node unless it is in a strategic place or is frequently attacked. Plopping down one resource node is 22 resources. Plopping down a resource node, turret factory, and four turrets is 113, and takes a lot more time. The same resources could be used to build the node, get an observatory, and upgrade motion tracking. Place nodes, and move on. If you think it will be attacked, leave 2 men behind to guard it and have the ENTIRE rest of the team move on to secure a hive. KEEP MOVING. Do not linger in one spot. Aliens WILL start to coordinate if they know where you are, but they are slow in relaying the message and getting there.
* Make the Aliens come to YOU. Put pressure on their resource sites. Kill one and move on to a hive. Make the Kharaa come to you. Don't let them run off and do their own thing. Make their gorges defend their resource sites and hives instead of building new ones. 5-7 marines vs sporadic groups of 1-3 aliens = Marine Ownage. Make them come to you, and you'll mop the floor with them. If you go chasing after them, they'll lay traps for you and you will be harassed and killed.
* Do what YOU need to do, don't react to the Aliens. Again, you have the initiative, and you have the concentrated firepower. Commanders, give your men waypoints. Secure those hives, destroy their resources, but above all, MOVE QUICKLY. Do not give them time to coordinate. Do not give them time to react. Do not let them predict you. Attack a hive they are trying to set up. If you fail, direct the troops to attack the OTHER hive. The aliens will be working to defend the one you just attacked, while the other will likely be undefended or mildly so. Make them come to you and react to your doctrine.
The first key to marines is Mobility. Keep moving, be mobile, and do not waste time. Time lost is money lost and victory toward the aliens.
The second key to the marines is concentrated firepower. STAY TOGETHER. There IS safety in numbers, especially with men with ranged weapons.
To give a good analogy here to the Starcraft players. Pit 1 zergling against 1 marine. Marine dies. Pit 10 zerglings against 10 marines. Most, if not all, of the marines will live. Another illustration is the beginning game rush that aliens usually do. If the marines stay at base and wait for it, even if the entire alien team comes at once, the combined firepower of the marines (provided they know how to aim) is enough to pretty easily shoot the **obscenity** out of all of the aliens. If you keep up with this model, keeping most or all of your marines together at all times, no amount of alien force can stop you once you get rolling.
So marines - stay together, constantly attack the aliens in different locations. Stay mobile, and try not to waste resources building static defenses. It's better to secure a hive and put the static defenses there, you'll get them up faster and you'll put them where they'll be most useful.
Take the fight to them, and don't let them do whatever they want. Go in quickly. Go in with extreme force. Leave the bubblegum.
Comments
I cannot stress this enough, Marine teams always need Sergeants to help the commander micromanage troop movements. A simple, "Let's go" or "Hold here until we get some (insert building) up." will usually cajole one or two Marines to stick with you until the commander can get around to it. Morale is also very important, despite the simulated combat, if you die, when you respawn and the situation is bad let the guys holding out know you're on your way back they'll be confident that they'll hold out at least until you get there. Rock brings up great points, especially staying together, groups usually need a sub-leader besides a commander and someone needs to make sure the points are covered while the Commander is focused on the "Big Picture". Obviously the commander will see differently than the Marines who are down there in the dirt, and in the dirt is where it matters. If the Marines cannot take a position, then there is no advance and no maneuver warfare. Range is always the Marine advantage, especially against critical melee damage.
However, you'll need to be wary in mid-game when they have Fades and splash damage acid rockets. Marines should be close enough to support but split up enough so that one alien can't run between their legs and chew them to bits. Always have a point man and one man checking six, getting jumped by a skulk and losing a squad of five marines is not only embarassing but puts tremendous strain on your team's progress. Upon entering rooms, always have the point man proceed a few meters ahead of the squad whilst the second man looks upwards for dropping ambushes. Preventing demoralizing attacks keeps high spirit and the players wanting blood. Teamplay is the main factor here and not only direct fire, but suppressive fire will work, if you need to turn a corner but there are chambers or aliens in the way, have a marine provide suppressive fire and distract the alien or chamber while the squad runs around the corner to fire upon it from a different position.
Singular sacrifices aren't all that important and acting like Rambo will probably get you killed. If you want to look good, set a good example. By personal experience, people respect a level headed player who looks after his buddies and isn't afraid to take point or take charge if the situation calls for it. Multiplayer games always depend on human relations, so don't forget to show consideration for your fellow players. They'll help you if you help them, pretty much.
Apologies for my long winded rant.
When I play, I know that if I put my skills to it, I could be a good commander, but my experience in other mods such as DoD (mostly) and a bit of CS, I'm much more effective on the ground leading than I am in Starcraft Mode. I always play on pub games, which is unfortunate since the fate of the marines is so strongly connected to the abilities of the commander, but when you do have a good one, the other necessity is men on teh ground that know how to coordinate with the commander.
On maps like Hera or Caged, my first course of action as a marine is to use my voice comm, ask the commander for a welder, and call out two marines by name and ask them to come with me, adding that if I die, they are to pick up the welder and continue the mission. My course of action at that point is to seal off vents, open up doors, and get a resource node up and operational. I'd say that in almost every case, once I call out two names, those two will follow, sometimes more than two.
I think that players innately understand that they survive better in groups, but the problem is there is a lack of people to lead them. Some players may not know what to do, so they just grab a gun and go looking for somethign to kill. So when someone comes along and says "hey you, come with me" they have no overriding strategic goal, so they comply without complaint. And things get done, which encourages them to continue that course of action.
The most effective marine teams are not just those with good commanders, but also those with 2-4 good combat leaders who rally the others and make the commander's directives happen. And even with a bad commander, if you still have the combat leadership, they can compensate somewhat, provided the Alien team isn't rock solid on their game.
It's just not enough to have a good commander, players are needed who can command on the ground, push the other marines forward, and get things done.
That said, it's a good thing Aliens can't pick out the names of the marines and single out the combat leaders from the others.....
They are necessary to be able to react to any alien attack at any time.
Phase gates are needed to all forward positions on the map. Aliens have the convenience of spawning in 1-3 locations, and using vents and superior movement speed to quickly cover the map. Marines in HA or HMGs (or both) are too slow to even come close to compensating for it.
Unless they have Phase Gates. Immensely important. Saves a lot of time, and time is money, and time is on the Kharaa side.
An extremely important part of the "mobility" side of the doctrine, commanders must build phase gates to all positions, and marines must USE those phase gates.
And additionally, if you are using the phase gates to different locations, stop for a few moments at each one, listen, and check the turrets and turret factory health. See if they've been picking away at them or if any are missing, or if you hear a lot of aliens or see them nearby on motion tracking. Doing this will save a position before it falls if the aliens are concentrating a lot of firepower there, slowly picking away, or preparing to do so.
Most marine positions fall when there is no one there to defend them, or they are neglected for a short time, expecting turrets to do the fighting for them. Give the aliens a chance, and they WILL take down your sites. Build and use phase gates and you will keep them alive, and be able to attack from many different angles.
Identify key positions on each map and try to hold them, not your base. I like Eclipse as an example. Sure, you could turret up your spawn and right outside it. Or you could hold the T-Junction, Triad Generator array, and Station Access Alpha. Or instead of Station Access Alpha, you could hold the hallway with Power Subjunction 3. Or you could grab South Loop and force the aliens to focus on that if they don't want you using it as a staging point to take the Maintence Access hive and then the Compute Core hive.
Does that mean not to defend your base? [Sarcasm] Yes. [/Sarcasm]
The fact is that even if you really like turrets, if you aggressively grab resource nozzles early, including a hive location, you can turret up much more effectively and do so AS you keep up the pressure. Because a bunch of turrets at your spawn may SEEM attractive. However, having a few turrets covering a phase gate and ammo depot outside one of their active hives IS damn effective and gives you a hive location. If you push yourself hard enough, you should have enough resources by the mid to late game where your commander can drop giant piles of heavy armor and weapons and still tap his turret key a dozen times to create sieging areas to take those last hives.
The fact is that turrets are really more effective when paired with phase gates at a frontline location. And while there's no reason this shouldn't ALSO be a resource node (especially points like South Loop on Eclipse), trying to set up such as shop at each resource node is just silly. Of course, mostly your commander has to worry about such things. What he needs from marines is merely for them to go to their waypoints and grab and hold territory, and that's most effectively done in groups.
Of course, I love Phase Gates for another reason as well. To tell the truth, I'd rather not set waypoints for my marines. I can't select them from the scoreboard, there's no select all button, or even select next button. Phase Gates allow me to just tell my men to hop through them to get to where I want. While I certainly WILL set waypoints when I need to, if a Phase Gate allows me to circumvent this process by telling some marines at the spawn to walk into the glowing circle in front of me, I love the convenience and speed. Plus, it's much easier to convice a marine to do so than to follow a waypoint a lot of the time (sadly enough).
Besides general strategies, it's important to listen to your commander. Perhaps he likes to set up a few out-of-the-way resource towers and leave them undefended for a quick boost as you grab something more important (like a hive location). You sitting there and demanding a turret factory and not moving not only doesn't help him, but may even lead the aliens directly to your position. I've seen completely undefended quick grabs at Fright Elevator Access in caged and the Cargo Bay in Hera last for a long, long while, especially if the aliens are occupied elsewhere. As long as he isn't letting over 100 resources pile up in the early game (in which case get him out of there), he's probably got a strategy that's he's working towards.
If only people didn't insist on "mines, Mines, more mines"! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think I found a small problem in this though. For Example, on Eclipse you have 2 entrances to your base. If you send your whole team out (or a large proportion of it) and say 3+ skulks come in the OTHER door you are screwed if they kill the 1 or 2 defending marines. So on a pub server, how do u ballance defence while keeping the pressure on the aleins?
I think I might already know the answer actually, after the big alein rush just send your marines streight 2 a hive, building an rt on the way. The aleins then focous on attacking the hive you've taken (hopefully) and your base is left empty and untouched. At the same time small groups of 2 or 3 marines are going out the other doors 2 gorg hunt and basically keep the aleins at bay. This basically Splits the alein team in two, and with them all spawning 8 seconds appart, grouping up 2 attack you is a very costly stratagy and attacking alone is suicide! As long as your marines can aim this strat is great! I've been beaten by it many times on Eclipse and I alwasy ask who their commander is (so I know what team 2 join next round <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
All commanders seem to do today is mine the main base and send one or 2 guys out on solo missions to cap rts. And when those fail they try to teck up and get jps as fast as possible. On hera today our comm built and Obs, arms lab and proto lab and only started handing out jps when fades started bile bombing our base! We never got a single gun or armor upgrade or motion tracking!
OK, second thing here. About the turrets... You don't need four per node. People think there is no gray area between mines and turrets, but there IS! There IS light here! Instead of investing 113 res (38 for the extra two turrets) simply drop one pack of mines and instruct a faithful marine to place the mines on the ground around the sentries and turret factory. Then, two turrets can hold any one node just fine for quite awhile. I am definately not an advocate of securing EVERY node this way but it definately helps to hold at least two in this fassion, no matter WHAT strategy you are using.
You also severely underestimate the Kharaa's ability to group and go. I have personnally whipped a few public teams into attacking as a huge group. It take some repetition and determination, but it is possilbe. The amazing thing is that the marines are so shocked by the cooperation that they hardly respond at all. And, if the gorges have any brains whatsoever, they will go with their team. There isn't much anything that marines can do short of HA or advanced weaponry to stop 8 skulks and 2 gorges (heal spraying / dropping chambers). Gorges can clear mines, skulks clear marines / Turret farms, and it's all gravy. Unfortunately it seems you haven't had good competition in awhile and you are basing all of your theories around that lack.
Still, you have many excellent points that I incorporate in every game I command or play in. Good fundamentals Rolling Rock.
-OldManRipper
* STAY TOGETHER. Is this point clear yet? The marine st rength is the fact that the ENTIRE marine team can be focused on a single objective. A single location. Never run off alone. Find a buddy, and stay with him. If you see someone building or knifing an alien structure, stand back and guard his back. If you're building and your buddy starts firing, stop and add to the firepower. Kharaa have great difficulty putting all their forces in one place at the same time. Marines do not. Focus all your fire on one location and you WILL drive them back. Go out alone and they'll pick you off, one by one, wasting your time and securing victory in your own hands. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although, sometimes it's necessary to split your forces up. If <i>all</i> your team is off doing something and there's a hole in your main base defenses, say goodbye to your IP's or tech buildings, as a skulk is going to sneak in and nail them.
and ive done this sooooo many times its unreal..
i usually try and eat the PG first in base as it means no rines comming back through pg to shoot me. mine the IPs and PGs rather then the doors in eclipse that will stop the individual skulk rushes tearing down structures
the eat the obs as it only takes a few secs to munch and means they have to rebuild it to build the pg. its really worth trying to hide ur obs commanders
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Hmm, my impression of efficient marine games are when they spread out actually. That requires they know the maps well and are good shots. A few stay at base, and the rest go out in each their direction to scout the map and bag that darn fatteh.
Depends on skill. If you're not a super rambo, and I am not <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> - then pairing up is of course the way to go. The STAY TOGETHER thing is just too one eyed. A good soldier does what his commander tells him BUT he is also aware of the war and can make own decisions, go places etc.
Edit: Oh, and by the way, suggesting one strategy for every situation is just bull. You cant live by one strategy all the time, but i usually find working together in clumps (like 3 people is preferable) is more effective..again, this can vary.
I personally may start awarding medals to people who act as good sargents in game. Not sure how I'm ganna do it...but I will figure it out.