The NS2 fade is near perfect.
Swiftspear
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
<div class="IPBDescription">why I'm sick of hearing complaints about this</div>The issue with this community, is it's hostile to changing it's ways. It would be easy to look at NS2 and compare it to NS1 and the overwhelming temptation is to assume that everything that worked well in NS1, and every standard that reigned supreme in NS1, should also be true now in NS2. This is not the case, and this is especially evident with the fade.
In NS1 the fade was your major combat legwork unit. You needed a unit in the mid game that could slow or stop marine push teams entirely. Onos were slow and weak, and not really feasible to rush. What's more, an alien team was at great risk of the dreaded 2 hive lockdown that would immediately end their chances of winning. You basically were FORCED to allow marines to lock down the first hive, and then were FORCED to defend the second hive and the second hive siege area's tooth and nail IMMEDIATELY throughout the entire duration of the early game into the mid game. It was ABSOLUTELY UNNACCEPTABLE for the marine team to secure phase gate positions near both hives.
NS2 is not the same game.
In NS2 it is more difficult for marine teams to lock down an area. Phase gate is a later tier tech item that requires slightly more investment. Ninja gates take twice as long to build because of power nodes that must also be put up, and while the gate can still be in a sneaky location, power nodes are never conveniently sneaky. Additionally ARCs are not siege tanks, they must be moved cross map, they're more expensive in initial investment to field, and they can't phase into an area. Furthermore, if you lock down 2 tech point, there is still a third available for aliens to take as their second hive. A full map lockdown quickly becomes unfeasible, it simply costs too much investment.
What does this mean for the fade? Basically, he doesn't actually need to kill things any more. His role is not what it used to be. Fades are literally doing the wrong thing if they can see more than 3 marines at a time on the screen at almost any point during the game.
So what is the fade supposed to do now? Simply put, his new job is superskulk. Skulks should be taking down nodes, skulks should be pressuring the marine base. Skulks should constantly be forcing marines to respond to the on-map presence of the aliens. If a skulk is chewing down a node you need to send a marine to go save it. If a skulk runs into your base you need a marine to stop it from killing important things. Fades should be doing all those things as well.
Fades DID do those things in NS1, and holy hell, if you ever were a marine commander when a fade starts working away at your infrastructure instead of a skulk you knew how amazingly frustrating it was. You can't just sent one marine to save your node from a fade. 1 marine won't do anything. You can't just jump out of your chair to save your armory from a fade, you need at least 1 other marine so that the fade won't just kill you and continue killing the armory. Fades in NS1 were, and still are so good at these things it's basically unfair and imbalanced. The thing is, in NS1 the marines were able to force the fades to not do these things that were honestly so powerful that they were outright unfair. If the fades did NOT defend the second hive, the Marines gained too heavy an advantage, even though they lost most of the nodes on the map and had a hard time keeping up important structures in MS, they could lock down the second hive and drag out a low economy victory through the mid game by slowly taking back ground that was lost earlier on. This no longer works in NS2.
In NS2 hives come earlier, Onos comes earlier, there are fewer resource nozzles, and there are more places for aliens to work around marine lockdowns.
While the Fade in NS2 is weaker than it was in NS1, different things are needed in NS2, fades are not too weak in NS2. They are exactly as strong as they need to be, they don't need to be the same as they were in NS1.
The only thing actually wrong with fades is that the duration of vortex is WAY shorter than it needs to be useful. Shocking that the last major change to the fades abilities hasn't been fully balanced yet, isn't it?
In NS1 the fade was your major combat legwork unit. You needed a unit in the mid game that could slow or stop marine push teams entirely. Onos were slow and weak, and not really feasible to rush. What's more, an alien team was at great risk of the dreaded 2 hive lockdown that would immediately end their chances of winning. You basically were FORCED to allow marines to lock down the first hive, and then were FORCED to defend the second hive and the second hive siege area's tooth and nail IMMEDIATELY throughout the entire duration of the early game into the mid game. It was ABSOLUTELY UNNACCEPTABLE for the marine team to secure phase gate positions near both hives.
NS2 is not the same game.
In NS2 it is more difficult for marine teams to lock down an area. Phase gate is a later tier tech item that requires slightly more investment. Ninja gates take twice as long to build because of power nodes that must also be put up, and while the gate can still be in a sneaky location, power nodes are never conveniently sneaky. Additionally ARCs are not siege tanks, they must be moved cross map, they're more expensive in initial investment to field, and they can't phase into an area. Furthermore, if you lock down 2 tech point, there is still a third available for aliens to take as their second hive. A full map lockdown quickly becomes unfeasible, it simply costs too much investment.
What does this mean for the fade? Basically, he doesn't actually need to kill things any more. His role is not what it used to be. Fades are literally doing the wrong thing if they can see more than 3 marines at a time on the screen at almost any point during the game.
So what is the fade supposed to do now? Simply put, his new job is superskulk. Skulks should be taking down nodes, skulks should be pressuring the marine base. Skulks should constantly be forcing marines to respond to the on-map presence of the aliens. If a skulk is chewing down a node you need to send a marine to go save it. If a skulk runs into your base you need a marine to stop it from killing important things. Fades should be doing all those things as well.
Fades DID do those things in NS1, and holy hell, if you ever were a marine commander when a fade starts working away at your infrastructure instead of a skulk you knew how amazingly frustrating it was. You can't just sent one marine to save your node from a fade. 1 marine won't do anything. You can't just jump out of your chair to save your armory from a fade, you need at least 1 other marine so that the fade won't just kill you and continue killing the armory. Fades in NS1 were, and still are so good at these things it's basically unfair and imbalanced. The thing is, in NS1 the marines were able to force the fades to not do these things that were honestly so powerful that they were outright unfair. If the fades did NOT defend the second hive, the Marines gained too heavy an advantage, even though they lost most of the nodes on the map and had a hard time keeping up important structures in MS, they could lock down the second hive and drag out a low economy victory through the mid game by slowly taking back ground that was lost earlier on. This no longer works in NS2.
In NS2 hives come earlier, Onos comes earlier, there are fewer resource nozzles, and there are more places for aliens to work around marine lockdowns.
While the Fade in NS2 is weaker than it was in NS1, different things are needed in NS2, fades are not too weak in NS2. They are exactly as strong as they need to be, they don't need to be the same as they were in NS1.
The only thing actually wrong with fades is that the duration of vortex is WAY shorter than it needs to be useful. Shocking that the last major change to the fades abilities hasn't been fully balanced yet, isn't it?
Comments
Interestingly, with this playstyle Regeneration would be much more useful- as your engagements are mostly small scale so you should be able to survive them, your mindset is more defensive and so you're disengaging more often and quickly, and most of the time you're out of combat which gives Regen plenty of time to do its work.
1. it needs to be played by a really competent player to be worth the res.
2. it fits in an awkward phase as lategame fades arent at their best. They simply melt to level 3 shotguns which deny them their mobility.
I think this could be solved by making fades cheaper as well as blink, with blink research time being reduced.
Yeah, I'll concede people should learn to play Fades not as the NS1 deathsquad badass. But Fades lose straight up fights too easily still in NS2. At least that's been my intuition.
c'mon seriously.
<!--quoteo(post=2012174:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:49 AM:name=Garfu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garfu @ Nov 6 2012, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong, fades do half damage to buildings AND their swipe is slower than skulk bites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2012179:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:53 AM:name=Soulfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soulfighter @ Nov 6 2012, 04:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fades are actually way slower at taking down buildings then skulks, their attacks deal less dmg and are slower. Also i can win duels as skulks, i don't need to spend 50 res just for that (and i'll actually be at disavantage vs a shotgun due to the huge hitbox of the fade)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because your argument is failing in one thread please dont start new threads with misleading titles.
Lets all spend 50 res to be super skulks... wait no... ####er skulks!
1. it needs to be played by a really competent player to be worth the res.
2. it fits in an awkward phase as lategame fades arent at their best. They simply melt to level 3 shotguns which deny them their mobility.
I think this could be solved by making fades cheaper as well as blink, with blink research time being reduced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you may be onto something. Lets think about this for a moment:
Aliens don't have to spend personal resources on anything (lets leave out Gorge for the moment) except on evolutions. If you evolve into lerk/fade/onos and don't die, there's no additional benefit to you from saving up all that personal resoures other than the fact that it allows you to evolve again when you eventually DO die.
But if you're a newer player and you're not so good at using the lerk/fade, what happens? You go out all happy and then you proceed to die in 1-2 minutes. Bam, you back to playing with the skulk for the next 10 minutes. How are newer players ever going to get good at these new fragile but powerful (and thus "balanced") lifeforms? Lerk and Fade can be perfectly balanced with respect to the entire game, but surely the game can be balanced in such a way that it doesn't completely hinder new players' ability to learn the game?
So its a one trick pony, who's only trick isn't that good and only works when you have three hives...
xD
I think natural selection 2 should start off in a maze... the marines should start in the middle of the maze and the aliens should start off on the outside... the maze should be filled with red circles that the aliens have to run around collecting whilst the marines randomly walk through the maze trying to destroy the aliens.
Once the aliens have collected enough small yellow circles they should unlock the onos and then the game should completely turn around and the aliens should run around eating the marines!!!!
Abit like <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/vBExnfJIhQ8&fs=1&source=uds&autoplay=1" target="_blank">this.</a>
xD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well designed and balanced okay.
I guess you could have your fade run around and play blocker for skulks chewing nodes and gank marines trying to recap, but you'd be far more useful just saving the res and going onos.
I think it should be:
While the Fade in NS2 is weaker than it was in NS1, It doesnt matter because nothing but 6 min onos are needed at the moment, fades are not too weak in NS2 because nobody even bothers to use them. They are exactly as strong as... oh who gives a ####?
I cant wait for our 6-min-crutch-nos to be removed...
OP I salute you for your insightful and inspiring statement of the NS2 Fade. May you have luck in future battles.
1. it needs to be played by a really competent player to be worth the res.
2. it fits in an awkward phase as lategame fades arent at their best. They simply melt to level 3 shotguns which deny them their mobility.
I think this could be solved by making fades cheaper as well as blink, with blink research time being reduced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps there could be a three hive or an expensive two hive upgrade meant for late game that makes certain lifeforms cheaper? Once weapons 3 comes out the fade isnt worth nearly 50 p.res.
An issue with the way marine upgrades work is that as you get more upgrades your weapon purchases end up being more valuable. That 20 p.res you spent on that shotgun is worth way more than the 20 p.res you would've spent 5-10 minutes ago. The aliens dont scale in such a way at all. That 50 p.res on a fade is worth just as much by the end of the game as when you first get it. Therefore a way to balance it for the end game would be to simply make the fade cheaper by the end of the game.
not just that, but people can barely get consistent FPS in this game, so the numbers are <i>still</i> going to be off. as performance improves, hitscan aim is only going to improve, making the situation worse for fades and lerks.
While the Fade in NS2 is weaker than it was in NS1, It doesnt matter because nothing but 6 min onos are needed at the moment, fades are not too weak in NS2 because nobody even bothers to use them. They are exactly as strong as... oh who gives a ####?
I cant wait for our 6-min-crutch-nos to be removed...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything you post is whiny ######. Please leave.
If you can't kill a lone Exo with Fade, I think it's more of an L2P issue.
Hey thanks for the smug, boss.
Because of the res and skill required to use Fades effectively, few people ever bother using them, which feeds into a vicious cycle where people are never motivated to learn Fading and when they do tend to fail so quickly they're quickly put off Fading for however long again. I include myself in this.
I can and have taken Exos down easily as Skulk but I find the Fade controls clunky and often die before I can do anything worthy of the 50 res investment that I couldn't do as Skulk.
Maybe UWE was trolling us on no babbler king all along.
It is actually quite easy if the Exo doesnt know what he is doing,
it becomes alot harder if he makes the really simple decision to stand against a wall...
No longer can you always be behind him and his now 25 dmg per hit gun and fist of fistly'ness
wont struggle to take some seriously chunks out of your limited health.
Lets all spend 50 res to be super skulks... wait no... ####er skulks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For a resource node, a fade takes 10 seconds longer to kill it than a skulk (38 seconds vs 28 seconds)
That's fair considering marines can't really defend that node being attacked. Their response needs to be significantly more costly than the response to a skulk attacking a node. Fades should be attacking structures, but they shouldn't be wasting their time to the same degree skulks are able to. I wouldn't attack a power node as a fade for example unless it's powering something that gives marines a direct advantage.
Fades also have the ability to directly assault tech points alone.
Playing marines feels really claustrophobic in NS2. It's not like NS1 where you can just hold 6 RTs at any given point in time. It's a little easier while there's still only skulks, marines can run off and defend, but when fades come out you start to really feel a noose around your neck, and I think it's pretty fair that that's what they're supposed to do. Make them much stronger and marines are screwed.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAtYGeFVdgU#t=12m" target="_blank">no, they do not</a>. I would really like to know how the fades could have played that better - is that not the definition of hit and run, what Gorgeous did? or do the forum elites posting in this thread have better advice for three players on inversion?
The mid-game fade (blink + adrenaline) is sufficiently powerful to rip apart marine squads, especially if aided by a distracting skulk or two. I am by no means a good player, but I have myself stopped a (disorganized) four marine + exo hive assault singlehandedly as a fade. It can be done. As soon as you get the hang of 'fading', of not over-extending yourself, the fade's usefulness triples or quadruples. New players who are only used to closing with the enemy will suffer as a fade, but they have an excuse. Noone ever said NS doesn't have a learning curve.
Late-game is very different for the fade, I find them ineffective against 3-marine pushes and certainly less frightening even against one or two marines, but they are pivotal in breaking a marine turtle as an onos support unit. But that 50res is definitely rough once you inevitably go down. As a late-game khammander with a turtling marine team, you have enough resources to drop a ton of onos/fade eggs anyways. However, if the marines have you backpedaling late-game... well, I haven't figured out how to deal with that yet :P.
It's just easier to evolve to onos as fast as possible to take advantage of his massive hp.
Speaking as a decent fade, exo is a lot easier than 3 or more marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2012454:date=Nov 6 2012, 06:12 AM:name=Desther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Nov 6 2012, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades theoretical skill cap is too high and his hp too low for uncoordinated pub games. When was the last time you saw your whole alien team assault a room at the same time with spores, umbra, bile bomb, drifter bonus, hallucinations and vortex TOGETHER?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just about 10 minutes ago actually, and a couple of times yesterday too. Although there were no hallucinations.
I hear this same thing about mid/endgame skulks. "Oh you're not supposed to be attacking marines anymore, you're supposd to be hitting loners and RTs."
Let me ask you this - if skulks aren't competition and are supposed to 'hit and run' isolated marines, and Fades aren't competitoin and are supposed to 'hit and run'... what exactly is stopping the actual groups of marines that are roving around the map?
In NS1 this was the Fade, because it COULD stand up to several marines. So now what? The 5-minute Onos? That's probably going away. The Gorge and his three useless Hydras supported by massively underperforming and overpriced whips?
I have no opinion on whether the fade acid rocket should make a return, but it certiainly enabled the Fade to destroy structures and be more of an end game class.
As the fade is so bad at this now, the anti-structure life form that takes up this role is the Gorge or Skulk that are easily killed.
I think that is why we see a lot of Onos action nowadays.
Seeing that -270 from that shotgun blast just hurt my soul. That should not be a thing in this game. That was well over half the entire Carapaced health of the Fade. In one shot, from the lowest-tech weapon upgrade marines get. It's ###### like that that makes me not want to play the game.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the TTKs need to be evaluated. An alien has to spend time closing to a marine, and then between armor, jumping, and jetpacks must spend several long seconds trying to bite him to death. Every second longer he takes is time the marine can be spitting out half a magazine of LMG or some shotgun shells.
On the other hand, the TTK marines have against aliens is incredibly short. Gorgeous, in that video, went from full health to dead in just under one second. I'm OKAY with aliens being quick to die, but aliens definitely need a mechanic that they can use to kill marines just as fast. Attacks to the rear of a marine should do double damage, at the very least.
it's actually a bug, for some reason the damage ticker didn't reset. I did -66 damage with that second shot, which added onto the -220 shot first for a total of -286. which is actually absurd all on its own - why does the second to last shot do the exact same damage as the last shot, despite there being about a 15 foot difference? because shotgun spread is retarded!