<!--quoteo(post=2016094:date=Nov 9 2012, 01:06 AM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 9 2012, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grazr, i've played fade without carapace a total of ONE time since the game was released. He's complete garbage without it. I've been playing this game for over a year now, I think I know what fades are supposed to do -_-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that's my point. You say you didn't play the game for ages and the game has gone through major balance changes. I'm not saying Fade is perfect as it is right now, but i think the Developers and competitive playtesters who've developed the game over 2 years have a better idea of what the "release candidate" Fade is supposed to do/be than you or i. We can give feedback, but i'm just saying it sounds more like you're just being out played or taking bad evolution choices.
Weapons 3 marines are a real pain in the arse for all aliens, not just Fade, and observatory spam makes it easy for marines to predict even Fade incursions; so i'm not willing to put all the blame on bad Fade balance. Can he afford to be cheaper? Yes. Is he a useless evolution? No. Even the most experience-less player can rack up 6:1 KD ratios with a fade providing they understand when a fight is in their favour; and i think being able to take on 3 marines at a time with no more than 1 shotgun is pretty fair for a fade when most teams only consist of 6-8 players in total.
<!--quoteo(post=2016102:date=Nov 9 2012, 12:07 AM:name=Cane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cane @ Nov 9 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're joking right? How is that supposed to be evidence of the fade being good? People defending the fade just has to play the game some more and preferably the 200+ hours a lot of has spent in NS1.
In fact I feel disgusted by all the people coming here without even having heard about NS1 and then dictating about what is fine and not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in fairness i didn't strictly say that it's evidence that the fade is good, in the sense of "look at this skilled player video, proof! the end!".
some guy said it's not evidence, and only then did i mention evidence - as it's truly more solid evidence than the 'absent' video to demonstrate that fade is weak.
also, please leave the contemptuous and belittling attitude at the door. the NS1 fade is irrelevant to this game, as this is NS2 - not NS1: the remake.
<!--quoteo(post=2014945:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:42 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Nov 8 2012, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just had to respond to the title: 10 minutes IS late game. I thought NS2 was designed to be 15-20 minute rounds? Late game is not defined by Exo trains or Onos rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And here in lies the root of all our problems.
If 10 min is late game then wtf is with people whinging about 6-7 min onos? Thats mid to late game so when they should be hitting the field.
Fades sadly got nerfed to try to encourage people to use the badly nerfed onos, in the end they buffed the onos but didn't show the fade as much love. Due to this most people will skip fade and go onos as they are more likely to live longer and do more damage for the team. Make Fades scary again and we will see fewer onos and the onos egg rush wont be the only viable alien strategy.
We are not crying wanting the NS1 fade back but rather we want to see a fade closer to what we had probably 4-6 months ago, not long after the onos first appeared. A fade that was able to do some serious damage before needing to run away.
I don't even necessarily want the Fade to get a lot of kills... I just want the marines to be terrified of him. Right now as a marine I'd rather see a Fade than a skulk tbh. I know I can make him turn and run before he kills me, cause he's more scared of me than I am of him. Skulks? They aren't scared of me. They're willing to die at my feet if they have to.
fade looks pretty nice to me... if played right. (dont mean to pick on wiry, but this is like the only first-person 'skilled' footage i've seen)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> He spent less than 5 minutes as Fade (he died, go figure), got like 2 kills, and spent the rest of the time of at the hive healing. ROFL.
I've been leaning more and more just towards a resource-amount change. Currently, the equation seems to be that: Immense Skill and practice + Immense Resources gets you a super-powered killing machine.
People have been talking in a number of ways of reducing the left side (so it's easier to get more kills) but there is a bit more mention of just making Fades cheaper.
That way when someone newly discovers this game, they can have discussions like this: "Fade? Oh, I played him a bit. He's decent I guess for 20 resources, but isn't really useful for much." "WHAT?? Dude. Fade is the most under-played alien class. Even if I have 30 for a Lerk, I play as Fade." "What? Why? He's useless though, takes forever to evolve, and dies in like two hits." "You just have to know how to use him right. Here, let's jump in a practice game..."
At the high-end resource level is generally an indication that the game is being played by newer players who don't manage resources enough to "just-barely" kill the enemy. (There was a thread about how exos "aren't a big part of strategy", since anyone with the spare resources to get them could probably have already won if they were a super-pro commander). That's why classes like the Onos are pretty simple and take very little skill (rightfully so, I'd say).
Besides which, I think it makes sense for commanders to make decisions like "We have 2 Onos! Let's rush in there and take them out!" rather than "We have 4 fades!....eh...are any of you guys good at Fade? If yes, we'll crush them, if not, we stand no chance."
What would you think of a fade that does more damage when using its abilities (shadowstep and blink)?
That is shadowstep + swipe = 120 dmg and blink + swipe = 100 dmg?
Read the whole thing here :o <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123940" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123940</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2016224:date=Nov 9 2012, 01:46 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 9 2012, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He spent less than 5 minutes as Fade (he died, go figure), got like 2 kills, and spent the rest of the time of at the hive healing. ROFL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you say that like number of kills always directly translates to effectiveness... eh...?
i thought it went without saying (but i guess not), that in the video your attention should be drawn to the slick movement and smart decision-making when facing >1 marine. it also shows that fade is used by comp players.
ergo don't expect fade to be 'free marine killz lolz' and you won't be disappointed.
It shouldn't be free marine kills, but I should feel significantly beefier as a Fade than as a skulk. He's the 2nd largest life form in the game and I honestly think I'd have a better chance at killing someone with a gorge half the time.
<!--quoteo(post=2016262:date=Nov 9 2012, 04:25 AM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 9 2012, 04:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It shouldn't be free marine kills, but I should feel significantly beefier as a Fade than as a skulk. He's the 2nd largest life form in the game and I honestly think I'd have a better chance at killing someone with a gorge half the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hard to take your posts about this argument seriously when it's stuff like this.
<!--quoteo(post=2016258:date=Nov 8 2012, 10:20 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 8 2012, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you say that like number of kills always directly translates to effectiveness... eh...?
i thought it went without saying (but i guess not), that in the video your attention should be drawn to the slick movement and smart decision-making when facing >1 marine. it also shows that fade is used by comp players.
ergo don't expect fade to be 'free marine killz lolz' and you won't be disappointed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My point is that there were more minutes spent healing, than there were marine kills.
<!--quoteo(post=2016332:date=Nov 8 2012, 07:19 PM:name=Rautapalli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rautapalli @ Nov 8 2012, 07:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's hard to take your posts about this argument seriously when it's stuff like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? As a gorge I don't have to worry about dying so much and am more free to pursue kills while also fulfilling my lifeforms role on my team. Playing fade is about 20% attacking 80% running and hiding, I'm saying it should be about 50/50. Is that really a ridiculous thing to ask for?
<!--quoteo(post=2016354:date=Nov 9 2012, 05:32 AM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 9 2012, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? As a gorge I don't have to worry about dying so much and am more free to pursue kills while also fulfilling my lifeforms role on my team. Playing fade is about 20% attacking 80% running and hiding, I'm saying it should be about 50/50. Is that really a ridiculous thing to ask for?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the fade is easily the best class you can use when it comes to killing marines. I don't know if these statistics of yours actually have anything behind them, but yes, the fade is a hit and run class but is still more effective at gaining kills than even the onos since as a fade you can easily escape pretty much every single fight if you play it right. By the time the onos has attacked a location and runs back to heal the fade has done the same thing probably about three times already.
If you're having so much trouble at killing marines as a fade I'd argue that the problem is you, not the fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2016377:date=Nov 9 2012, 03:46 AM:name=Rautapalli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rautapalli @ Nov 9 2012, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the fade is a hit and run class but is still more effective at gaining kills than even the onos<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2016377:date=Nov 8 2012, 07:46 PM:name=Rautapalli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rautapalli @ Nov 8 2012, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're having so much trouble at killing marines as a fade I'd argue that the problem is you, not the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, I'm bad and should feel bad, that's why there are so many posts and threads about this...
Look, I can get kills as a fade. It's not that hard. You can totally kill some guys as fade. That doesn't mean he's ever a good choice for your team, and if you think fades are better at killing marines than Onos then you're just wrong man.
<!--quoteo(post=2016380:date=Nov 9 2012, 05:49 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 9 2012, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol... No.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=2016381:date=Nov 9 2012, 05:49 AM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 9 2012, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right, I'm bad and should feel bad, that's why there are so many posts and threads about this...
Look, I can get kills as a fade. It's not that hard. You can totally kill some guys as fade. That doesn't mean he's ever a good choice for your team, and if you think fades are better at killing marines than Onos then you're just wrong man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a single engagement? No. Over a longer duration? Yes. If you use blink in bursts while moving around the map you can move nearly as fast as by just holding the blink button down. This way you can enter engagements on the other side of the map and arrive with nearly full energy, which means you have more than enough of energy for the fight and safely getting out if you don't do a major ######up. Not to mention jetpackers which the Onos is nearly helpless against if the jetpackers know what they are doing, while for the fade they are easy pickings.
<!--quoteo(post=2016377:date=Nov 8 2012, 10:46 PM:name=Rautapalli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rautapalli @ Nov 8 2012, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the fade is easily the best class you can use when it comes to killing marines. I don't know if these statistics of yours actually have anything behind them, but yes, the fade is a hit and run class but is still more effective at gaining kills than even the onos since as a fade you can easily escape pretty much every single fight if you play it right. By the time the onos has attacked a location and runs back to heal the fade has done the same thing probably about three times already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You are describing NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2016391:date=Nov 9 2012, 03:56 AM:name=Rautapalli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rautapalli @ Nov 9 2012, 03:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In a single engagement? No. Over a longer duration? Yes. If you use blink in bursts while moving around the map you can move nearly as fast as by just holding the blink button down. This way you can enter engagements on the other side of the map and arrive with nearly full energy, which means you have more than enough of energy for the fight and safely getting out if you don't do a major ######up. Not to mention jetpackers which the Onos is nearly helpless against if the jetpackers know what they are doing, while for the fade they are easy pickings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol... No...
Im not even going to bother explaining to you just how wrong you are.
Im not even going to bother explaining to you just how wrong you are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why do you even bother posting? You're not contributing to the thread in any way or form. If we pit a fade against, say three marines vs onos in the same situation, the onos is of course more efficient (except for jp). But the situation is totally different when we're talking about full matches where the fade's superior mobility will be a huge pro over the onos.
"lol no you're wrong"
Also I'd like to again make clear that I'm only talking about gaining kills. I'm not debating whether the fade or the onos is more useful for actually winning the game, if that was the case I'd agree that the onos is a better choice in most situations.
Comments
But that's my point. You say you didn't play the game for ages and the game has gone through major balance changes. I'm not saying Fade is perfect as it is right now, but i think the Developers and competitive playtesters who've developed the game over 2 years have a better idea of what the "release candidate" Fade is supposed to do/be than you or i. We can give feedback, but i'm just saying it sounds more like you're just being out played or taking bad evolution choices.
Weapons 3 marines are a real pain in the arse for all aliens, not just Fade, and observatory spam makes it easy for marines to predict even Fade incursions; so i'm not willing to put all the blame on bad Fade balance. Can he afford to be cheaper? Yes. Is he a useless evolution? No. Even the most experience-less player can rack up 6:1 KD ratios with a fade providing they understand when a fight is in their favour; and i think being able to take on 3 marines at a time with no more than 1 shotgun is pretty fair for a fade when most teams only consist of 6-8 players in total.
In fact I feel disgusted by all the people coming here without even having heard about NS1 and then dictating about what is fine and not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in fairness i didn't strictly say that it's evidence that the fade is good, in the sense of "look at this skilled player video, proof! the end!".
some guy said it's not evidence, and only then did i mention evidence - as it's truly more solid evidence than the 'absent' video to demonstrate that fade is weak.
also, please leave the contemptuous and belittling attitude at the door. the NS1 fade is irrelevant to this game, as this is NS2 - not NS1: the remake.
10 minutes IS late game. I thought NS2 was designed to be 15-20 minute rounds? Late game is not defined by Exo trains or Onos rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And here in lies the root of all our problems.
If 10 min is late game then wtf is with people whinging about 6-7 min onos?
Thats mid to late game so when they should be hitting the field.
Fades sadly got nerfed to try to encourage people to use the badly nerfed onos, in the end they buffed the onos but didn't show the fade as much love.
Due to this most people will skip fade and go onos as they are more likely to live longer and do more damage for the team.
Make Fades scary again and we will see fewer onos and the onos egg rush wont be the only viable alien strategy.
We are not crying wanting the NS1 fade back but rather we want to see a fade closer to what we had probably 4-6 months ago, not long after the onos first appeared. A fade that was able to do some serious damage before needing to run away.
fade looks pretty nice to me... if played right. (dont mean to pick on wiry, but this is like the only first-person 'skilled' footage i've seen)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He spent less than 5 minutes as Fade (he died, go figure), got like 2 kills, and spent the rest of the time of at the hive healing. ROFL.
Currently, the equation seems to be that:
Immense Skill and practice + Immense Resources gets you a super-powered killing machine.
People have been talking in a number of ways of reducing the left side (so it's easier to get more kills) but there is a bit more mention of just making Fades cheaper.
That way when someone newly discovers this game, they can have discussions like this:
"Fade? Oh, I played him a bit. He's decent I guess for 20 resources, but isn't really useful for much."
"WHAT?? Dude. Fade is the most under-played alien class. Even if I have 30 for a Lerk, I play as Fade."
"What? Why? He's useless though, takes forever to evolve, and dies in like two hits."
"You just have to know how to use him right. Here, let's jump in a practice game..."
At the high-end resource level is generally an indication that the game is being played by newer players who don't manage resources enough to "just-barely" kill the enemy. (There was a thread about how exos "aren't a big part of strategy", since anyone with the spare resources to get them could probably have already won if they were a super-pro commander). That's why classes like the Onos are pretty simple and take very little skill (rightfully so, I'd say).
Besides which, I think it makes sense for commanders to make decisions like "We have 2 Onos! Let's rush in there and take them out!" rather than "We have 4 fades!....eh...are any of you guys good at Fade? If yes, we'll crush them, if not, we stand no chance."
What would you think of a fade that does more damage when using its abilities (shadowstep and blink)?
That is shadowstep + swipe = 120 dmg and blink + swipe = 100 dmg?
Read the whole thing here :o
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123940" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123940</a>
you say that like number of kills always directly translates to effectiveness... eh...?
i thought it went without saying (but i guess not), that in the video your attention should be drawn to the slick movement and smart decision-making when facing >1 marine. it also shows that fade is used by comp players.
ergo don't expect fade to be 'free marine killz lolz' and you won't be disappointed.
It's hard to take your posts about this argument seriously when it's stuff like this.
i thought it went without saying (but i guess not), that in the video your attention should be drawn to the slick movement and smart decision-making when facing >1 marine. it also shows that fade is used by comp players.
ergo don't expect fade to be 'free marine killz lolz' and you won't be disappointed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point is that there were more minutes spent healing, than there were marine kills.
Why? As a gorge I don't have to worry about dying so much and am more free to pursue kills while also fulfilling my lifeforms role on my team. Playing fade is about 20% attacking 80% running and hiding, I'm saying it should be about 50/50. Is that really a ridiculous thing to ask for?
Because the fade is easily the best class you can use when it comes to killing marines. I don't know if these statistics of yours actually have anything behind them, but yes, the fade is a hit and run class but is still more effective at gaining kills than even the onos since as a fade you can easily escape pretty much every single fight if you play it right. By the time the onos has attacked a location and runs back to heal the fade has done the same thing probably about three times already.
If you're having so much trouble at killing marines as a fade I'd argue that the problem is you, not the fade.
Lol... No.
Right, I'm bad and should feel bad, that's why there are so many posts and threads about this...
Look, I can get kills as a fade. It's not that hard. You can totally kill some guys as fade. That doesn't mean he's ever a good choice for your team, and if you think fades are better at killing marines than Onos then you're just wrong man.
<!--quoteo(post=2016381:date=Nov 9 2012, 05:49 AM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 9 2012, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right, I'm bad and should feel bad, that's why there are so many posts and threads about this...
Look, I can get kills as a fade. It's not that hard. You can totally kill some guys as fade. That doesn't mean he's ever a good choice for your team, and if you think fades are better at killing marines than Onos then you're just wrong man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a single engagement? No. Over a longer duration? Yes. If you use blink in bursts while moving around the map you can move nearly as fast as by just holding the blink button down. This way you can enter engagements on the other side of the map and arrive with nearly full energy, which means you have more than enough of energy for the fight and safely getting out if you don't do a major ######up. Not to mention jetpackers which the Onos is nearly helpless against if the jetpackers know what they are doing, while for the fade they are easy pickings.
Lol... No...
Im not even going to bother explaining to you just how wrong you are.
Im not even going to bother explaining to you just how wrong you are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why do you even bother posting? You're not contributing to the thread in any way or form. If we pit a fade against, say three marines vs onos in the same situation, the onos is of course more efficient (except for jp). But the situation is totally different when we're talking about full matches where the fade's superior mobility will be a huge pro over the onos.
"lol no you're wrong"
Also I'd like to again make clear that I'm only talking about gaining kills. I'm not debating whether the fade or the onos is more useful for actually winning the game, if that was the case I'd agree that the onos is a better choice in most situations.