Why aliens feel underpowered
sierses
Join Date: 2012-11-07 Member: 167873Members
Join Date: 2012-11-07 Member: 167873Members
I was browsing through the source code and i ended up comparing the DPS of the different alien races. I obtained the attack times from the wiki (may or may not be outdated), which seem to be based on the animations, except for a few i found in Balance.lua. The calculations include adjustments for the damage types against humans, assuming the maximum damage is done.
<!--fonto:Lucida Console--><span style="font-family:Lucida Console"><!--/fonto-->Skulk bite 1/.45*75 = <b>166.67 dps</b>
Gorge spit 1/.5*40 = <b>80</b>
Lerk spikes 1/.07*{7,8,9} = 100,114,128 * 1.25 = <b>125,142.5,160</b>
Fade swipe 1/.65*65 = 100 * 1.25 = <b>125</b>
Onos gore 1/0.5*95 = 190 * 1.25 = <b>237.5</b><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
Onos smash 1/1.9*100 = 52.6 (double damage to armor)
(charging also gives maximum damage of 95*2 = 190 * 1.25 = <b>237.5</b>)
<!--fonto:Lucida Console--><span style="font-family:Lucida Console"><!--/fonto-->Assault Rifle 1/.1*10 = <b>100,110,120,130</b>
Pistol 1/.1*25 = <b>250,275,300,325</b> (half damage to armor)
Minigun 1/.1*25 = <b>250,275,300,325</b> (double damage to armor) (.1s fire rate is assumed, no data on the wiki or in source code)
Shotgun 1/.9*17*10 = <b>189,208,227,246</b>
Grenade Launcher 1/.4 = <b>325,358,390,423</b>
Flamethrower 1/.5*7.5 + (5 to 75) + (3 to 45) varying based on how long flame is applied to a target up to 6 seconds, approximate damage between (15+5+3+10+6) = <b>39</b> up to <b>135</b> dps without upgrades
Axe and Welder attack times seem inconsistent in the wiki<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
Surprisingly, the skulk is a very powerful alien (if only it had more armor), the fade is significantly worse, the lerk is surprisingly decent, and the onos', while great at goring meatbags, is in many ways quite mediocre at smashing buildings.
The marines, on the other hand, are quite capable of wiping the floor with alien guts. It's somewhat amazing that the aliens are as successful as they are.
Hopefully this data will lead to some useful changes in the long run, maybe even a fade worth more than 25res. ;-)
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->edit: Fixed info about Onos, modified comment on it<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--fonto:Lucida Console--><span style="font-family:Lucida Console"><!--/fonto-->Skulk bite 1/.45*75 = <b>166.67 dps</b>
Gorge spit 1/.5*40 = <b>80</b>
Lerk spikes 1/.07*{7,8,9} = 100,114,128 * 1.25 = <b>125,142.5,160</b>
Fade swipe 1/.65*65 = 100 * 1.25 = <b>125</b>
Onos gore 1/0.5*95 = 190 * 1.25 = <b>237.5</b><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
Onos smash 1/1.9*100 = 52.6 (double damage to armor)
(charging also gives maximum damage of 95*2 = 190 * 1.25 = <b>237.5</b>)
<!--fonto:Lucida Console--><span style="font-family:Lucida Console"><!--/fonto-->Assault Rifle 1/.1*10 = <b>100,110,120,130</b>
Pistol 1/.1*25 = <b>250,275,300,325</b> (half damage to armor)
Minigun 1/.1*25 = <b>250,275,300,325</b> (double damage to armor) (.1s fire rate is assumed, no data on the wiki or in source code)
Shotgun 1/.9*17*10 = <b>189,208,227,246</b>
Grenade Launcher 1/.4 = <b>325,358,390,423</b>
Flamethrower 1/.5*7.5 + (5 to 75) + (3 to 45) varying based on how long flame is applied to a target up to 6 seconds, approximate damage between (15+5+3+10+6) = <b>39</b> up to <b>135</b> dps without upgrades
Axe and Welder attack times seem inconsistent in the wiki<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
Surprisingly, the skulk is a very powerful alien (if only it had more armor), the fade is significantly worse, the lerk is surprisingly decent, and the onos', while great at goring meatbags, is in many ways quite mediocre at smashing buildings.
The marines, on the other hand, are quite capable of wiping the floor with alien guts. It's somewhat amazing that the aliens are as successful as they are.
Hopefully this data will lead to some useful changes in the long run, maybe even a fade worth more than 25res. ;-)
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->edit: Fixed info about Onos, modified comment on it<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Comments
It's hard to see what Aliens are good at this game. They would take out first prize for running fast and ability to hide in vents.
Just checked the history for the Onos wiki and Gore is 0.5s per attack, not 1.9 like smash.
I don't know why someone would remove such relevant info from the wiki....
With celerity, maybe. Nothing more dumb than Marines being able to sprint after you and shoot you in the back until then.
NS is not really a game for which you can do theorycrafting. Skill is everything. It's been widely discussed by experienced players that marines scale more with aiming skill and so it could possibly be that in high level play Aliens are at a disadvantage, but frankly this does not apply for the vast majority of games atm.
is there a single improvement in the entire game to aliens?
Aliens feel like losing all the time, because the skulk is designed to be a suicide unit. and dieing isn't fun. Also skulks don't scale into mid and late game. Making you dieing even more often. If the skulk would be smaller and the onos weaker but with a skill-full mechanic like bone shield, it would feel better.
NS is not really a game for which you can do theorycrafting. Skill is everything. It's been widely discussed by experienced players that marines scale more with aiming skill and so it could possibly be that in high level play Aliens are at a disadvantage, but frankly this does not apply for the vast majority of games atm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is false. DPS calculations are always important for various reasons, including calculation of ideal situations as well as predicting averages. Of course, ease of use, accuracy, and so on are equally important, and when you combine them you get <i>effective DPS.</i>
Disappointingly, the OP is deceptive, in that for marine weapons he's only included DPS per magazine. He hasn't included sustained DPS (which accounts for reload time) which is quite important for figuring out the effective DPS for a given weapon.
With the introduction of glancing blows, precision has become a factor for Aliens as well. Not quite as much as marines, of course, but it's not far.
Ultimately, it's vital to ensure one assumes a holistic perspective on things like this. Sure, skulks have the highest potential DPS, but are there other factors involved in delivering that damage? Do damage types make a value look bigger than it actually is?
Yeah, lerks have spikes now. And they are hilariously effective.
Onos went from a gimmicky one-trick pony that you used when you wanted to screw around with devour into wrecking ball of pure destruction and the unit around which revolves the entire Alien game and meta-game.
Although I am not sure if you could call that an <i>improvement.</i>
Also, your title suggests that aliens feeling underpowered is a given fact, while there are plenty to disagree on that.
the damage is more or less what anyone with any sense would have anticipated... damage alone is meaningless as targets usually don't stand still with 100% accuracy, 0 reload time, infinite ammo, no special abilities/utilities and same resource cost etc.
pulling conclusions out of there air like "lerk spikes are surprisingly good, look at their dps!!11" is about the same as saying "fades are surprisingly good, look at their speed!1" or "onos are surprisingly good, look at their hp!!1". it's totally out of context.
Aliens seem to be winning
Aliens seem to be winning<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that data is skewed because of how dependent marines are on their commander. With a poor one, a quick rush is end game. Give it a month to see if those numbers even out some as people learn how to play.
With the introduction of glancing blows, precision has become a factor for Aliens as well. Not quite as much as marines, of course, but it's not far.
Ultimately, it's vital to ensure one assumes a holistic perspective on things like this. Sure, skulks have the highest potential DPS, but are there other factors involved in delivering that damage? Do damage types make a value look bigger than it actually is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marine weapons are also measured in DPS, only the pistol uses it's full magazine within that period.
The measurements up until reloading with the various weapon upgrades are:
Pistol: 10 * 25 = <b>250,275,300,325</b> in 1.0s (if you can click fast enough)
Rifle: 10 * 50 = <b>500,550,600,650</b> in 1.7s
Shotgun: 8 * 170 = <b>1360,1496,1632,1768</b> in 7.2s
Grenade Launcher: 4 * 130 = <b>520,572,624,676</b> in 1.2s
Flamethrower: 15s(of fuel) * median of 87dps = <b>1305,1435,1565,1695</b>
Single Minigun: 5s(before overheating, 2.5s for full cooldown) * 250dps(still not sure about this, but i'm assuming it fires as fast as the rifle and pistol) = <b>1250,1375,1500,1625</b>
The marines are well balanced against themselves, and against the higher health and armor of the aliens. The aliens have to rely on skill to dodge the marines while still inflicting maximum damage.
Take for example the Onos, 1300 health + 1000 armor from carapace. The heavy damage of dual Exo miniguns. even at weapons 0, should be able to kill it outright given 5s of concentrated fire with minimal misses and single minigun will at least be able to completely decimate the armor, whereas it will take an onos 3.5, 4.5, 5.5, and 6 seconds to kill an exo, depending on the armor level, hence the necessity of gorge support.
Another example is the marine armor upgrades. 100 + 30 vs 100 + 90 This equates to 160 and 280 total health. the aliens are forced to do 75% more damage to the marines with no increase in damage output (a 33% decrease in damage in the case of the fade). The onos can only 1-hit kill up to an armor 1 marine, armor 2,3 will have 5hp,45hp left.
If combined attacks are necessary to succeed as an alien, what will happen when marines become better coordinated in the pub games?
Many aspects of balance rely on the human factor, but by knowing the maximum potential damage it's easier to judge minimally pub balance issues when you can assume that 50-75% of that damage is actually being done. We need more stats for UWD to know for sure : )
Although there is a lot of skill in aiming accurately, moving accurately is significantly harder for many people. I think this is why, even with underpowered fades (pushing a tech rush to onos), the aliens are so fun to play; they have what feels like a higher skill ceiling. But to keep that from becoming frustrating, i think they need more toys/abilities to compensate for their low mid-endgame (blissfully ignoring the onos here) power with variety.
Fade could use a DPS boost or armor boost and Skulk slightly more armor but other than that, I don't see a significant issue.
The data is skewed because people keep using it like it's some sort of goddamn barometer of the quality of the game
Quit using it. Win / loss is irrelevant. Aliens are no fun, full stop.