From what I've noticed, Aliens are designed around a sort of glass cannon philosophy. By this I mean, they hit hard but can't really take much damage in return. This would be fine if it were a constant thing, however there are some issues with it. The increased spawn times, the down time spent evolving new traits or into new aliens, and the fact that the aliens don't scale make this an issue.
You see, Alien damage actually drops during a game for the most part. As Marines research more armor and weapons, they become harder to kill, even assuming the advantage of an ambush. Making aliens require more hits on a target, and making them capable of taking less hits pretty much ruins the concept of them being hard hitting to begin with.
In short, aliens simply need to be able to scale in damage or health to be comparable to marines in some aspect. Especially since their one advantage, mobility, can be countered rather easily with superior range.
lerk is amazing... umbra = 50% less damage from bullets... spores = marine can't chase, can't walk through the gas without requiring medpack spam from commander, obscured vision, totally weaken fully upgraded marines so skulks can move in and finish them off.
on top of all of that, the ranged 'silent' spike attack is absolutely fantastic if you remain hidden... for clinging onto the ceiling to snipe buildings and sniping lone marines (maybe not kill them if they're any good, but since they can't kill you unless you're playing wrong then any damage tagging is free).
poison bite is very nice in group fights as well because you draw the marine focus and have the mobility to escape, leaving behind a poisoned marine for your allies to finish off.
are you sure you weren't just playing lerk badly?
personally i think a fully upgraded lerk is the most useful alien lifeform in late game... although they probably don't scale as you only need so much gas/umbra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can make them seem good.. but they're not in practice. They don't deal damage. If they deal damage, they're a weak low health/armor unit within melee range of a marine.
Umbra is their only saving grace, and it's a third hive ability.
Honestly, Aliens are not fun to play now. Especially if you are losing, marines you still can have some fun killing some aliens here and then. And aliens don't have too much possible viable strategies now, actually this joke chart sums up pretty much how you should play aliens since b223.
I really hope UWE does some very big changes on the alien team, not only on the balance but on the fun aspect too. You should know when there is something wrong when 'Random' means 'Join Aliens' in like almost every server.
It's sad, the Gorge in its original implementation could have been the perfect class for beginners who weren't ready to fight on the front lines. Granted, they can sit back and do ###### at Hives now, it's no where near as valuable to their team as the original. Alien Com is a joke. Why do we need the symmetry with commanders when more independent Aliens would be a good contrast to Commander-dependent Marines? An entire Alien class has been wiped out because of the Alien Com, and what exactly does this com do for the better then? <i>######' nothing.</i> It's just menial, one-dimensional, machine-like play that could have been fun for more people if it had stuck with the Gorges.
The Aliens had their game chopped up, the Marines had theirs beefed up. Aliens forms now need to expand, build Hives, and research upgrades to even become viable compared to vanilla Marines, lest try to keep up with their superior research and scaling. That's why I honestly think Aliens should all have their abilities by default. Why the hell should I have to wait for Leap and Blink? Why do I have to be a relatively useless Alien until those come up yet the Marines are viable at all stages early on?
I know the UWE guys were going for "Aliens should dominate the map, Marines should take it back." but the implementation is just boring as ###### to play. To win, you have to mass Onos and/or backdoor because the lower lifeforms are simply not sufficient enough to end the game in a straight-forward manner. Yet, the LMG or even Shotgun is sufficient enough to take down an Alien base quickly, and their ability to siege a race with godawful defensive structures that can easily get cornered or out-ranged just gets infinitely more insane with Grenade Launchers, Jetpacks, ARCs, Exos, and so on.
<!--quoteo(post=2011350:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:48 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens require advanced teamwork, have advanced and unintuitive movement techniques, have less direction overall, require you to be able to outsmart marines, have better timing, and use stealth, as well as having good aim?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->A certain set of players really like the Aliens exactly because they are frequently unintuitive and harder for new players. It gives them a feeling of accomplishment (aka superiority) to know more than their 'peers'.
<!--quoteo(post=2011980:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:18 AM:name=Ansom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ansom @ Nov 6 2012, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorge = Sucks cos it cant build lolforts... waa waa waa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, whilst the gorge has lost its signature ability, and the key reason a great deal of us fell in love with it, it has in no way lost its useful ness at all. Infact I would go as far as to say it has become more useful due to being less shackled to base building and instead able to spend more time in combat healing and bile bombing.
Gorge playes a <b>key</b> role for the khara side allowing them to move the attack back to the marines by providing forward healing for Fades (means they don't have to go ALL the way back to the hive) and also providing the best means to destroy marine bases in the form of bile bomb.
They are also the MAIN weapon vs arcs and a VERY important weapon vs late game exo rushes.
I think its been mentioned that gorges will get some lovin in the future. They intend to bring in more buildable structures, so that the gorge can assist the commander in expanding the bases and whatnot.
Which sounds fantastic to me. Alien expansion seems a little more automated, having a class that's built around assisting that seems like a great deal of fun for players who aren't suited to front line fighting.
<!--quoteo(post=2011795:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:24 PM:name=Syriquez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syriquez @ Nov 5 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->* This point is probably one of my biggest criticisms of NS2 versus NS1. The NS1 Skulks had a much more suicidal outlook on their actions than the Marines, where surviving to push to a hive location or to plant RTs was a vital accomplishment that required while the Skulk could simply serve as a distraction or harassment to stall the Marines and not worry about having to wait 10-15 seconds before respawning. In NS2, this situation has entirely flipped over, with Alien respawn taking so long and the tradeoff in value being so much higher. And in NS2, I don't think I ever see a Marine Commander actually <i>drop</i> gear for his Marines. And when I do, it's one or two items which is much more plausible to fight against than the "SUDDENLY: 3-5 EXOSUITS/7 JETPACKS" situation NS2 has with team resources buffing personal resources. I fully support player purchases of weaponry from the Armory (not having to drop Welders is the best thing ever) but the Prototype Lab purchases have always been a sore point for me.
---
<b>TL;DR:</b> NS1 vet's complaints and suggestions that are surely going to have no effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
=]
A lot of us get the feeling.
Well, try to stay optimistic that eventually the signal-to-noise ratio gets good enough the devs listen.
Also, +1 to Skulks being kamikaze badasses in NS1. We used to play "who can get more bites on the Heavy" and still felt like we were contributing. In NS2 you feel like you failed.
<!--quoteo(post=2012007:date=Nov 6 2012, 12:46 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree, whilst the gorge has lost its signature ability, and the key reason a great deal of us fell in love with it, it has in no way lost its useful ness at all. Infact I would go as far as to say it has become more useful due to being less shackled to base building and instead able to spend more time in combat healing and bile bombing.
Gorge playes a <b>key</b> role for the khara side allowing them to move the attack back to the marines by providing forward healing for Fades (means they don't have to go ALL the way back to the hive) and also providing the best means to destroy marine bases in the form of bile bomb.
They are also the MAIN weapon vs arcs and a VERY important weapon vs late game exo rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
rofl gorges are useless bro, they're like crags but ######. The only thing they're good for are blocking off a section of the map and thats even pretty ###### and bile bombing. I dont even stop to heal at gorges anymore unless im a skulk, its quicker to run to the hive and to return to battle then stand there at a ###### gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=2012492:date=Nov 6 2012, 09:01 PM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Nov 6 2012, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->gorge is garbage, hydras should be free, there's no reason for them to cost res, at all.
it dies fast, it's projectile is HORRIBLE, i mean HORRRRIBLE.
Skulk is too big, and walljump is awful compared to something fun like strafe jumping in q3, or bunnyhopping in ns1
Fade dies too fast, shadowstep is a terrible idea for a movement skill. It's damage is WAY too low.
Lerk isn't bad but it should just have ranged spores, seriously. It dies too fast, this is getting worse as people learn how to shoot the bird alien.
Onos is powerful, useful.
The problem is everything but the onos.
Gorge needs total overhaul, give him more buildings. Make hydras WORTH the res, make them like 5 res each, make them ABLE to kill marines.
THE REALLY OBVIOUS IDEA FOR BUILDINGS: Let the gorge build new buildings depending on what hives you have built! OMG gorge suddenly interesting!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would actually play lerk if it had ranged spores instead of saving for onos every game.
Gorge is good it's just even more boring than medic in tf2. Some people do still seem to enjoy it though, and calling it a ###### crag is as far as I can tell not accurate. Seems like the healing rate is very fast from gorges.
<!--quoteo(post=2012526:date=Nov 6 2012, 09:47 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 6 2012, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorge is good it's just even more boring than medic in tf2. Some people do still seem to enjoy it though, and calling it a ###### crag is as far as I can tell not accurate. Seems like the healing rate is very fast from gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not when its been healing the whole game and is waiting for energy. 1 heal every 1.5secs is pretty crap. It was useful with old adrenaline. Its more worthwhile to run back to the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2012527:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:49 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 6 2012, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not when its been healing the whole game and is waiting for energy. 1 heal every 1.5secs is pretty crap. It was useful with old adrenaline. Its more worthwhile to run back to the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you need to heal so much that you are at the point where you never take your finger off mouse 1, surprise surprise, you are doing something wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2012530:date=Nov 6 2012, 09:55 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 6 2012, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you need to heal so much that you are at the point where you never take your finger off mouse 1, surprise surprise, you are doing something wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've never sat around a corner constantly healing as life forms flee from battle that need healing? You need to go back and play the game a bit more instead of your elitist L2play comment. And mouse 1 has nothing to do with heal, Just goes to show how much time you actually spend playing the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2012535:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:00 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 6 2012, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You've never sat around a corner constantly healing as life forms flee from battle that need healing? You need to go back and play the game a bit more instead of your elitist L2play comment. And mouse 1 has nothing to do with heal, Just goes to show how much time you actually spend playing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you want permanent, high output healing, mobile and on demand?
Tell me, if I went into that thread complaining about armories, would I find a post by you? Do you want me to go and look? It would be awfully embarrassing for you if I did.
<!--quoteo(post=2012542:date=Nov 6 2012, 10:05 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 6 2012, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you want permanent, high output healing, mobile and on demand?
Tell me, if I went into that thread complaining about armories, would I find a post by you? Do you want me to go and look? It would be awfully embarrassing for you if I did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go and find a post by me in that thread complaining about armories.
I would like gorge healing questionable whether to return to crag clusters and spam for healing wave or run back to hive, Or stand there and get healed by a gorge.
I tell the gorges following, "im just gonna go back to the hive its quicker"
Comments
You see, Alien damage actually drops during a game for the most part. As Marines research more armor and weapons, they become harder to kill, even assuming the advantage of an ambush. Making aliens require more hits on a target, and making them capable of taking less hits pretty much ruins the concept of them being hard hitting to begin with.
In short, aliens simply need to be able to scale in damage or health to be comparable to marines in some aspect. Especially since their one advantage, mobility, can be countered rather easily with superior range.
lerk is amazing... umbra = 50% less damage from bullets... spores = marine can't chase, can't walk through the gas without requiring medpack spam from commander, obscured vision, totally weaken fully upgraded marines so skulks can move in and finish them off.
on top of all of that, the ranged 'silent' spike attack is absolutely fantastic if you remain hidden... for clinging onto the ceiling to snipe buildings and sniping lone marines (maybe not kill them if they're any good, but since they can't kill you unless you're playing wrong then any damage tagging is free).
poison bite is very nice in group fights as well because you draw the marine focus and have the mobility to escape, leaving behind a poisoned marine for your allies to finish off.
are you sure you weren't just playing lerk badly?
personally i think a fully upgraded lerk is the most useful alien lifeform in late game... although they probably don't scale as you only need so much gas/umbra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can make them seem good.. but they're not in practice. They don't deal damage. If they deal damage, they're a weak low health/armor unit within melee range of a marine.
Umbra is their only saving grace, and it's a third hive ability.
And aliens don't have too much possible viable strategies now, actually this joke chart sums up pretty much how you should play aliens since b223.
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/qCAbi.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/qCAbi.jpg</a>
I really hope UWE does some very big changes on the alien team, not only on the balance but on the fun aspect too. You should know when there is something wrong when 'Random' means 'Join Aliens' in like almost every server.
The Aliens had their game chopped up, the Marines had theirs beefed up. Aliens forms now need to expand, build Hives, and research upgrades to even become viable compared to vanilla Marines, lest try to keep up with their superior research and scaling. That's why I honestly think Aliens should all have their abilities by default. Why the hell should I have to wait for Leap and Blink? Why do I have to be a relatively useless Alien until those come up yet the Marines are viable at all stages early on?
I know the UWE guys were going for "Aliens should dominate the map, Marines should take it back." but the implementation is just boring as ###### to play. To win, you have to mass Onos and/or backdoor because the lower lifeforms are simply not sufficient enough to end the game in a straight-forward manner. Yet, the LMG or even Shotgun is sufficient enough to take down an Alien base quickly, and their ability to siege a race with godawful defensive structures that can easily get cornered or out-ranged just gets infinitely more insane with Grenade Launchers, Jetpacks, ARCs, Exos, and so on.
just lol...
I disagree, whilst the gorge has lost its signature ability, and the key reason a great deal of us fell in love with it, it has in no way lost its useful ness at all. Infact I would go as far as to say it has become more useful due to being less shackled to base building and instead able to spend more time in combat healing and bile bombing.
Gorge playes a <b>key</b> role for the khara side allowing them to move the attack back to the marines by providing forward healing for Fades (means they don't have to go ALL the way back to the hive) and also providing the best means to destroy marine bases in the form of bile bomb.
They are also the MAIN weapon vs arcs and a VERY important weapon vs late game exo rushes.
Which sounds fantastic to me. Alien expansion seems a little more automated, having a class that's built around assisting that seems like a great deal of fun for players who aren't suited to front line fighting.
The NS1 Skulks had a much more suicidal outlook on their actions than the Marines, where surviving to push to a hive location or to plant RTs was a vital accomplishment that required while the Skulk could simply serve as a distraction or harassment to stall the Marines and not worry about having to wait 10-15 seconds before respawning. In NS2, this situation has entirely flipped over, with Alien respawn taking so long and the tradeoff in value being so much higher.
And in NS2, I don't think I ever see a Marine Commander actually <i>drop</i> gear for his Marines. And when I do, it's one or two items which is much more plausible to fight against than the "SUDDENLY: 3-5 EXOSUITS/7 JETPACKS" situation NS2 has with team resources buffing personal resources. I fully support player purchases of weaponry from the Armory (not having to drop Welders is the best thing ever) but the Prototype Lab purchases have always been a sore point for me.
---
<b>TL;DR:</b> NS1 vet's complaints and suggestions that are surely going to have no effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
=]
A lot of us get the feeling.
Well, try to stay optimistic that eventually the signal-to-noise ratio gets good enough the devs listen.
Also, +1 to Skulks being kamikaze badasses in NS1. We used to play "who can get more bites on the Heavy" and still felt like we were contributing. In NS2 you feel like you failed.
Gorge playes a <b>key</b> role for the khara side allowing them to move the attack back to the marines by providing forward healing for Fades (means they don't have to go ALL the way back to the hive) and also providing the best means to destroy marine bases in the form of bile bomb.
They are also the MAIN weapon vs arcs and a VERY important weapon vs late game exo rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
rofl gorges are useless bro, they're like crags but ######. The only thing they're good for are blocking off a section of the map and thats even pretty ###### and bile bombing. I dont even stop to heal at gorges anymore unless im a skulk, its quicker to run to the hive and to return to battle then stand there at a ###### gorge.
it dies fast, it's projectile is HORRIBLE, i mean HORRRRIBLE.
Skulk is too big, and walljump is awful compared to something fun like strafe jumping in q3, or bunnyhopping in ns1
Fade dies too fast, shadowstep is a terrible idea for a movement skill. It's damage is WAY too low.
Lerk isn't bad but it should just have ranged spores, seriously. It dies too fast, this is getting worse as people learn how to shoot the bird alien.
Onos is powerful, useful.
The problem is everything but the onos.
Gorge needs total overhaul, give him more buildings. Make hydras WORTH the res, make them like 5 res each, make them ABLE to kill marines.
THE REALLY OBVIOUS IDEA FOR BUILDINGS: Let the gorge build new buildings depending on what hives you have built! OMG gorge suddenly interesting!
it dies fast, it's projectile is HORRIBLE, i mean HORRRRIBLE.
Skulk is too big, and walljump is awful compared to something fun like strafe jumping in q3, or bunnyhopping in ns1
Fade dies too fast, shadowstep is a terrible idea for a movement skill. It's damage is WAY too low.
Lerk isn't bad but it should just have ranged spores, seriously. It dies too fast, this is getting worse as people learn how to shoot the bird alien.
Onos is powerful, useful.
The problem is everything but the onos.
Gorge needs total overhaul, give him more buildings. Make hydras WORTH the res, make them like 5 res each, make them ABLE to kill marines.
THE REALLY OBVIOUS IDEA FOR BUILDINGS: Let the gorge build new buildings depending on what hives you have built! OMG gorge suddenly interesting!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would actually play lerk if it had ranged spores instead of saving for onos every game.
Its not when its been healing the whole game and is waiting for energy. 1 heal every 1.5secs is pretty crap. It was useful with old adrenaline. Its more worthwhile to run back to the hive.
If you need to heal so much that you are at the point where you never take your finger off mouse 1, surprise surprise, you are doing something wrong.
You've never sat around a corner constantly healing as life forms flee from battle that need healing? You need to go back and play the game a bit more instead of your elitist L2play comment. And mouse 1 has nothing to do with heal, Just goes to show how much time you actually spend playing the game.
So you want permanent, high output healing, mobile and on demand?
Tell me, if I went into that thread complaining about armories, would I find a post by you? Do you want me to go and look? It would be awfully embarrassing for you if I did.
Tell me, if I went into that thread complaining about armories, would I find a post by you? Do you want me to go and look? It would be awfully embarrassing for you if I did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go and find a post by me in that thread complaining about armories.
I would like gorge healing questionable whether to return to crag clusters and spam for healing wave or run back to hive, Or stand there and get healed by a gorge.
I tell the gorges following, "im just gonna go back to the hive its quicker"