Wait. Why do we have no first person spectating yet?

IdlerayIdleray Join Date: 2012-10-04 Member: 161464Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 154 Advanced user
Did I miss something? Am I a complete nub?
As topic says. I'm not knowledgable in such matters, but I am aware that they got some enthusiast from amazon coding their spectator mode, so it may not be as trivial as it seems. But to me it seems that first person POV would be the prime reason for people to want to spec, esp when there are good players around to learn from.

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  • NammNamm Join Date: 2011-12-08 Member: 137116Members Posts: 412 Fully active user
    The devs says it's hard to implement, but on its way.
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    proper demo recording and FPS spectate mode are being worked on, FPS speciate has priority right now but it is a bit more involved then just throwing in a bit of code, I assume. Also "some enthusiast from amazon" What does that mean :D

    Community members Huze and Dghelneshi both worked on the insight spectator mod and it's been incorporated into the game with Huze as the main developer for it AFAIK

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  • IdlerayIdleray Join Date: 2012-10-04 Member: 161464Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 154 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 6 2012, 07:47 AM) »
    proper demo recording and FPS spectate mode are being worked on, FPS speciate has priority right now but it is a bit more involved then just throwing in a bit of code, I assume. Also "some enthusiast from amazon" What does that mean :D

    Community members Huze and Dghelneshi both worked on the insight spectator mod and it's been incorporated into the game with Huze as the main developer for it AFAIK


    It was from an article recently that detailed all the cool things the community had a hand in working on. The title was something like "how the community saved NS2"
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members Posts: 1,731
    I remember several people modding first spectator mode, it seemed to work well, except there wasn't the view model. I don't really understand what it so hard with it.
  • HyperformsHyperforms Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166912Members Posts: 49
    I think first person spectate should be the last thing to go in for a spectator system in a game like this. It's good for checking up on a potential hacker but I don't know what other reason there would be where you'd need it. I'd make the same argument for Battlefield 3 in a large conquest game, but not for games like COD or Counter-Strike where the maps are smaller and there's really only one objective.

    Still, I don't think it should be left out altogether... I just don't see it as a major priority.
  • HuzeHuze Insightful Join Date: 2003-11-12 Member: 22724Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 477 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Idleray @ Nov 6 2012, 10:40 AM) »
    As topic says. I'm not knowledgable in such matters, but I am aware that they got some enthusiast from amazon coding their spectator mode, so it may not be as trivial as it seems. But to me it seems that first person POV would be the prime reason for people to want to spec, esp when there are good players around to learn from.

    Charlie told me not to try to get first person spectate working via game code, and that they would put it in via engine changes after 1.0. I haven't been working on it in any way, but hopefully they will do it soon.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members Posts: 1,123
    if i had to guess, i would say that first person spectator is difficult because of the interpolation/lag compensation.

    if you're spectating, it might appear that they're shooting waaaay behind people - because their client is not synchronized with the server/your client.
  • AixAix Join Date: 2010-12-02 Member: 75409Members Posts: 21
    QUOTE (Hyperforms @ Nov 6 2012, 11:59 AM) »
    I think first person spectate should be the last thing to go in for a spectator system in a game like this. It's good for checking up on a potential hacker but I don't know what other reason there would be where you'd need it. I'd make the same argument for Battlefield 3 in a large conquest game, but not for games like COD or Counter-Strike where the maps are smaller and there's really only one objective.

    Still, I don't think it should be left out altogether... I just don't see it as a major priority.


    BF3 is rife with hackers and the lack of spectator makes it frustratingly difficult to police your own servers. You end up having to ban completely based scores and KDR, which doesn't always tell the whole story and is the least-favorable way to do so. Having hackers on the opposing team will generally ruin the game for everyone no matter what the objectives are or what the map size is.

    QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 6 2012, 12:10 PM) »
    if i had to guess, i would say that first person spectator is difficult because of the interpolation/lag compensation.

    if you're spectating, it might appear that they're shooting waaaay behind people - because their client is not synchronized with the server/your client.


    Source has had spectate for years without those issues; it should be doable here too.
  • BoBiNoUBoBiNoU Join Date: 2007-12-27 Member: 63274Members Posts: 133
    As much as I love game casts I remember with nostalgia the old "World Cup final" ( usually france v germany if i'm correct ) that were widely broadcasted to Spectator mode.
    I would love to see this kind of implementation for NS2 but I guess it will take time, we need to be patient.
  • HyperformsHyperforms Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166912Members Posts: 49
    QUOTE (Aix @ Nov 6 2012, 10:12 AM) »
    BF3 is rife with hackers and the lack of spectator makes it frustratingly difficult to police your own servers. You end up having to ban completely based scores and KDR, which doesn't always tell the whole story and is the least-favorable way to do so. Having hackers on the opposing team will generally ruin the game for everyone no matter what the objectives are or what the map size is.


    That's the exception that I gave for large maps that's more than just killing the other team. If you're genuinely spectating just to watch and not check for hackers, I'm not sure why you'd prefer a first person view on that kind of game objective/map size over a free look. I think first person view in smaller maps(when it's just killing each other) if you're just watching or live casting as an announcer or whatever becomes more important. It's important in either case for hack checking, I'm just saying that free look should be more appealing to anyone that's not doing hack checking in a game like this, especially since an entire team can't shoot(for the most part).
  • noncomposmentisnoncomposmentis Join Date: 2004-11-13 Member: 32773Members Posts: 342
    QUOTE (Hyperforms @ Nov 6 2012, 09:46 AM) »
    That's the exception that I gave for large maps that's more than just killing the other team. If you're genuinely spectating just to watch and not check for hackers, I'm not sure why you'd prefer a first person view on that kind of game objective/map size over a free look. I think first person view in smaller maps(when it's just killing each other) if you're just watching or live casting as an announcer or whatever becomes more important. It's important in either case for hack checking, I'm just saying that free look should be more appealing to anyone that's not doing hack checking in a game like this, especially since an entire team can't shoot(for the most part).

    I would love first person spectating for reasons other than hacking. If you see a good player and wonder why they're good, third person isn't going to tell most of the story. If you see a bad player you won't be able to help them without seeing what they're looking at, which is far from clear on third person.
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  • slimeslime Join Date: 2010-07-14 Member: 72352Members Posts: 51
    edited November 2012
    QUOTE (Aix @ Nov 6 2012, 01:12 PM) »
    Source has had spectate for years without those issues; it should be doable here too.

    No one is saying it's not doable, just that it's not easy. Valve has had a very long time to work on Source, with a large number of developers compared to Unknown Worlds. UWE have said they're committed to implementing it. :)
  • lwflwf Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58311Members, Constellation Posts: 486 Fully active user
    QUOTE (slime @ Nov 6 2012, 07:11 PM) »
    No one is saying it's not doable, just that it's not easy. Valve has had a very long time to work on Source, with a large number of developers compared to Unknown Worlds. UWE have said they're committed to implementing it. :)

    It's also not without issues. Specing in Source lacks the lag compensation that's otherwise applied. What you see in spec is not what the player sees.
  • AixAix Join Date: 2010-12-02 Member: 75409Members Posts: 21
    QUOTE (Hyperforms @ Nov 6 2012, 01:46 PM) »
    It's important in either case for hack checking, I'm just saying that free look should be more appealing to anyone that's not doing hack checking in a game like this, especially since an entire team can't shoot(for the most part).


    Yeah, but most players I know would rather watch how a good player does what he does, and that means watching 1st-person. Your original comment was that 1st-person should be the last thing to go in when I'd argue it's the most important. There are more hacks for FPS games than just aimbots. I also agree with:

    QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Nov 6 2012, 02:05 PM) »
    I would love first person spectating for reasons other than hacking. If you see a good player and wonder why they're good, third person isn't going to tell most of the story. If you see a bad player you won't be able to help them without seeing what they're looking at, which is far from clear on third person.





    QUOTE (lwf @ Nov 6 2012, 02:44 PM) »
    It's also not without issues. Specing in Source lacks the lag compensation that's otherwise applied. What you see in spec is not what the player sees.


    It's good enough for what I need it for, and it's not like you're seeing something completely different from the player. It's good enough to tell me if a player is using a wallhack, aimbot, crit hack, nospread, etc. - obviously with experience and judgement calls thrown in (the demo function of Source is also a great tool for this). But that's why a good admin doesn't ban based on a single instance unless it's 100% indicative of cheating (instantaneous 180° snap to head, obvious speed hack, etc.).
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