If anything "killed" NS1 it's siege. At one point I couldn't find a populated server at the times I usually play that wasn't running "fun" maps like drop or siege. ;)
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2025720:date=Nov 16 2012, 03:30 PM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ Nov 16 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like Combat, and as long as other people want to play it I think it should stick around. But I think the game and the community should encourage and help people to learn the core gameplay of NS2 before and instead of diving straight into combat-only servers, where they are likely to stay. There needs to be a very clear understanding for those new players that checkers, while fun, is not the same thing as chess.
Ever thought that there might be players out there who just don't like the gameplay of NS2? Why if combat is more popular is it just because it is easier? You seem to think gamers are a bunch of ignorant retards. I happen to think more highly of gamers.
NS is and always will be a niche game, because of the RTS elements, because of the teamwork required, because of the thought and skill. You know there are millions of people who play games to relax, and the taxation of a game like NS2 just isn't fun to those people.
It's ignorant comments like this about your fellow gamers that annoy me more than anything else. I happen to play NS2 because NS1 gave me some great fun with friends. As a game, I'd rather play Quake/Unreal/The Specialists all day long. Hence why I am making a mod that replicates that gameplay. If more people buy NS2 just to play mods, where is the problem in that? UWE know NS2 will never be a proper mainstream game because it is too complicated for what the majority of the worlds gamers are looking for. UWE are relying on mods that bring in different players who otherwise wouldn't touch NS2.
It is ignorance to this fact, and the assumption that everyone in the world would like to play NS2 which shows how mis-guided these type of comments are.
It is no coincedence that casual games are far and away the most played games in the world, and niche games like NS2 will never have the player base of a CS, or a COD.
It is the job of the mods to get these players to shell out for NS2 though to play the mods. If you and the other critics of combat and other mods cannot see that, then you need to take a look at game design. NS2 is massively simplified over NS1 to attract more players. It has done that. Now it requires other simple/casual mods to bring in more revenue so UWE can make further games, and maybe even a NS3 in another ten years.
Seriously think about that. It's no coincidence that the more dumb-downed games like COD get, the more sales they make. Hardcore gamers are like PC-Geeks, a minority, not the norm. If you guys understood that, you'd never make these silly comments about combat killing NS, or that combat will kill NS2.
Also we have been through this 'Discussion' hundreds of times in the Beta, and Charlie has chipped in with his opinion on more than one occasion. UWE actively WANT combat to be made by the community. They want and need these mods to earn enough money to further fund the development of UWE and their own IP's. Too many people fail to see the way things work in the real word, and just come from silly rose-tinted viewpoints that simply aren't true.
The guys have spent so much time, effort and love on this, and people are just crapping on it with all sorts of un-educated and out-right ridiculous arguments. Combat has generally been left alone, as I was the one making all the head-way with my Proving Grounds mod. I took all this flak, dealt with all the slagging off and criticism, and thought it was dead and buried. We had grown up and educated people enough in the beta that they understood this. Now on release it all comes up again and I don't want the guys to have to deal with sort of crap, they do not deserve it.
My blood was boiling when I wrote the last post. This is just a simple straight forward calm explanation. If people understood more about their fellow humans, they would understand that the simpler and easier something is, the larger number of people will enjoy it. It's basic human nature. Most people come to play games to relax, not to get their brains twisted around complex mechanics. NS2 will never get a massive playerbase, in fact, I guarantee that one-day within a year or 2 at most, there will be mods with a higher player base than vanilla NS2. I do not look forward to the cry-baby nonsense that will be spouted on that day...
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2025739:date=Nov 16 2012, 10:04 AM:name=marsvin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marsvin @ Nov 16 2012, 10:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2025739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anything "killed" NS1 it's siege. At one point I couldn't find a populated server at the times I usually play that wasn't running "fun" maps like drop or siege. ;)
Of course NS1 never actually died :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a person that enjoys all sorts of gameplay mods, which I supposedly seem to be in a small minority.
I played combat in the morning before school to keep my twitch skills up, played classic pretty heavily and enjoyed the teamwork involved, and siege was fun for casual weekends. I also frequented marine vs marine and alien vs alien once in a while.
I don't believe it was the other gamemodes that "killed" ns1, it was the gamemode elitism mindset.
Combat is a good mod for those times you want to practice certain equipment/lifeforms or don't have a lot of time. Sure, vanilla NS2 offers a great teamplay experience and I do like it a lot. That being said, we host a combat server and I am trying to get 2 more combat servers to work on some spare hardware. Now, as your predictions of impending combat doom are correct and vanilla NS2 will suck so much that it can't keep a scene then sure, then so be it. Then that will happen and maybe we will end up making combat the scapegoat. My own view is that the mods will keep the game alive a while longer, be they combat or something else.
tl;dr: I support Combat enough to host a few servers, so you may as well list me as a partner in the "combat crime". A nice mod, keep up the good work guys!
Okay, I might be out of line, seeing as I haven't play the combat mode nor play NS1 at all. But my two cents.
TF2. Great game. Thousands of modded servers and they even put out an official new game mode. However, no matter how many servers I see, nor game hours I put in, I know that I can always play normal TF2.
Natural Selection 2. Great game. Not as many servers. All I see every day is the normal mode. That's fine, I love the normal mode for what it is. As long as I can play the normal mode for the game I paid for, I'm good. You want to play combat, fine, go for it. I'll be over here, you be over there, and maybe. Just maybe we might cross over and see how the water is over there.
<!--quoteo(post=2026030:date=Nov 16 2012, 02:29 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Nov 16 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Snip* NS is and always will be a niche game, because of the RTS elements, because of the teamwork required, because of the thought and skill. You know there are millions of people who play games to relax, and the taxation of a game like NS2 just isn't fun to those people....
As a game, I'd rather play Quake/Unreal/The Specialists all day long. Hence why I am making a mod that replicates that gameplay...
UWE know NS2 will never be a proper mainstream game because it is too complicated for what the majority of the worlds gamers are looking for. UWE are relying on mods ...to get these players to shell out for NS2 though to play the mods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people, me included, give massive respect and appreciation to the people who are contributing stuff to this game, including mods, like Combat. Even if its stuff we don't really want to see. So please don't keep pulling this card that no one appreciates your work. You need to be prepared to take criticism on that work, or don't do it at all. You don't live in a vacuum, your actions impact others.
UWE is probably never going to say no to a mod being made for NS2. Why would they? It can only generate more interest in people *purchasing* the game to play those mods, which will let them make more games. One day a mod might become more popular than NS2, that's true. But we the community of NS2 certainly have the right to say if we think something will be bad for the game.
If the above quote is really your attitude, I think YOU need to stop making mods for NS2. Your attitude reveals what most people who dislike combat are afraid of: You don't care about the things that make NS2 unique, you just want to take it and morph it into a copy of every other type of game that exists out there already. If this is the case you should probably just leave and go play those games.
The thing that gets me is your absolutely scathing condescension toward NS2 as a game. You try to justify it by claiming it's just business pragmatism, but you treat NS2 as a worthless idea that needs YOU to save it by taking it and CHANGING it into a copy of EVERY OTHER GAME that has been made as an FPS. You then act like you are saving UWE's chops by doing this, and that they actually NEED you to change their game completely so they can have any hope of being successful.
Please.
This game needs to live or die on its own merits. If you are really going into developing Combat with the attitude you expressed above, you will do more to hurt NS2 than you will to help it. History has proven this: the original combat really did accelerate the death of NS1 due to bifurcation of the community. How much more will this happen to NS2 if the developers of combat think that NS2 is a rotten game that needs to be *fixed* to be worth playing? Those developers might be able to create a great game, but they should go make their own instead of killing the community of the one that has players who want to keep it the way it is.
Mods can bring a game back to beauty...see DayZ and ArmA2 :)
It's nice to see people developing mods for a game we love. Also I think people who like the game but don't have any understanding of the RTS part, making it hard for the real NS2 players to play (new/unskilled players in your team that don't understand the importance of commucation and all this), can play combat and stop disturbing the others. I think it's fine :)
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2026879:date=Nov 17 2012, 03:48 PM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ Nov 17 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2026879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing that gets me is your absolutely scathing condescension toward NS2 as a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wear many hats - NS2 Player, NS2 Clan Manager, NS2 Modder. Obviously setting up and running a competitive team shows how much I look down on NS2 as a game.
You read my words and see what you want to see, not what I am saying, welcome to the internet. As an obvious example I DO NOT DEVELOP COMBAT. Do you think I would be bothering even posting on these forums if I had the attitude about NS2 your mis-guided interpretations of my posts ascribe to me?
Mods cannot kill NS2 anymore than mods killed HL1. If you also believe that Valve was able to grow and become the huge and prolific studio it is today without mods, then you are mis-guided. Same goes for NS2. For UWE to continue to develop the and to grow the team, the sales of NS2 need to far outweigh the playerbase. I have explained that NS2 is a complex game, too much so for the simple gaming fix that most gamers are looking for, and that if the only sales of NS2 were to come from people who want to play NS2, UWE would eventually go out of business. Since when is calling a game niche looking down? Where did I say any of my mods would ever save UWE? Your ability to take my words and translate them into what you want them to say is amazing :)
I love NS2, but tell me what is unique about NS? It is a combination of Gloom and Starcraft. There is nothing unique in NS from a game design perspective. What makes NS unique is what you ascribe to it, and the feelings it provides, nothing in game-design these days is unique, it's all been done to death in the 80's and 90's.
Modding does not change NS2, anymore than NS1 changed Half-Life, mods purely add more variety for gamers. NS2 will live or die by it's own merits, but UWE (notice the difference between UWE - company, and NS2 - game) success is not strictly tied to the success of NS2, as a strong engine and successful mods can lead to them fighting another day, continuing to update NS2, and maybe even making NS3.
To ignore these factors is ignorance and narrow-mindedness. To think I put these above the game, is ignorance and all in your head. I love playing NS2, but it's a complex game, and I love simpler alternatives. To say players will play mods instead of NS2, when the game they are buying is NS2 is to demean the players. Maybe you need to take a deep breath and a step back. Modding is the ability to be really selfish and create a style of gameplay the creator wants to see on an engine, just like NS & CS were selfish creations on HL. To think they will have any impact on NS2 as a game is pure over-simplification of your fellow gamers.
AS for your comments about morphing it into a copy of every other game out there... I am taking it away from it's current slow COD like gameplay. You need to understand, NS2 is more like every other game out there than NS was. My mods are goin the other way, but they do not change NS2 in anyway at all, and to claim my mods will change the NS2 experience for players is absurd and disrespectful to UWE and NS2.
I just have this to say lets agree to disagree, if you don't like mods no one is forcing you to play them. Apparently there are alot of you out there that dosn't like it so I'm pretty sure NS wont die if you keep playing it with eachother. I personally like mods its a fantastic opportunity ( that you don't get with alot of games ) to test new stuff and be creative while meeting others that share the same passion and I wont stop for the sake of that and all the players that actully enjoy our work.
At this time I would like to point your attention to this topic's original poster <b>guitarxe</b> who started the fire ( AGAIN ) and left us in here "fighting" over it, its silly and I hope a mod comes along and closes this, its a matter of opinion and we are clearly going nowhere with it.
I recall co_ maps being refreshing after a long game or two of regular ns_, and then when the co_ map was over, it was time for ns_ again. I remember spending quite a bit of time getting the mapcycle.txt perfect for the server. I kind of wish we could still run them both and seamlessly switch between the two during map changes. It was good for mindless ADD fun.
<!--quoteo(post=2027593:date=Nov 18 2012, 06:29 AM:name=dethovu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dethovu @ Nov 18 2012, 06:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I recall co_ maps being refreshing after a long game or two of regular ns_, and then when the co_ map was over, it was time for ns_ again. I remember spending quite a bit of time getting the mapcycle.txt perfect for the server. I kind of wish we could still run them both and seamlessly switch between the two during map changes. It was good for mindless ADD fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> as far as I know it works to some degree ( from what I understand it has a problem when switching to a map ) and that Greeds and Jim West are working on fixing it so rest assuered its on the way.
<!--quoteo(post=2014786:date=Nov 8 2012, 04:31 AM:name=guitarxe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (guitarxe @ Nov 8 2012, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys remember Combat from NS1? That which killed NS? Well guess what, I already see servers today running it in NS2. Way to go and start the doom count on a game that's just barely released!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combat mode is fine and didn't kill anything. The forums have turned from being a useful resource into a useless drama class.
Comments
If anything "killed" NS1 it's siege. At one point I couldn't find a populated server at the times I usually play that wasn't running "fun" maps like drop or siege. ;)
Of course NS1 never actually died :p
Edit: Grammar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever thought that there might be players out there who just don't like the gameplay of NS2? Why if combat is more popular is it just because it is easier? You seem to think gamers are a bunch of ignorant retards. I happen to think more highly of gamers.
NS is and always will be a niche game, because of the RTS elements, because of the teamwork required, because of the thought and skill. You know there are millions of people who play games to relax, and the taxation of a game like NS2 just isn't fun to those people.
It's ignorant comments like this about your fellow gamers that annoy me more than anything else. I happen to play NS2 because NS1 gave me some great fun with friends. As a game, I'd rather play Quake/Unreal/The Specialists all day long. Hence why I am making a mod that replicates that gameplay. If more people buy NS2 just to play mods, where is the problem in that? UWE know NS2 will never be a proper mainstream game because it is too complicated for what the majority of the worlds gamers are looking for. UWE are relying on mods that bring in different players who otherwise wouldn't touch NS2.
It is ignorance to this fact, and the assumption that everyone in the world would like to play NS2 which shows how mis-guided these type of comments are.
It is no coincedence that casual games are far and away the most played games in the world, and niche games like NS2 will never have the player base of a CS, or a COD.
It is the job of the mods to get these players to shell out for NS2 though to play the mods. If you and the other critics of combat and other mods cannot see that, then you need to take a look at game design. NS2 is massively simplified over NS1 to attract more players. It has done that. Now it requires other simple/casual mods to bring in more revenue so UWE can make further games, and maybe even a NS3 in another ten years.
Seriously think about that. It's no coincidence that the more dumb-downed games like COD get, the more sales they make. Hardcore gamers are like PC-Geeks, a minority, not the norm. If you guys understood that, you'd never make these silly comments about combat killing NS, or that combat will kill NS2.
Also we have been through this 'Discussion' hundreds of times in the Beta, and Charlie has chipped in with his opinion on more than one occasion. UWE actively WANT combat to be made by the community. They want and need these mods to earn enough money to further fund the development of UWE and their own IP's. Too many people fail to see the way things work in the real word, and just come from silly rose-tinted viewpoints that simply aren't true.
The guys have spent so much time, effort and love on this, and people are just crapping on it with all sorts of un-educated and out-right ridiculous arguments. Combat has generally been left alone, as I was the one making all the head-way with my Proving Grounds mod. I took all this flak, dealt with all the slagging off and criticism, and thought it was dead and buried. We had grown up and educated people enough in the beta that they understood this. Now on release it all comes up again and I don't want the guys to have to deal with sort of crap, they do not deserve it.
My blood was boiling when I wrote the last post. This is just a simple straight forward calm explanation. If people understood more about their fellow humans, they would understand that the simpler and easier something is, the larger number of people will enjoy it. It's basic human nature. Most people come to play games to relax, not to get their brains twisted around complex mechanics. NS2 will never get a massive playerbase, in fact, I guarantee that one-day within a year or 2 at most, there will be mods with a higher player base than vanilla NS2. I do not look forward to the cry-baby nonsense that will be spouted on that day...
Of course NS1 never actually died :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a person that enjoys all sorts of gameplay mods, which I supposedly seem to be in a small minority.
I played combat in the morning before school to keep my twitch skills up, played classic pretty heavily and enjoyed the teamwork involved, and siege was fun for casual weekends. I also frequented marine vs marine and alien vs alien once in a while.
I don't believe it was the other gamemodes that "killed" ns1, it was the gamemode elitism mindset.
tl;dr: I support Combat enough to host a few servers, so you may as well list me as a partner in the "combat crime". A nice mod, keep up the good work guys!
TF2. Great game. Thousands of modded servers and they even put out an official new game mode. However, no matter how many servers I see, nor game hours I put in, I know that I can always play normal TF2.
Natural Selection 2. Great game. Not as many servers. All I see every day is the normal mode. That's fine, I love the normal mode for what it is. As long as I can play the normal mode for the game I paid for, I'm good. You want to play combat, fine, go for it. I'll be over here, you be over there, and maybe. Just maybe we might cross over and see how the water is over there.
NS is and always will be a niche game, because of the RTS elements, because of the teamwork required, because of the thought and skill. You know there are millions of people who play games to relax, and the taxation of a game like NS2 just isn't fun to those people....
As a game, I'd rather play Quake/Unreal/The Specialists all day long. Hence why I am making a mod that replicates that gameplay...
UWE know NS2 will never be a proper mainstream game because it is too complicated for what the majority of the worlds gamers are looking for. UWE are relying on mods ...to get these players to shell out for NS2 though to play the mods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people, me included, give massive respect and appreciation to the people who are contributing stuff to this game, including mods, like Combat. Even if its stuff we don't really want to see. So please don't keep pulling this card that no one appreciates your work. You need to be prepared to take criticism on that work, or don't do it at all. You don't live in a vacuum, your actions impact others.
UWE is probably never going to say no to a mod being made for NS2. Why would they? It can only generate more interest in people *purchasing* the game to play those mods, which will let them make more games. One day a mod might become more popular than NS2, that's true. But we the community of NS2 certainly have the right to say if we think something will be bad for the game.
If the above quote is really your attitude, I think YOU need to stop making mods for NS2.
Your attitude reveals what most people who dislike combat are afraid of: You don't care about the things that make NS2 unique, you just want to take it and morph it into a copy of every other type of game that exists out there already. If this is the case you should probably just leave and go play those games.
The thing that gets me is your absolutely scathing condescension toward NS2 as a game. You try to justify it by claiming it's just business pragmatism, but you treat NS2 as a worthless idea that needs YOU to save it by taking it and CHANGING it into a copy of EVERY OTHER GAME that has been made as an FPS. You then act like you are saving UWE's chops by doing this, and that they actually NEED you to change their game completely so they can have any hope of being successful.
Please.
This game needs to live or die on its own merits. If you are really going into developing Combat with the attitude you expressed above, you will do more to hurt NS2 than you will to help it. History has proven this: the original combat really did accelerate the death of NS1 due to bifurcation of the community. How much more will this happen to NS2 if the developers of combat think that NS2 is a rotten game that needs to be *fixed* to be worth playing? Those developers might be able to create a great game, but they should go make their own instead of killing the community of the one that has players who want to keep it the way it is.
It's nice to see people developing mods for a game we love.
Also I think people who like the game but don't have any understanding of the RTS part, making it hard for the real NS2 players to play (new/unskilled players in your team that don't understand the importance of commucation and all this), can play combat and stop disturbing the others. I think it's fine :)
I wear many hats - NS2 Player, NS2 Clan Manager, NS2 Modder. Obviously setting up and running a competitive team shows how much I look down on NS2 as a game.
You read my words and see what you want to see, not what I am saying, welcome to the internet. As an obvious example I DO NOT DEVELOP COMBAT. Do you think I would be bothering even posting on these forums if I had the attitude about NS2 your mis-guided interpretations of my posts ascribe to me?
Mods cannot kill NS2 anymore than mods killed HL1. If you also believe that Valve was able to grow and become the huge and prolific studio it is today without mods, then you are mis-guided. Same goes for NS2. For UWE to continue to develop the and to grow the team, the sales of NS2 need to far outweigh the playerbase. I have explained that NS2 is a complex game, too much so for the simple gaming fix that most gamers are looking for, and that if the only sales of NS2 were to come from people who want to play NS2, UWE would eventually go out of business. Since when is calling a game niche looking down? Where did I say any of my mods would ever save UWE? Your ability to take my words and translate them into what you want them to say is amazing :)
I love NS2, but tell me what is unique about NS? It is a combination of Gloom and Starcraft. There is nothing unique in NS from a game design perspective. What makes NS unique is what you ascribe to it, and the feelings it provides, nothing in game-design these days is unique, it's all been done to death in the 80's and 90's.
Modding does not change NS2, anymore than NS1 changed Half-Life, mods purely add more variety for gamers. NS2 will live or die by it's own merits, but UWE (notice the difference between UWE - company, and NS2 - game) success is not strictly tied to the success of NS2, as a strong engine and successful mods can lead to them fighting another day, continuing to update NS2, and maybe even making NS3.
To ignore these factors is ignorance and narrow-mindedness. To think I put these above the game, is ignorance and all in your head. I love playing NS2, but it's a complex game, and I love simpler alternatives. To say players will play mods instead of NS2, when the game they are buying is NS2 is to demean the players. Maybe you need to take a deep breath and a step back. Modding is the ability to be really selfish and create a style of gameplay the creator wants to see on an engine, just like NS & CS were selfish creations on HL. To think they will have any impact on NS2 as a game is pure over-simplification of your fellow gamers.
AS for your comments about morphing it into a copy of every other game out there... I am taking it away from it's current slow COD like gameplay. You need to understand, NS2 is more like every other game out there than NS was. My mods are goin the other way, but they do not change NS2 in anyway at all, and to claim my mods will change the NS2 experience for players is absurd and disrespectful to UWE and NS2.
I personally like mods its a fantastic opportunity ( that you don't get with alot of games ) to test new stuff and be creative while meeting others that share the same passion and I wont stop for the sake of that and all the players that actully enjoy our work.
At this time I would like to point your attention to this topic's original poster <b>guitarxe</b> who started the fire ( AGAIN ) and left us in here "fighting" over it, its silly and I hope a mod comes along and closes this, its a matter of opinion and we are clearly going nowhere with it.
as far as I know it works to some degree ( from what I understand it has a problem when switching to a map ) and that Greeds and Jim West are working on fixing it so rest assuered its on the way.
Combat mode is fine and didn't kill anything. The forums have turned from being a useful resource into a useless drama class.