<!--quoteo(post=2016513:date=Nov 9 2012, 12:13 AM:name=Soli Deo Gloria)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soli Deo Gloria @ Nov 9 2012, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(alien comm)...forces (aliens) to choose just the overall general upgrade making playstyle very linear<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's the thing - it's much worse than that. While you can't change upgrades on the fly, Khaara players don't even get to choose the upgrade they get stuck with unless the comm for some reason personally consults them and only them. So it's a double whammy. Not only have you lost the adaptability of NS1 (which incidentally makes balancing the powers very hard, because they all have to be precisely equal in power in all situations or they don't get used ever), but you have lost even the power to choose how you don't get to choose. Yo Dawg.
<!--quoteo(post=2016523:date=Nov 9 2012, 12:21 AM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Nov 9 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@OP: That's the point, Alien comm was never supposed to be a high APM guy, issuing orders every second, he just guides players and helps indirectly them via upgrades and structures. The same why he does not require them to build said structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hang on, if he's not issuing orders every second, why have him at all? In that case, the old gorge model is better. Alein comm needs to be high apm, or he's redundant, and the guy doing the job is giving up engaging play to click a few times. NS1 commanding left me in a hot sweat and breathing hard at the end of a match. That's the least what I expect if I'm going to sit the round out and not shoot anything.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know, that's like saying Pylons in starcraft are tacked on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course it's nothing like that at all.
In Starcraft, you can always 'build additional pylons'. A so-called "artosis pylon", where one pylon powers several structures, is a grave newbie mistake. Yet NS marines are forced to have every base, including their main, in a state of perpetual artosis-pylon. Further, a protoss player can put pylons anywhere on the map he pleases, whereas power conduits are in fixed locations, cannot be moved or changed ever and in fact will be on the same spot in every game forever more. It's contrived and stifles originality and choice-driven gameplay, will make maps stale faster. "Target his weak spot captain!". Sheesh. I have no idea why they thought it was a good mechanic.
Finally, it costs the marines no resources to make, so killing it when it isn't powering anything is a total waste of time. Protoss pylons cost hard minerals to make, and so were always worthwhile to kill.
A system where protoss had 5 fixed pylons across the map, and had to make their bases there at all times, and they were the same in every map, and you could never make another one...that would be tacked-on and lame.
The "pylon argument" was already used to defend the power nodes, it is kind of funny, when you think how stupid stracraft would be with pre-build pylons all over the map.
Something you need to think of as well is that mapper need to fit their map in a bunch of perpendicular rectangles, it kind of constrain what you can do, specially when you think about 3D.
Here an old solution that I proposed to remove power nodes:
For the power system I think I got a nice solution:
1) The comm can drop lights. There is already some props of large spot lights so it would not require a lot of work. It will replace a static light system by something much more dynamic, the comm has to think where to build the lights: more freedom, people like freedom. The lights can be attacked and destroyed, so you would get this cinematic effect of lights going down. It would also allow mappers to have some dark area in the map since it can be countered. Dynamic lighting in the engine, dynamic lights in the game; make sense.
2) Rename the power pack to "sentry power system", it will power the turrets only. Destroying it disable the sentries. It allows to have a weak point in turret spammed area. It also allow the comm to choose a good spot for the "sentry power system" instead of having a fixed position on the map.
3) Use building loss of power animation to show when a building get recycled.
4) Remove power nodes since they are no longer needed.
It's a nice solution because it requires (relatively) little work and recycle most of what has already been done: no good work gets wasted. By splitting the different function of power nodes (lights, turret factory, base destroyer, ..) it also facilitate balance.
<!--quoteo(post=2016513:date=Nov 9 2012, 05:13 AM:name=Soli Deo Gloria)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soli Deo Gloria @ Nov 9 2012, 05:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it would be an amazing idea if power nodes couldn't be built or destroyed by players, but existed statically from the start of the game in every room, and then as alien infestation spread into a room it would slowly take over the node taking down the power. Then, for the marines to recover power in that room, they have to clear away the infestation and then repair the node as per usual.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I realised while reading this that this is how I intuitively expected it to work the first time I heard about the power system, the power nodes are just really un-fun to deal with from both sides even if they're the best way to take out a marine base if you rush it with a lot of bodies.
I think power nodes are more interesting now that they're relatively difficult to repair. It gives them a gameplay purpose in that it's something the comm can't just drop and have five dudes build in half a second if it goes down, like you can with a phase gate. It gives the aliens a stronger home turf advantage, although I've never liked the design that marines have to capture an area first before the aliens can kill the power. IMO all power nodes should start out built, and infestation should damage them automatically(to reduce tedium of skulks killing them at the start).
<!--quoteo(post=2014112:date=Nov 7 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Daemonlaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daemonlaud @ Nov 7 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks were hardly tanks in NS1, but there was always time to reposition or respond when a marine entered the room before you evaporated. Scouting was practical. A marine at range could not seriously damage you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is nowhere to hide in the new maps. The ceilings are low, the rooms are tiny, there are fewer random connective vents that are inaccesable to marines on foot, and there are no things to get behind or on top of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap used to be a late-game thing in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cloak <i>used</i> to be a viable alternative early-game play in NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
???
These things just aren't true. Pistoling Skulks feels just as effective as it did in NS1. Except you can't bind it to mouse wheel which meant instant death for Skulks. Leap was never a late-game thing, except maybe in the sense that the game was about to end when Aliens got the 2nd hive and/or Fades (in some/many NS1 versions). I really have no idea what would make you think there's no/less places to hide in. Cloak viable in NS1? Lol nope. It was always the same noob trap as it is now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Suggestions to address the above: 0) Let aliens select individual upgrades, the commander merely selects the chamber.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I agree with this, even more so since they are going to bring back the third choice in upgrades (hypermutation/feign death/whatever) and that will just exasperate the problem. Currently if an upgrade choice is even slightly less useful than some other -- and regeneration and cloak are a LOT -- there's absolutely no reason for the comm to build them until late in the game when they have lots of res and it doesn't really matter anymore. And the progression of 1) build a hive 2) evolve a hive 3) build a spur 4) research celerity is a bit clunky and obviously has one step too many in it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Reduce power of tier 1 LMG, and give skulks more armor. Increase marine life comensurately and thereby slow down battle, allowing skill to enter in to combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure this would just make players with insane aim even more obnoxious at killing Skulks. :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) Make rooms much larger<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just unfeasible. They're not gonna completely remake all of the maps -- which it would require to implement that properly and consistently.
<!--quoteo(post=2015095:date=Nov 8 2012, 09:42 AM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 8 2012, 09:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Though it won't fix every problem, I guarantee going back to the old model of having the Gorge construct alien bases will improve the situation. People don't want to play Aliens because all of their lifeforms take a degree of skill greater than a Marine. The Gorge was the perfect lifeform for people new to the game who wanted to sit it out for a bit and learn from afar. Compare him to the Engineer in Team Fortress games. Beginners gravitate heavily toward this class because it can still contribute without having to take the same level of risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really don't remember the ridiculous amounts of rage and insults being shouted whenever a new player went Gorge and dared to waste res on an OC in the first five minutes of the game? Or, god forbid, built an SC and locked the whole team into that tech? I still remember getting a friend to try out the game: he Gorged, didn't build an RT or whatever in the first 30 seconds of the game, got raged at and didn't touch the game since. At least with the Alien commander the noobs understand intuitively that comm is the single most important member of the team and probably won't hop in until they have a clue about what's going on.
What you wrote actually pretty much describes the NS2 Gorge. He is NOT useless unlike you people keep on insisting, but he can't screw up the game for the whole team either.
<!--quoteo(post=2017326:date=Nov 9 2012, 01:59 PM:name=snaga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snaga @ Nov 9 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017326"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These things just aren't true. Pistoling Skulks feels just as effective as it did in NS1. Except you can't bind it to mouse wheel which meant instant death for Skulks. Leap was never a late-game thing, except maybe in the sense that the game was about to end when Aliens got the 2nd hive and/or Fades (in some/many NS1 versions).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I beg to differ. The fight for the second hive was a good part of the game, and for that you had no leap and it was exciting lmg-vs-skulk action, with no extra powers.
If you had a carapace jump over the marine weapon upgrades (always the case until mid-game), you could take several bullets, and being tickled at range was not instantly crippling. The pistol was powerful, but the scroll-wheel trick made it basically a sniper rifle - one shot, reload. But because there's no carapace levels now, there's no way to get and maintain an advantage anywhere at all, and as soon as upgrades happen skulks are relegated to cannon fodder.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really have no idea what would make you think there's no/less places to hide in. Cloak viable in NS1? Lol nope. It was always the same noob trap as it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, my experience was different. I find the maps all have small rooms with low ceilings and no features that actually provide cover or things to go behind or under. Vents don't provide shortcuts between locations, but long detours that seem to be trying to equalise the map control of both teams, rather than embracing that asymmetry. I can never morph an egg safely in any room, because there's nowhere to put it. In fact if you try and morph too close to an object, it just sticks your egg out in the open!
As for Cloaking, sure if a random first-time player dropped a sensory first, you were probably screwed. But that almost never happened - defense chamber was the default for any pub game. When I played clan wars, however, or when I got on with two or three mates on voice in the same server, we often used sensory openings on certain maps. If you rushed to level 2 sens quickly, you could set up almost uncounterable ambushes and wipe out the first 2-3 marine pushes with brutal speed, then res cap the map behind your aggression. The next trick was to aggressively place the next sens tower with OC in the obvious marine expansion location, and they would have to blow several scans if they wanted to clear it out. The sens quickly became redundant after that, but it was an effective opening gambit, and let you get a huge jump even if only 2 or 3 of your team were taking advantage of it properly.
This sort of play doesn't work because skulks are too weak, maps are ambush unfriendly, and there's no point trying to set up for a mid-game that doesn't exist.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just unfeasible. They're not gonna completely remake all of the maps -- which it would require to implement that properly and consistently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know it sounds like a lot of work, but the current maps actually form the last straw for the alien game for me. They are just all so one-dimensional and boring! NS1 maps were a series of tight quarters situations all connecting to MASSIVE open spaces. The flat open spaces and straight corridors were marine-friendly, the featured spaces were lerk and skulk friendly, and the high spaces were fade friendly.
All the best memories I have from NS1 were fighting over those huge rooms. Every map had a massive room or three that would provoke interesting fights and tactics. Now even if they wanted to make a big room, it would be bad for marines unless they make it even more simple by placing res and power close together, otherwise marines can't cover both.
The new maps all come in one flavour - claustrophobic. All the time. In every room. On every map. Even the hive rooms are cramped, with low ceilings. There are even annoying out-of-bounds invisible walls on the maps that appear to have some actual space on them! It's boring and culls a lot of the strategy out of the game, as well as making alien gameplay more simplistic.
<!--quoteo(post=2017368:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:30 PM:name=snaga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snaga @ Nov 9 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still remember getting a friend to try out the game: he Gorged, didn't build an RT or whatever in the first 30 seconds of the game, got raged at and didn't touch the game since. At least with the Alien commander the noobs understand intuitively that comm is the single most important member of the team and probably won't hop in until they have a clue about what's going on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have to ask, why didn't you tell your first-time friend not to play gorge? And certainly if he did go gorge, what to build? There's nothing you say here that wouldn't be solved with a warning pop-up message for rookie-flagged players when they try to morph gorge, saying that this is a key role and recommended for experienced players.
I am not demanding a return to the NS1 gorge, but I am asking for a solution that restores the style of play and thematic cohesion that the Khaara had in NS1, and if that is to go back to NS1, so be it.
<!--quoteo(post=2017862:date=Nov 10 2012, 06:06 AM:name=Daemonlaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daemonlaud @ Nov 10 2012, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to ask, why didn't you tell your first-time friend not to play gorge? And certainly if he did go gorge, what to build? There's nothing you say here that wouldn't be solved with a warning pop-up message for rookie-flagged players when they try to morph gorge, saying that this is a key role and recommended for experienced players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't remember how it went exactly. He probably didn't go Gorge straight away in his first game. But when he did, he got flamed out of the server before even having time to find the friggin button that would build a DC. I mean in literally less than 30 seconds.
And the whole point Ansom was trying to make was that NS1 Gorges somehow were a good class for low-skilled new players who didn't know wtf. No, they were not. Even in a game where you had an experienced Gorge to build the chambers and another one who would go Gorge for a second just to drop the hive, any noob Gorge would get rage just for daring to evolve into a Gorge. Why would they get rage just for that, you ask? Because Gorges soaked up three times more res from the team's res flow than other lifeforms and thus an extra Gorge would screw up things for everyone else. A horrible mechanic. Although I can't remember if they changed it at some point.
<!--quoteo(post=2017862:date=Nov 10 2012, 06:06 AM:name=Daemonlaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daemonlaud @ Nov 10 2012, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, my experience was different. I find the maps all have small rooms with low ceilings and no features that actually provide cover or things to go behind or under. Vents don't provide shortcuts between locations, but long detours that seem to be trying to equalise the map control of both teams, rather than embracing that asymmetry. I can never morph an egg safely in any room, because there's nowhere to put it. In fact if you try and morph too close to an object, it just sticks your egg out in the open!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I just don't know what to say. :) That just isn't my experience in NS1 and NS2. Granted, a few old maps had a couple of really huge rooms, like ns_nothing and ns_bast if I recall correctly. But most of them really didn't. Veil and Eclipse were the most played maps in NS1 and they mostly looked like this:
It's still obvious that ns2_veil is an old map, even though it's not bad by all means. In the new maps there's at least Courtyard in Docking, Cave in Mineshaft and Cargo in Veil which are all quite large. I do agree the invisible ceilings are a bit stupid. And regarding your second point, the amount of line-of-sight breaking props, crates, nooks and crannies and dark areas etc seems pretty large compared to most NS1 maps:
I dunno man. Of course there's nothing wrong with having maps like Nothing and I'm sure a lot of awesome, different maps will come. Not to mention people are already working on remaking many NS1 maps. I just don't think it somehow makes the current maps <b>unplayable</b>, if they are of a slightly different style than (some) NS1 maps.
<!--quoteo(post=2018476:date=Nov 10 2012, 12:10 PM:name=snaga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snaga @ Nov 10 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno man. Of course there's nothing wrong with having maps like Nothing and I'm sure a lot of awesome, different maps will come. Not to mention people are already working on remaking many NS1 maps. I just don't think it somehow makes the current maps <b>unplayable</b>, if they are of a slightly different style than (some) NS1 maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey I'm not trying to be hyperbolic. The new maps aren't 'unplayable'. In fact I wouldn't mind one or two tighter, more Ridley Scott's Alien type maps, but every single freaking map in the pool has like one average sized room and nothing else but shoeboxes and caves. Even the larger of the maps somehow manage to feel cluttered and small without being tactically interesting.
Back in the day, maps like Hera and even eclipse had large spacious rooms, but with many entrance points and other features, and maps like eclipse didn't have tonnes of big rooms but had huge <i>spaces</i>. Like a corridor which opens into an antechamber connecting two more hallways which connect to other areas. This wasn't a big room per se, but it felt like the map had flow and places to go, spaces without always having crisply delineated boundaries.
Comments
So it's a double whammy. Not only have you lost the adaptability of NS1 (which incidentally makes balancing the powers very hard, because they all have to be precisely equal in power in all situations or they don't get used ever), but you have lost even the power to choose how you don't get to choose. Yo Dawg.
<!--quoteo(post=2016523:date=Nov 9 2012, 12:21 AM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Nov 9 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@OP: That's the point, Alien comm was never supposed to be a high APM guy, issuing orders every second, he just guides players and helps indirectly them via upgrades and structures. The same why he does not require them to build said structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hang on, if he's not issuing orders every second, why have him at all? In that case, the old gorge model is better. Alein comm needs to be high apm, or he's redundant, and the guy doing the job is giving up engaging play to click a few times. NS1 commanding left me in a hot sweat and breathing hard at the end of a match. That's the least what I expect if I'm going to sit the round out and not shoot anything.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know, that's like saying Pylons in starcraft are tacked on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it's nothing like that at all.
In Starcraft, you can always 'build additional pylons'. A so-called "artosis pylon", where one pylon powers several structures, is a grave newbie mistake. Yet NS marines are forced to have every base, including their main, in a state of perpetual artosis-pylon. Further, a protoss player can put pylons anywhere on the map he pleases, whereas power conduits are in fixed locations, cannot be moved or changed ever and in fact will be on the same spot in every game forever more. It's contrived and stifles originality and choice-driven gameplay, will make maps stale faster. "Target his weak spot captain!". Sheesh. I have no idea why they thought it was a good mechanic.
Finally, it costs the marines no resources to make, so killing it when it isn't powering anything is a total waste of time. Protoss pylons cost hard minerals to make, and so were always worthwhile to kill.
A system where protoss had 5 fixed pylons across the map, and had to make their bases there at all times, and they were the same in every map, and you could never make another one...that would be tacked-on and lame.
Something you need to think of as well is that mapper need to fit their map in a bunch of perpendicular rectangles, it kind of constrain what you can do, specially when you think about 3D.
Here an old solution that I proposed to remove power nodes:
For the power system I think I got a nice solution:
1) The comm can drop lights. There is already some props of large spot lights so it would not require a lot of work. It will replace a static light system by something much more dynamic, the comm has to think where to build the lights: more freedom, people like freedom. The lights can be attacked and destroyed, so you would get this cinematic effect of lights going down. It would also allow mappers to have some dark area in the map since it can be countered.
Dynamic lighting in the engine, dynamic lights in the game; make sense.
2) Rename the power pack to "sentry power system", it will power the turrets only. Destroying it disable the sentries. It allows to have a weak point in turret spammed area. It also allow the comm to choose a good spot for the "sentry power system" instead of having a fixed position on the map.
3) Use building loss of power animation to show when a building get recycled.
4) Remove power nodes since they are no longer needed.
It's a nice solution because it requires (relatively) little work and recycle most of what has already been done: no good work gets wasted. By splitting the different function of power nodes (lights, turret factory, base destroyer, ..) it also facilitate balance.
I realised while reading this that this is how I intuitively expected it to work the first time I heard about the power system, the power nodes are just really un-fun to deal with from both sides even if they're the best way to take out a marine base if you rush it with a lot of bodies.
<img src="http://www.eng.uwaterloo.ca/~mjpieter/img-monocle.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
That being said...
<!--quoteo(post=2014112:date=Nov 7 2012, 06:28 PM:name=Daemonlaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daemonlaud @ Nov 7 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks were hardly tanks in NS1, but there was always time to reposition or respond when a marine entered the room before you evaporated. Scouting was practical. A marine at range could not seriously damage you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is nowhere to hide in the new maps. The ceilings are low, the rooms are tiny, there are fewer random connective vents that are inaccesable to marines on foot, and there are no things to get behind or on top of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap used to be a late-game thing in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cloak <i>used</i> to be a viable alternative early-game play in NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
???
These things just aren't true. Pistoling Skulks feels just as effective as it did in NS1. Except you can't bind it to mouse wheel which meant instant death for Skulks. Leap was never a late-game thing, except maybe in the sense that the game was about to end when Aliens got the 2nd hive and/or Fades (in some/many NS1 versions). I really have no idea what would make you think there's no/less places to hide in. Cloak viable in NS1? Lol nope. It was always the same noob trap as it is now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Suggestions to address the above:
0) Let aliens select individual upgrades, the commander merely selects the chamber.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I agree with this, even more so since they are going to bring back the third choice in upgrades (hypermutation/feign death/whatever) and that will just exasperate the problem. Currently if an upgrade choice is even slightly less useful than some other -- and regeneration and cloak are a LOT -- there's absolutely no reason for the comm to build them until late in the game when they have lots of res and it doesn't really matter anymore. And the progression of 1) build a hive 2) evolve a hive 3) build a spur 4) research celerity is a bit clunky and obviously has one step too many in it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Reduce power of tier 1 LMG, and give skulks more armor. Increase marine life comensurately and thereby slow down battle, allowing skill to enter in to combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure this would just make players with insane aim even more obnoxious at killing Skulks. :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) Make rooms much larger<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just unfeasible. They're not gonna completely remake all of the maps -- which it would require to implement that properly and consistently.
You really don't remember the ridiculous amounts of rage and insults being shouted whenever a new player went Gorge and dared to waste res on an OC in the first five minutes of the game? Or, god forbid, built an SC and locked the whole team into that tech? I still remember getting a friend to try out the game: he Gorged, didn't build an RT or whatever in the first 30 seconds of the game, got raged at and didn't touch the game since. At least with the Alien commander the noobs understand intuitively that comm is the single most important member of the team and probably won't hop in until they have a clue about what's going on.
What you wrote actually pretty much describes the NS2 Gorge. He is NOT useless unlike you people keep on insisting, but he can't screw up the game for the whole team either.
I beg to differ. The fight for the second hive was a good part of the game, and for that you had no leap and it was exciting lmg-vs-skulk action, with no extra powers.
If you had a carapace jump over the marine weapon upgrades (always the case until mid-game), you could take several bullets, and being tickled at range was not instantly crippling. The pistol was powerful, but the scroll-wheel trick made it basically a sniper rifle - one shot, reload. But because there's no carapace levels now, there's no way to get and maintain an advantage anywhere at all, and as soon as upgrades happen skulks are relegated to cannon fodder.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really have no idea what would make you think there's no/less places to hide in. Cloak viable in NS1? Lol nope. It was always the same noob trap as it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, my experience was different. I find the maps all have small rooms with low ceilings and no features that actually provide cover or things to go behind or under. Vents don't provide shortcuts between locations, but long detours that seem to be trying to equalise the map control of both teams, rather than embracing that asymmetry. I can never morph an egg safely in any room, because there's nowhere to put it. In fact if you try and morph too close to an object, it just sticks your egg out in the open!
As for Cloaking, sure if a random first-time player dropped a sensory first, you were probably screwed. But that almost never happened - defense chamber was the default for any pub game.
When I played clan wars, however, or when I got on with two or three mates on voice in the same server, we often used sensory openings on certain maps. If you rushed to level 2 sens quickly, you could set up almost uncounterable ambushes and wipe out the first 2-3 marine pushes with brutal speed, then res cap the map behind your aggression. The next trick was to aggressively place the next sens tower with OC in the obvious marine expansion location, and they would have to blow several scans if they wanted to clear it out. The sens quickly became redundant after that, but it was an effective opening gambit, and let you get a huge jump even if only 2 or 3 of your team were taking advantage of it properly.
This sort of play doesn't work because skulks are too weak, maps are ambush unfriendly, and there's no point trying to set up for a mid-game that doesn't exist.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just unfeasible. They're not gonna completely remake all of the maps -- which it would require to implement that properly and consistently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know it sounds like a lot of work, but the current maps actually form the last straw for the alien game for me. They are just all so one-dimensional and boring! NS1 maps were a series of tight quarters situations all connecting to MASSIVE open spaces. The flat open spaces and straight corridors were marine-friendly, the featured spaces were lerk and skulk friendly, and the high spaces were fade friendly.
All the best memories I have from NS1 were fighting over those huge rooms. Every map had a massive room or three that would provoke interesting fights and tactics. Now even if they wanted to make a big room, it would be bad for marines unless they make it even more simple by placing res and power close together, otherwise marines can't cover both.
The new maps all come in one flavour - claustrophobic. All the time. In every room. On every map. Even the hive rooms are cramped, with low ceilings. There are even annoying out-of-bounds invisible walls on the maps that appear to have some actual space on them! It's boring and culls a lot of the strategy out of the game, as well as making alien gameplay more simplistic.
<!--quoteo(post=2017368:date=Nov 9 2012, 02:30 PM:name=snaga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snaga @ Nov 9 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still remember getting a friend to try out the game: he Gorged, didn't build an RT or whatever in the first 30 seconds of the game, got raged at and didn't touch the game since. At least with the Alien commander the noobs understand intuitively that comm is the single most important member of the team and probably won't hop in until they have a clue about what's going on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to ask, why didn't you tell your first-time friend not to play gorge? And certainly if he did go gorge, what to build? There's nothing you say here that wouldn't be solved with a warning pop-up message for rookie-flagged players when they try to morph gorge, saying that this is a key role and recommended for experienced players.
I am not demanding a return to the NS1 gorge, but I am asking for a solution that restores the style of play and thematic cohesion that the Khaara had in NS1, and if that is to go back to NS1, so be it.
I don't remember how it went exactly. He probably didn't go Gorge straight away in his first game. But when he did, he got flamed out of the server before even having time to find the friggin button that would build a DC. I mean in literally less than 30 seconds.
And the whole point Ansom was trying to make was that NS1 Gorges somehow were a good class for low-skilled new players who didn't know wtf. No, they were not. Even in a game where you had an experienced Gorge to build the chambers and another one who would go Gorge for a second just to drop the hive, any noob Gorge would get rage just for daring to evolve into a Gorge. Why would they get rage just for that, you ask? Because Gorges soaked up three times more res from the team's res flow than other lifeforms and thus an extra Gorge would screw up things for everyone else. A horrible mechanic. Although I can't remember if they changed it at some point.
Well, I just don't know what to say. :) That just isn't my experience in NS1 and NS2. Granted, a few old maps had a couple of really huge rooms, like ns_nothing and ns_bast if I recall correctly. But most of them really didn't. Veil and Eclipse were the most played maps in NS1 and they mostly looked like this:
<img src="http://www.button-masher.net/screens/ns_veil_5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
It's still obvious that ns2_veil is an old map, even though it's not bad by all means. In the new maps there's at least Courtyard in Docking, Cave in Mineshaft and Cargo in Veil which are all quite large. I do agree the invisible ceilings are a bit stupid. And regarding your second point, the amount of line-of-sight breaking props, crates, nooks and crannies and dark areas etc seems pretty large compared to most NS1 maps:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/owse9.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I dunno man. Of course there's nothing wrong with having maps like Nothing and I'm sure a lot of awesome, different maps will come. Not to mention people are already working on remaking many NS1 maps. I just don't think it somehow makes the current maps <b>unplayable</b>, if they are of a slightly different style than (some) NS1 maps.
Hey I'm not trying to be hyperbolic. The new maps aren't 'unplayable'. In fact I wouldn't mind one or two tighter, more Ridley Scott's Alien type maps, but every single freaking map in the pool has like one average sized room and nothing else but shoeboxes and caves. Even the larger of the maps somehow manage to feel cluttered and small without being tactically interesting.
Back in the day, maps like Hera and even eclipse had large spacious rooms, but with many entrance points and other features, and maps like eclipse didn't have tonnes of big rooms but had huge <i>spaces</i>. Like a corridor which opens into an antechamber connecting two more hallways which connect to other areas. This wasn't a big room per se, but it felt like the map had flow and places to go, spaces without always having crisply delineated boundaries.