Cloaking, and why it sucks right now.
Haplo_64
Join Date: 2012-04-03 Member: 149890Members
Join Date: 2012-04-03 Member: 149890Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Some minor changes would be nice.</div>Cloaking is a useful ability, in theory. To easily show my thoughts, here's a pros vs cons list.
Pros:
*Can ambush people, and get an almost guaranteed first/second attack, making ambushing effective.
*Retreating is possible, as long as you get enough distance to cloak, you can counter the inevitable chase and maybe scare them off.
Cons:
*Completely and utterly rendered useless by the observatory.
*Moving when the lights go out actually makes you easier to see.
*Waste of a slot at the moment for skulk, lerk and fade.
I understand that it's the observatories job to be a counter to cloaking, but why does it have to be a complete counter? Being cloaked doesn't hide you when you move due to the "shimmer" that an observant marine will notice. If the obs simply stayed as a motion detector, then it would be better balanced. Pinging somewhere should always reveal cloak, but just moving into range of a cheap, easy to build structure should not wipe out the invisibility.
Also, shouldn't being invisible make it harder to see someone in the dark? Right now, if you are cloaked then you stand out brighter than a neon flashing light bulb in the dark.
Pros:
*Can ambush people, and get an almost guaranteed first/second attack, making ambushing effective.
*Retreating is possible, as long as you get enough distance to cloak, you can counter the inevitable chase and maybe scare them off.
Cons:
*Completely and utterly rendered useless by the observatory.
*Moving when the lights go out actually makes you easier to see.
*Waste of a slot at the moment for skulk, lerk and fade.
I understand that it's the observatories job to be a counter to cloaking, but why does it have to be a complete counter? Being cloaked doesn't hide you when you move due to the "shimmer" that an observant marine will notice. If the obs simply stayed as a motion detector, then it would be better balanced. Pinging somewhere should always reveal cloak, but just moving into range of a cheap, easy to build structure should not wipe out the invisibility.
Also, shouldn't being invisible make it harder to see someone in the dark? Right now, if you are cloaked then you stand out brighter than a neon flashing light bulb in the dark.
Comments
Considering the observatory (and for experienced commanders, simple scans) utterly destroys cloaking, Aliens should at least enjoy the benefit of being completely concealed, if anything at least in rooms without power.
That said, if you're standing right in what would normally be plain sight while cloaked, you're generally going to be noticed for your shimmer. Even while cloaked you should still be relatively hidden, marines have to waste precious time to cautiously scan over each room in great detail before moving in to it, if you're in a place that on its own is hard to get a look at, or unlikely to be looked at, you'll still have enough time to ambush (or escape) before the marine(s) notice you, assuming they even do.
And all this is in relation to pubs. I'd imagine in competitive games, the reduced movement speed needed to use cloak, and the time and effort required to deal with cloaked aliens are things neither side would want to focus on, not to mention competitive marines would likely be better trained at noticing cloaks.
But, I'm relatively new. This is just my take on cloaking from my brief time playing with it. I am rarely discovered while cloaked, and when I do take advantage of it I am very likely to get the upper hand because I position myself somewhere they won't notice, or I only move while cloaked when they aren't even facing my general direction. I see it more of an advantage to staying in a room that unsuspecting marines enter, then still being able to plan an attack after they already think its empty.
what would be better for 1 is that if cloaking happened instantly when you hold shift to walk, but it used your energy when you were cloaked.
However, I have to agree that Observatory is quite overpowered. Though if this was to be changed, then a lot of map design has to change, else certain rooms will be impossible for marines to hold, especially the double extractor points, such as Lava Falls and Nano Grid.
At the moment, it appears to simply be an opacity thing. Reduce the opacity of the lifeform, making the pixels behind the lifeform blend with the pixels that make up the lifeform. Unfortunately this means that the pixels which make up the cloaking lifeform are still somewhat visible. Combine this with the evolutionary ability humans have to detect any movement, no matter how slight, in our peripheral vision, and you have something that is completely useless. It is almost guaranteed, even in situations where opacity is reduced by 99%, that any movement will be detected basically instantly.
What is instead required is distortion, similar to heat effects you see in most modern day game engines. This involves the cloaking lifeform being 100% invisible, which is to say that none of the pixels which make up the lifeform are present on the screen. Instead, any pixel in the background which is viewed through the lifeform has its position modified by some transform, creating that sort of rippling water effect. Instead of varying the transparency of the lifeform (which is essentially useless as 90% transparency is just as good as 10% transparency) you ca instead alter the magnitude of the distortion, or the magnitude of a pixels displacement when viewed through the lifeform.
As I'm sure many who have encountered this effect in games are aware, it is by no means impossible to see, but it can be incredibly difficult to see when distortion is relatively low, even during movement. What such a cloaking implementation would result in is the potential to have skulks "cloaked" at all speeds, even when running at full speed, as the distortion can simply be increased and increased, to the point where the position of the lifeform is obvious, however the distortion effect would still conceal the outline of the lifeform, which can be beneficial. I think this would make camouflage viable.
Frankly I think that would make it even worse. That water shader effect is the most played-out thing ever.
So we are opposed to tried and tested solutions? Well that's going to make solving this difficult. Good luck reinventing the wheel.
For cloak to work successfully marines need to not have heard you, you need to be sitting still enough to have cloaked, and you need to be doing this on the front line.
As has also been mentioned, you can't use it near an observatory. So it becomes kind of useless in a way, unless you are waiting for marines to come to you (which is a valid tactic in this game) but again, it has no use when in battles.
Also, if you are using it defensively and the comm scans the area, it again becomes a bit useless.
Something I think it should do above and beyond its cloaking ability is:
- When marines spot a life form, this info is not relayed to other marines minimaps (including commanders)
- Scan reveals units, but for a much shorter period of time
- I like the idea that they don't show up on the minimap at all until scanned (and then for only for a minute or two, or until they die), but perhaps this is a bit OP?
There are little changes that could be introduced to make this a much more sort after upgrades, as currently no one really bothers with it.
Good point Desther!
And I failed to see one commander, that spams obs in the whole map and wins. Also a scan doesn't make the upgrade useless. A scan costs 3 resources. Using cloak excessively, can seriously cripple the marine economy. Plus, you know when you got scanned. Just move out and force another scan later.
Also I have played a few times with a cloak skulk now. (In beta that wasn't possible, because it was always hive3.) And from this games I see cloak already as very powerful. I could hide in plain sight on the ground. As gorge and as skulk with multiple players passing by, not seeing me. I don't know if it were noobs that didn't mentioned the outline yet, or if this outline is actually a bug. Because as I tried it in beta as marine vs a cloaked alien, I could only see a nearly not mentionable outline at all. (I remember someone said, that with deactivated bloom, the outline is way easier to notice.) So the first thing to do is to check if it is bugged, before discussing the balance.
Anyway. On a constructive side node. Cloak would be better if it would work with full movement speed, but would gradually increase your visibility the faster you move. If you stand still, you should be 100% invisible. But if moving fast, you should be visible enough to mention, but harder to aim at than an uncloaked skulk until your first bite. (Not decloaking when you got hit.) This would give cloak combat viability by making you harder to hit.
- a partially transparent object is obvious in motion. Either the motion of the object, or motion of the viewer. Cloaking is best at letting you hide, but if all the skulks hide, you aren't going to be winning.
- if you are on a public server, moving in a group with another skulk, and you did not pick the same stealth trait, then the enemy will both see and hear you...
- an observatory appears to cover quite a large area.
IMHO, the celerity/adren/carapace/regen upgrades let you exploit your strengths - good players become great. The stealth upgrades just let you exploit your opponent's "noobiness".
It's been mentioned that adding 'focus' would make stealth suck less (although I can't honestly remember what it did). Otherwise, I'd rather see cloak as a 100% effective short-duration buff than a 'helps you hide' passive. (and that cloaking which slows down aliens needs to seriously die - not helpful)
you can stand still in a corner, clinging to the roof or peeking from a vent and anything you see will appear on the minimap for your entire team to see and plan their flank etc.
it's also useful for waiting in a room/corridor for a marine to pass, then you pounce on him. normally you would hide in a 'blind spot' and just hope that he doesn't check them when he enters the room.
if alien was underpowered (which i don't feel is true atm) then giving them fully mobile cloak would probably be one of the worst ideas ever to solve it.
learn to play stealth and camo is good.
<!--quoteo(post=2010905:date=Nov 5 2012, 11:41 AM:name=dumbo11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dumbo11 @ Nov 5 2012, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's certainly got a few "flaws":
<b>- a partially transparent object is obvious in motion. Either the motion of the object, or motion of the viewer. Cloaking is best at letting you hide, but if all the skulks hide, you aren't going to be winning.</b>
- if you are on a public server, moving in a group with another skulk, and you did not pick the same stealth trait, then the enemy will both see and hear you...
- an observatory appears to cover quite a large area.
IMHO, the celerity/adren/carapace/regen upgrades let you exploit your strengths - good players become great. The stealth upgrades just let you exploit your opponent's "noobiness".
It's been mentioned that adding 'focus' would make stealth suck less (although I can't honestly remember what it did). Otherwise, I'd rather see cloak as a 100% effective short-duration buff than a 'helps you hide' passive. (and that cloaking which slows down aliens needs to seriously die - not helpful)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
am i the only one who looks at the map before moving out? if you suspect there are marines in an area then you go in... if you hear footsteps etc then you stop and cloak - free invisible skulk ready to ambush. if another skulk has the same idea, you have 2 invisible skulk waiting to ambush...
you make it sound like the only option is to pick a random part of the map and wait there for the entire game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can stand still in a corner, clinging to the roof or peeking from a vent and anything you see will appear on the minimap for your entire team to see and plan their flank etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I often hate when skulks do, just hanging around some ceiling for minutes doing nothing, or only hiding and parasiting, waiting for that perfect ambush that either never comes or comes waaay too late. especially maddening when it's 2 on 2 and you think that if you jump the marines, that other skulk will join you but nope, he's just sitting there. and after you're dead he tries his luck as well but now it's 2 v 1 and he dies as well
Yes this will make cloak more powerful, but the marines will still know an alien is the area if they pay attention to their map. So, this idea doesn't render a part of the marine tech tree useless.
Yes this will make cloak more powerful, but the marines will still know an alien is the area if they pay attention to their map. So, this idea doesn't render a part of the marine tech tree useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, I really don't wanna see cloaked onos walking into Marine start because cloak > everything.
Cloak is very powerful (when your not near an obs), it should be negated easily where marines have been able to build an obs.
If useful SC upgrades are brought back then perhaps the reliance on cloak wont be so great.
Cloak is very powerful (when your not near an obs), it should be negated easily where marines have been able to build an obs.
If useful SC upgrades are brought back then perhaps the reliance on cloak wont be so great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but he will still be on the minimap, the commander can see him, and once he attacks/moves fast the cloak is broken anyway. This change might make it a bit easier to sneak in, but that's all.
I agree with the people that say aliens are getting soft counters to an entire line of their tech, but marines have no such problem.
Yes but remember all of that is "at a cost".
I honestly do think the best solution is to combine Cloak and Silence in one upgrade (both benefits) and make them also immune to motion tracking from both pings and obs... It would mean obs + ping was still a total Hard Counter to Cloak... But this upgrade + shades would be a total hard counter to Motion tracking.
Throwing scent of fear as an extra ability for Shade would also mean that the shade and obs were of equal power:
Shade gives Cloak, Obs removes Cloak, Obs gives Motion Tracking and Shade gives Scent of Fear.
It would also increase the potency of the upgrade substantially and perhaps bring shade up to being a worthy contender as a hive option.
- Shades counter motion tracking. This shouldn't really be a huge problem as it would require the aliens to expand directly up to the observatory, but if there's a shade in a room already and the marines drop an Observatory, they both cancel each other out, so the aliens aren't totally hosed.
- The commander ping can only be performed in rooms where they have power.
- Alternatively, the commander ping only reveals to the commander the aliens in the room. It's up to him to communicate with the guys on the ground as to what to expect in the next room. This way, they KNOW that there's skulks hiding, but they can't just aim at the white blips and run through the door pre-firing at their position.
The idea that I'm going for here is that observatories and ping is the Marines' way of gathering intel, and that they would have to ensure they have power control across the map to gather that intel, rather than simply being able to see everything through walls or anywhere on the map. The aliens' form of intel gathering with Drifters requires them to be manually placed, and they can still be discovered and countered. Marines' intel gathering being basically unlimited aside from the resource cost is just unfair.
However, I wouldn't remove the motion tracking of the obs. I would instead make it so you can avoid the motion tracking by walking (pressing shift). Aliens within range of an obs would still be decloaked, but they could walk to avoid showing up as a blip.
I wonder if a lot of the current problems of marine tech vs aliens could be solved by making the Observatory more expensive? Like 30 or 40 tres. This would delay phase gates, and let shade hive be more useful.
You would have to give the obs stupidly more HP and then it would be almost impossible to kill before the marines beaconed... It would just cause more problems.
<!--quoteo(post=2011109:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:01 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The commander ping can only be performed in rooms where they have power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then what about all the knock on effects?
Marines can drop med/ammo/nano in rooms without power it makes no sence to stop them pinging.
No one likes it when more limitations are added to the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2011109:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:01 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 03:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Observatories only provide motion tracking for the room they're in. Room being the area covered by that particular power node. They do not break cloaking. It doesn't make sense that they do anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This removes so many tactical/strategic elements as to Where you place your obs as well as adding jarring edges to motion tracking at room boarders. No thanks.
Marines can drop med/ammo/nano in rooms without power it makes no sence to stop them pinging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which I also think should go away. The Khamm can't use Nutrient Mist of Bone Wall anywhere except where there's infestation, why should the Comm be exempt from the same rules of territory control? Every Cyst that the Khamm has to drop to expand his infestation is a recurring expense simply to use his 'commander abilities'. That the Comm is totally exempt from this is baffling. He can even drop structures in rooms that don't have power, allowing marines to build both the node and an RT at the same time, whereas the Khamm has to spend time waiting for infestation to spread and dealing with the Cyst cooldown (and fighting with the glitchiness of the placement circles sometimes).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one likes it when more limitations are added to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one likes it when their favorite items in the game gets nerfed, but they can suck it up. The power control / infestation mechanic should be greatly expanded upon, and the gimmicky cross-map ping / area effect all-seeing observatories represent a fairly dumbed-down aspect of the game. Of course people are going to complain that the marines require a bit more effort, but that's sort of the problem with the game as I see it: marine gameplay is straightforward, low-effort, and fairly dumb.
Thats lovely that you dont like it, but thats part of the asymmetry of the game... it wont be removed anytime soon.
With this in mid, like it or not, you have to suggest features that fall in-line with these aspects of the game.
Otherwise <b>your</b> suggestions do not fit in with the game and thus should not be implemented.
Whilst it is lovely to see you suggesting such huge overhauls to the entire game it <b>isnt</b> going to happen.
A: The game is made the way it is, to totally go back to the drawing board and re-do everything isn't feasible 1 week post release.
B: The devs made the game this way for a reason they are not going to totally overhaul everything.
Also, do observatories really only do motion tracking nearby, or do they even reveal stationary targets? Really should be just motion tracking.