<!--quoteo(post=2008819:date=Nov 3 2012, 08:27 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- ARC cannons. Tech 1 and only require a single upgrade, and are relatively cheap. Used for breaking sieges and can fire through walls. Why is this even a thing? How could the marines possibly have a need for such a weapon? Between Exos, grenade launchers, and egglocking, it's the ALIENS who have a harder time breaking a marine turtle. In fact, an alien turtle almost isn't even a thing that exists.
- Faster respawning, less downtime, more pres. Dropped guns can be rescued so they get free upgrades. They spawn with a pile of extremely powerful upgrades and can put up a fight directly from the IP.
- Weapon / Armor upgrades. Tech 1, requires no expansion. They don't have to visit an armory or spend time and pres getting a top-of-the-line LMG and new suit of body armor, they just 'have' it, no matter where they are or what they're doing.
- Armories nearly instantly restore ammo, health, AND armor. How could anyone seriously think that this was a good idea?
- Observatories. Tech 1, completely counters the entire Shade upgrade tree in a huge area through walls around it. Commander can then use pings anywhere on the map, even where he has no power, and see everything he wants. Motion tracking offered as completely free upgrade.
- MACs. Your base got busted up? You don't even need to dedicate marines to defense and repairs. Aliens buy themselves absolutely no time by attacking and not destroying a marine base. Just crank out a few dirt-cheap MACs and free your soldiers from the despair of actually repairing things. Meanwhile, aliens get a cute little guy whose whole job is to hold down M2, and an 'automated unit' that's totally useless and gets stuck behind half the hives you spawn it at.
- Power nodes are almost totally optional. Most marines don't even bother building them unless they REALLY want buildings there. It takes only 12 seconds to build one with a welder, and they're completely free, and they never need replacement, only ever repairs.
- Maps are lit up like a hospital. Even after a power node is destroyed, emergency lighting clicks on that is just as bright, if not brighter than before.
- Power nodes are incredibly strong. So strong, in fact, that I usually see aliens just going for the extractor in the room, because it's not worth wasting time destroying the completely free-to-replace-and-repair power node.
- No need to expand, just grab a few res nodes. Marines can turtle their way through most of their tech tree and still come out strong.
- Phase gates, sprint, recall, and dropping weapons for extra speed completely mitigates any mythical 'speed advantage' that the aliens have. Bonus points for the melee attack with the LMG as well.
- Much more effective HUD and UI, including a minimap.
- Sentries that operate completely independently of power situation, can shoot Fades through blink, have perfect accuracy against everything.
- Commander assists that can be dropped anywhere at any time. Not even limited to rooms that have power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen questions like these many times from new players so I'll answer them here
- ARCs are important. It doesn't matter what tech they are as they are in a good place now. If you played a game and lost to early ARCs then your team was BAD. They are a complete waste of resources unless you need them to break through multiple whip and gorge emplacements. Aliens have a hard time to break through turtles but not a Harder time. It just comes down to alien teams being bad. As in not working together and the commander not knowing what to do. If a marine team turtles, it doesn't matter how much ######e they have a bunch of oni on their power node is a definate gg. You don't even have to do that though. Depending on the map several gorges with bile bombs will wear down a base faster than they can repair it. A commander can spam cysts like crazy as long as you send distractions in and then you get shifted whips in. You can always just camp outside the enemy base and wear them down with crags and shifts. Gorges are more than enough for a siege unit for aliens. If you want to ###### about marine spawns then also ###### about shifts which allow aliens to spawn <b>anywhere on the map</b>. You can even teleport eggs without the shift actually being there!
- Alien upgrades are worth more than marine upgrades. W1 = skulks take 1 less bullet to kill. I'm sure you can compare this to any of the alien upgrades and see what I mean. Weapons are worth resources. This isn't an average fps, it's a strategy game. A 20 res shotgun can kill a 0 res skulk a bit easier, but once the marine is dead, goodbye 20 res. Not to mention if they lose their arms lab and advanced armory, they will lose all of their upgrades unlike aliens and they won't be able to make the protolab or purchase advanced weapons.
- Armouries are worth a lot in important areas, but getting them there is hard. Sure they restock hp and ammo, but marines can die fast even beside an armoury, while aliens regenerate everything. They are also worth the same as 10 ammo or health drops, and the time building it plus the power node. 2 of them are worth a shotgun or an upgrade.
- guess what scans cost resources. Using them early can actually lose you a game, and they definately slow down your macro play. Not to mention Shades cost as much as like 3 scans I think? And they have other abilities.
- MACs are not that useful. First, the robo-bay is not that useful, by the time you get one usually the game is more than halfway over. They can't repair in combat because they stop moving when attacked. Aliens don't even need power nodes, and their structures <b>build themselves</b>. Alien commanders barely ever have to lift a finger or use their microphone. How is that for holding hands? You want to compare that to the drifter? With proper drifter placement you can see the <b>whole map indefinitely</b>, they make your aliens <b>twice as deadly</b> and when they attack they stop marines in their place.
- Power nodes are one of the biggest weaknesses in marine defence and expansion. Do you play this game?
- And aliens can't save up res for bigger aliens or defences themselves? No jetpacks no exos against a ton of fades and oni, do you know why proto lab is so important against those? Do you know what it's like playing a good alien team with full map control? I think not.
- Marines need those advantages. They need those for balance. I'm sure you can ask anyone who was in the alpha what it was like playing without phasegates, and you'll see why it's one of the most important tech paths in the game.
- that's your opinion
- sentries are the biggest reason why most marine teams lose. Simple. You build these before anything else, you lose. They are huge res sinks and the defence they provide is minuscule compared to the cost of going down the robo tech path and getting sentries everywhere. The only real use they have is to support marines and get rid of lower the hp of pesky lerks that like to fly by them. A good commander will build these only after he has built every other building in the game, or the game is already over.
- Welcome to playing a RTS game. You can spam 20 meds on a marine to keep him alive against skulks, but grats you spent that much res to kill aliens that cost 0 res themselves, not to mention missing medpacks or using them and then the marine achieving nothing. You lost the fight essentially by being a dumb commander. I know you hate armouries too, they are infinite support for only 10 res compared to the amount you will spend on giving ammo and health to marines during a push.
good post neorussia, it's the post i would have made if i hadn't lost patience with the balance whiners.
the 'marine imba' balance whine is ironic because if anything it's marine which are more difficult to play at higher skill level. just spent about 6 hours watching tournament stream and aliens can leave their 2nd or 3rd hive for dead by attacking the undefended enemy harvesters instead - then come out far ahead. it's far more punishing for marines.
it actually reminds me a lot of SC2... there's not enough data to support an 'imbalance' claim there either, but terran is certainly more difficult in that it's ridiculously hard to recover unless your opponent makes a big mistake. late game protoss or zerg can literally lose their 200/200 army and recover, terran losing their 200/200 army almost always downward spirals into death.
1) Alien mobility. Or lack thereof. We need hive teleportation back. Shifts can somewhat mitigate this, but "making skulks" is no adequate replacement for the ability to quickly move for example gorges around the map. Marines can split and join forces much faster than aliens.
1) Alien upgrades. The way it is now you're locked with your upgrade choice. If I go lerk and the commander gets carapace I will get me carapace. If we get regeneration 3 minutes later I'm still stuck with carapace until I die. We should be able to swap out upgrades. Perhaps only inside a hive room, or for a small res penalty to prevent exploiting the system. Alternatively we could go back to the NS1 system where dropping the upgrade structure unlocks all upgrades of that type at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=2009618:date=Nov 4 2012, 02:39 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 4 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Two things I see as problematic.
1) Alien mobility. Or lack thereof. We need hive teleportation back. Shifts can somewhat mitigate this, but "making skulks" is no adequate replacement for the ability to quickly move for example gorges around the map. Marines can split and join forces much faster than aliens.
1) Alien upgrades. The way it is now you're locked with your upgrade choice. If I go lerk and the commander gets carapace I will get me carapace. If we get regeneration 3 minutes later I'm still stuck with carapace until I die. We should be able to swap out upgrades. Perhaps only inside a hive room, or for a small res penalty to prevent exploiting the system. Alternatively we could go back to the NS1 system where dropping the upgrade structure unlocks all upgrades of that type at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your second point would be nice, but if you plan on getting regeneration then you could just skip carapace and wait for it to research... therefore it's a very minor change.
regarding alien mobility... i'm disappointed that anyone would call for a boring mirror 'distress beacon' ability. aliens are much quicker than marines about the map, and although marines are often unstoppable when they're beating down a hive - that's usually your que to exploit the undefended areas and cause havok on their resources. forcing them to either use distress beacon or take severe losses.
<!--quoteo(post=2009138:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:17 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Nov 4 2012, 04:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen questions like these many times from new players so I'll answer them here
- ARCs are important. It doesn't matter what tech they are as they are in a good place now. If you played a game and lost to early ARCs then your team was BAD. They are a complete waste of resources unless you need them to break through multiple whip and gorge emplacements. <b>Aliens have a hard time to break through turtles but not a Harder time.</b>
- Alien upgrades are worth more than marine upgrades. W1 = skulks take 1 less bullet to kill. I'm sure you can compare this to any of the alien upgrades and see what I mean. Weapons are worth resources. This isn't an average fps, it's a strategy game. A 20 res shotgun can kill a 0 res skulk a bit easier, but once the marine is dead, goodbye 20 res. <b>Not to mention if they lose their arms lab and advanced armory, they will lose all of their upgrades unlike aliens and they won't be able to make the protolab or purchase advanced weapons.</b>
- Armouries are worth a lot in important areas, but getting them there is hard. Sure they restock hp and ammo <i><b>(And Armour)</b></i>, but marines can die fast even beside an armoury, while aliens regenerate everything. They are also worth the same as 10 ammo or health drops, and the time building it plus the power node. 2 of them are worth a shotgun or an upgrade.
- sentries are the <b>biggest reason why most marine teams lose.</b> Simple. You build these before anything else, you lose. They are huge res sinks and the defence they provide is minuscule compared to the cost of going down the robo tech path and getting sentries everywhere. The only real use they have is to support marines and get rid of lower the hp of pesky lerks that like to fly by them. A good commander will build these only after he has built every other building in the game, or the game is already over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as I appreciate the anti troll lets not be too hasty.
Firstly lol... Aliens do have a much harder time breaking turtles than marines... Armoury blocking + absurd healing rates + recycleable weapons + gls omagurd dmg = Hard to kill. (The problems here are armor healing armories + gls being borked... Others may argue its also due to all but JP + Exo working with 1 tech point.)
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All upgrades die if you kill the arms lab? Well not really.. they just build another one. Also, one does not just kill an arms lab.
You cant waltzer into a base and kill the armslab because everything else is MORE important than the armslab.
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Aliens work on hit and run, armouries restoring marines to 100% everything means hit and run doesn't work simple as.
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Sentries... Lol lets talk sentries. Play veil, find alien hive... rush other 2 hives, drop mines and sentries, wait for phase tech... make arcs... siege last hive. Who needs weapon upgrades when you have sentries, mines and arcs and they cant get bile bomb?
If they have 1 hive, and you have an armoury, phase gate, 1000 mines and 3 sentries in every other hive, its gee gee. This is due to bilebomb requiring two hives, not sentries being broken. I think spit should do building damage (2x dmg to buildings, exos and arcs) or have DOT effect of Bile-bomb but obviously only on those they hit not an area effect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- sentries are the biggest reason why most marine teams lose. Simple. You build these before anything else, you lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love how people say this. These are the same people who will handwave away any kind of marine attack and say "Oh if you just attack their undefended base they'll all bacon and you can kill the exos!" Obviously we're missing the connection here that skulks don't fare too well against sentries...
So what is it, do sentries make you lose or does using bacon make you lose?
I can't count the number of times where 90% of the marines are in one area, so myself and another guy or two decide to attack their "empty" base. Sentries + a lone defender + the commander who leaps out of his chair with a shotgun makes it very hard. Additionally, without bilebombs or an onos, the damage you can do is very limited.
If you are marines attacking a hive, and it's failed, what's the one thing you can do to do the most damage? Use your shotgun (which is insanely overpowered versus structures) and blow away the upgrade buildings. It only takes seconds and sets back the aliens a huge amount of resources.
If you're attacking the marine base, and it's failed, what's the one thing you can do to do the most damage? Let's assume you don't have bilebombs, because bile bombs are in no way analogous to a shotgun. All you have are upgraded skulks and a Fade. What's the ONE thing you can destroy that will do the MOST damage.
The IPs? No, they have many of them. The power node? The attack is already failed, the power node will be repaired for free in seconds. The arms lab? Again, it's easily replaced and is only a temporary inconvenience. The only thing I can think of is the armory, just because you have to upgrade a new one to an advanced armory. Best of luck though, marine structures are quite durable and skulks and fades are highly ineffective at destroying them quickly.
I'm serious about the shotgun vs. structures thing. It's ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=2009626:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:47 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 4 2012, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->your second point would be nice, but if you plan on getting regeneration then you could just skip carapace and wait for it to research... therefore it's a very minor change.
regarding alien mobility... i'm disappointed that anyone would call for a boring mirror 'distress beacon' ability. aliens are much quicker than marines about the map, and although marines are often unstoppable when they're beating down a hive - that's usually your que to exploit the undefended areas and cause havok on their resources. forcing them to either use distress beacon or take severe losses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not really feasible especially in a pub game where you often have no idea when or if the commander will research a certain upgrade. And even if you do know that there can always be a change of plans for any reason. Playing higher lifeforms without available upgrades for an indefinite amount of time because the commander might get another upgrade any moment now doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
On the second point I want to remind everyone that hive teleport is not the same as distress beacon, nor phase gate. It's limited to hive->hive and perhaps shift->hive teleportation.
<!--quoteo(post=2009658:date=Nov 4 2012, 03:17 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 4 2012, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not really feasible especially in a pub game where you often have no idea when or if the commander will research a certain upgrade. And even if you do know that there can always be a change of plans for any reason. Playing higher lifeforms without available upgrades for an indefinite amount of time because the commander might get another upgrade any moment now doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
On the second point I want to remind everyone that hive teleport is not the same as distress beacon, nor phase gate. It's limited to hive->hive and perhaps shift->hive teleportation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's worked fine for me... i see carapace upgrade available, so i ask the commander to research regeneration. it's also common sense, if you have 3 hives and lots of extractors then you know that upgrades will be available in a few minutes.
i don't like the hive teleport idea mainly because it doesn't suit what i believe to be the intended alien playstyle where you use speed to base trade and destroy staging areas or extractors, instead of 'panic defending' your hive. if you must engage, then you'll want to flank those marines for maximum efficiency. merely teleporting everyone to the hive will likely just get you all killed by grenade spam before you can do anything, then continually get spawn killed for an instalose.
<!--quoteo(post=2009648:date=Nov 4 2012, 03:11 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 4 2012, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love how people say this. These are the same people who will handwave away any kind of marine attack and say "Oh if you just attack their undefended base they'll all bacon and you can kill the exos!" Obviously we're missing the connection here that skulks don't fare too well against sentries...
So what is it, do sentries make you lose or does using bacon make you lose?
<b>I can't count the number of times where 90% of the marines are in one area, so myself and another guy or two decide to attack their "empty" base. Sentries + a lone defender + the commander who leaps out of his chair with a shotgun makes it very hard. Additionally, without bilebombs or an onos, the damage you can do is very limited.</b>
If you are marines attacking a hive, and it's failed, what's the one thing you can do to do the most damage? Use your shotgun (which is insanely overpowered versus structures) and blow away the upgrade buildings. It only takes seconds and sets back the aliens a huge amount of resources.
If you're attacking the marine base, and it's failed, what's the one thing you can do to do the most damage? Let's assume you don't have bilebombs, because bile bombs are in no way analogous to a shotgun. All you have are upgraded skulks and a Fade. What's the ONE thing you can destroy that will do the MOST damage.
The IPs? No, they have many of them. The power node? The attack is already failed, the power node will be repaired for free in seconds. The arms lab? Again, it's easily replaced and is only a temporary inconvenience. The only thing I can think of is the armory, just because you have to upgrade a new one to an advanced armory. Best of luck though, marine structures are quite durable and skulks and fades are highly ineffective at destroying them quickly.
I'm serious about the shotgun vs. structures thing. It's ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
90% of the marines are somewhere, and you have sentry + commander + defender in the base you attacked? wtf... 20 v 20 server? i hesitate to ask why you didn't attack the more isolated bases/extractors? did they all have a lone defender as well? 50 v 50 server?
once you take down a phase gate then marines are completely stranded... you're almost free to kill every single extractor they have. when they come back to rebuild the extractors, you should be able to take control of the most key areas of the map.
like I wrote in the other thread, I find it redundant to have intricate strategies and mechanics, when the optimal tactic is to buy a shotgun, find a phase gate and go kill ######.
I like how abundant and intricate the modular arsenal of the mariners is, but I really dislike how all it's pieces are nothing but additional salt in the wound of the aliens. Either marines get trambled or they kill aliens with relative ease with their gadget of choice.
Marines should be balanced to be paranoid and scared by aliens - they should have a harsher penalty for dying (long spawn times, no infini-reinforcement) so their defensive buildings and gear would play a much greater role in their base being safe, and 5 guys with shotguns should not be a better alternative than mixing dmg and support weapons and bringing an ARC
Comments
- Faster respawning, less downtime, more pres. Dropped guns can be rescued so they get free upgrades. They spawn with a pile of extremely powerful upgrades and can put up a fight directly from the IP.
- Weapon / Armor upgrades. Tech 1, requires no expansion. They don't have to visit an armory or spend time and pres getting a top-of-the-line LMG and new suit of body armor, they just 'have' it, no matter where they are or what they're doing.
- Armories nearly instantly restore ammo, health, AND armor. How could anyone seriously think that this was a good idea?
- Observatories. Tech 1, completely counters the entire Shade upgrade tree in a huge area through walls around it. Commander can then use pings anywhere on the map, even where he has no power, and see everything he wants. Motion tracking offered as completely free upgrade.
- MACs. Your base got busted up? You don't even need to dedicate marines to defense and repairs. Aliens buy themselves absolutely no time by attacking and not destroying a marine base. Just crank out a few dirt-cheap MACs and free your soldiers from the despair of actually repairing things. Meanwhile, aliens get a cute little guy whose whole job is to hold down M2, and an 'automated unit' that's totally useless and gets stuck behind half the hives you spawn it at.
- Power nodes are almost totally optional. Most marines don't even bother building them unless they REALLY want buildings there. It takes only 12 seconds to build one with a welder, and they're completely free, and they never need replacement, only ever repairs.
- Maps are lit up like a hospital. Even after a power node is destroyed, emergency lighting clicks on that is just as bright, if not brighter than before.
- Power nodes are incredibly strong. So strong, in fact, that I usually see aliens just going for the extractor in the room, because it's not worth wasting time destroying the completely free-to-replace-and-repair power node.
- No need to expand, just grab a few res nodes. Marines can turtle their way through most of their tech tree and still come out strong.
- Phase gates, sprint, recall, and dropping weapons for extra speed completely mitigates any mythical 'speed advantage' that the aliens have. Bonus points for the melee attack with the LMG as well.
- Much more effective HUD and UI, including a minimap.
- Sentries that operate completely independently of power situation, can shoot Fades through blink, have perfect accuracy against everything.
- Commander assists that can be dropped anywhere at any time. Not even limited to rooms that have power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen questions like these many times from new players so I'll answer them here
- ARCs are important. It doesn't matter what tech they are as they are in a good place now. If you played a game and lost to early ARCs then your team was BAD. They are a complete waste of resources unless you need them to break through multiple whip and gorge emplacements. Aliens have a hard time to break through turtles but not a Harder time. It just comes down to alien teams being bad. As in not working together and the commander not knowing what to do. If a marine team turtles, it doesn't matter how much ######e they have a bunch of oni on their power node is a definate gg. You don't even have to do that though. Depending on the map several gorges with bile bombs will wear down a base faster than they can repair it. A commander can spam cysts like crazy as long as you send distractions in and then you get shifted whips in. You can always just camp outside the enemy base and wear them down with crags and shifts. Gorges are more than enough for a siege unit for aliens. If you want to ###### about marine spawns then also ###### about shifts which allow aliens to spawn <b>anywhere on the map</b>. You can even teleport eggs without the shift actually being there!
- Alien upgrades are worth more than marine upgrades. W1 = skulks take 1 less bullet to kill. I'm sure you can compare this to any of the alien upgrades and see what I mean. Weapons are worth resources. This isn't an average fps, it's a strategy game. A 20 res shotgun can kill a 0 res skulk a bit easier, but once the marine is dead, goodbye 20 res. Not to mention if they lose their arms lab and advanced armory, they will lose all of their upgrades unlike aliens and they won't be able to make the protolab or purchase advanced weapons.
- Armouries are worth a lot in important areas, but getting them there is hard. Sure they restock hp and ammo, but marines can die fast even beside an armoury, while aliens regenerate everything. They are also worth the same as 10 ammo or health drops, and the time building it plus the power node. 2 of them are worth a shotgun or an upgrade.
- guess what scans cost resources. Using them early can actually lose you a game, and they definately slow down your macro play. Not to mention Shades cost as much as like 3 scans I think? And they have other abilities.
- MACs are not that useful. First, the robo-bay is not that useful, by the time you get one usually the game is more than halfway over. They can't repair in combat because they stop moving when attacked. Aliens don't even need power nodes, and their structures <b>build themselves</b>. Alien commanders barely ever have to lift a finger or use their microphone. How is that for holding hands? You want to compare that to the drifter? With proper drifter placement you can see the <b>whole map indefinitely</b>, they make your aliens <b>twice as deadly</b> and when they attack they stop marines in their place.
- Power nodes are one of the biggest weaknesses in marine defence and expansion. Do you play this game?
- And aliens can't save up res for bigger aliens or defences themselves? No jetpacks no exos against a ton of fades and oni, do you know why proto lab is so important against those? Do you know what it's like playing a good alien team with full map control? I think not.
- Marines need those advantages. They need those for balance. I'm sure you can ask anyone who was in the alpha what it was like playing without phasegates, and you'll see why it's one of the most important tech paths in the game.
- that's your opinion
- sentries are the biggest reason why most marine teams lose. Simple. You build these before anything else, you lose. They are huge res sinks and the defence they provide is minuscule compared to the cost of going down the robo tech path and getting sentries everywhere. The only real use they have is to support marines and get rid of lower the hp of pesky lerks that like to fly by them. A good commander will build these only after he has built every other building in the game, or the game is already over.
- Welcome to playing a RTS game. You can spam 20 meds on a marine to keep him alive against skulks, but grats you spent that much res to kill aliens that cost 0 res themselves, not to mention missing medpacks or using them and then the marine achieving nothing. You lost the fight essentially by being a dumb commander. I know you hate armouries too, they are infinite support for only 10 res compared to the amount you will spend on giving ammo and health to marines during a push.
the 'marine imba' balance whine is ironic because if anything it's marine which are more difficult to play at higher skill level. just spent about 6 hours watching tournament stream and aliens can leave their 2nd or 3rd hive for dead by attacking the undefended enemy harvesters instead - then come out far ahead. it's far more punishing for marines.
it actually reminds me a lot of SC2... there's not enough data to support an 'imbalance' claim there either, but terran is certainly more difficult in that it's ridiculously hard to recover unless your opponent makes a big mistake. late game protoss or zerg can literally lose their 200/200 army and recover, terran losing their 200/200 army almost always downward spirals into death.
1) Alien mobility. Or lack thereof. We need hive teleportation back. Shifts can somewhat mitigate this, but "making skulks" is no adequate replacement for the ability to quickly move for example gorges around the map. Marines can split and join forces much faster than aliens.
1) Alien upgrades. The way it is now you're locked with your upgrade choice. If I go lerk and the commander gets carapace I will get me carapace. If we get regeneration 3 minutes later I'm still stuck with carapace until I die. We should be able to swap out upgrades. Perhaps only inside a hive room, or for a small res penalty to prevent exploiting the system. Alternatively we could go back to the NS1 system where dropping the upgrade structure unlocks all upgrades of that type at the same time.
1) Alien mobility. Or lack thereof. We need hive teleportation back. Shifts can somewhat mitigate this, but "making skulks" is no adequate replacement for the ability to quickly move for example gorges around the map. Marines can split and join forces much faster than aliens.
1) Alien upgrades. The way it is now you're locked with your upgrade choice. If I go lerk and the commander gets carapace I will get me carapace. If we get regeneration 3 minutes later I'm still stuck with carapace until I die. We should be able to swap out upgrades. Perhaps only inside a hive room, or for a small res penalty to prevent exploiting the system. Alternatively we could go back to the NS1 system where dropping the upgrade structure unlocks all upgrades of that type at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your second point would be nice, but if you plan on getting regeneration then you could just skip carapace and wait for it to research... therefore it's a very minor change.
regarding alien mobility... i'm disappointed that anyone would call for a boring mirror 'distress beacon' ability. aliens are much quicker than marines about the map, and although marines are often unstoppable when they're beating down a hive - that's usually your que to exploit the undefended areas and cause havok on their resources. forcing them to either use distress beacon or take severe losses.
- ARCs are important. It doesn't matter what tech they are as they are in a good place now. If you played a game and lost to early ARCs then your team was BAD. They are a complete waste of resources unless you need them to break through multiple whip and gorge emplacements. <b>Aliens have a hard time to break through turtles but not a Harder time.</b>
- Alien upgrades are worth more than marine upgrades. W1 = skulks take 1 less bullet to kill. I'm sure you can compare this to any of the alien upgrades and see what I mean. Weapons are worth resources. This isn't an average fps, it's a strategy game. A 20 res shotgun can kill a 0 res skulk a bit easier, but once the marine is dead, goodbye 20 res. <b>Not to mention if they lose their arms lab and advanced armory, they will lose all of their upgrades unlike aliens and they won't be able to make the protolab or purchase advanced weapons.</b>
- Armouries are worth a lot in important areas, but getting them there is hard. Sure they restock hp and ammo <i><b>(And Armour)</b></i>, but marines can die fast even beside an armoury, while aliens regenerate everything. They are also worth the same as 10 ammo or health drops, and the time building it plus the power node. 2 of them are worth a shotgun or an upgrade.
- sentries are the <b>biggest reason why most marine teams lose.</b> Simple. You build these before anything else, you lose. They are huge res sinks and the defence they provide is minuscule compared to the cost of going down the robo tech path and getting sentries everywhere. The only real use they have is to support marines and get rid of lower the hp of pesky lerks that like to fly by them. A good commander will build these only after he has built every other building in the game, or the game is already over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as I appreciate the anti troll lets not be too hasty.
Firstly lol... Aliens do have a much harder time breaking turtles than marines...
Armoury blocking + absurd healing rates + recycleable weapons + gls omagurd dmg = Hard to kill.
(The problems here are armor healing armories + gls being borked... Others may argue its also due to all but JP + Exo working with 1 tech point.)
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All upgrades die if you kill the arms lab? Well not really.. they just build another one.
Also, one does not just kill an arms lab.
Priority buildings:
Full base: Power, Marines, CC, Armslab.
Empty base: Obs, Phase, IPs, CC, Armslab.
You cant waltzer into a base and kill the armslab because everything else is MORE important than the armslab.
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Aliens work on hit and run, armouries restoring marines to 100% everything means hit and run doesn't work simple as.
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Sentries... Lol lets talk sentries.
Play veil, find alien hive... rush other 2 hives, drop mines and sentries, wait for phase tech... make arcs... siege last hive.
Who needs weapon upgrades when you have sentries, mines and arcs and they cant get bile bomb?
If they have 1 hive, and you have an armoury, phase gate, 1000 mines and 3 sentries in every other hive, its gee gee.
This is due to bilebomb requiring two hives, not sentries being broken.
I think spit should do building damage (2x dmg to buildings, exos and arcs) or have DOT effect of Bile-bomb but obviously only on those they hit not an area effect.
I love how people say this. These are the same people who will handwave away any kind of marine attack and say "Oh if you just attack their undefended base they'll all bacon and you can kill the exos!" Obviously we're missing the connection here that skulks don't fare too well against sentries...
So what is it, do sentries make you lose or does using bacon make you lose?
I can't count the number of times where 90% of the marines are in one area, so myself and another guy or two decide to attack their "empty" base. Sentries + a lone defender + the commander who leaps out of his chair with a shotgun makes it very hard. Additionally, without bilebombs or an onos, the damage you can do is very limited.
If you are marines attacking a hive, and it's failed, what's the one thing you can do to do the most damage? Use your shotgun (which is insanely overpowered versus structures) and blow away the upgrade buildings. It only takes seconds and sets back the aliens a huge amount of resources.
If you're attacking the marine base, and it's failed, what's the one thing you can do to do the most damage? Let's assume you don't have bilebombs, because bile bombs are in no way analogous to a shotgun. All you have are upgraded skulks and a Fade. What's the ONE thing you can destroy that will do the MOST damage.
The IPs? No, they have many of them. The power node? The attack is already failed, the power node will be repaired for free in seconds. The arms lab? Again, it's easily replaced and is only a temporary inconvenience. The only thing I can think of is the armory, just because you have to upgrade a new one to an advanced armory. Best of luck though, marine structures are quite durable and skulks and fades are highly ineffective at destroying them quickly.
I'm serious about the shotgun vs. structures thing. It's ridiculous.
regarding alien mobility... i'm disappointed that anyone would call for a boring mirror 'distress beacon' ability. aliens are much quicker than marines about the map, and although marines are often unstoppable when they're beating down a hive - that's usually your que to exploit the undefended areas and cause havok on their resources. forcing them to either use distress beacon or take severe losses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not really feasible especially in a pub game where you often have no idea when or if the commander will research a certain upgrade. And even if you do know that there can always be a change of plans for any reason. Playing higher lifeforms without available upgrades for an indefinite amount of time because the commander might get another upgrade any moment now doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
On the second point I want to remind everyone that hive teleport is not the same as distress beacon, nor phase gate. It's limited to hive->hive and perhaps shift->hive teleportation.
On the second point I want to remind everyone that hive teleport is not the same as distress beacon, nor phase gate. It's limited to hive->hive and perhaps shift->hive teleportation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's worked fine for me... i see carapace upgrade available, so i ask the commander to research regeneration. it's also common sense, if you have 3 hives and lots of extractors then you know that upgrades will be available in a few minutes.
i don't like the hive teleport idea mainly because it doesn't suit what i believe to be the intended alien playstyle where you use speed to base trade and destroy staging areas or extractors, instead of 'panic defending' your hive. if you must engage, then you'll want to flank those marines for maximum efficiency. merely teleporting everyone to the hive will likely just get you all killed by grenade spam before you can do anything, then continually get spawn killed for an instalose.
So what is it, do sentries make you lose or does using bacon make you lose?
<b>I can't count the number of times where 90% of the marines are in one area, so myself and another guy or two decide to attack their "empty" base. Sentries + a lone defender + the commander who leaps out of his chair with a shotgun makes it very hard. Additionally, without bilebombs or an onos, the damage you can do is very limited.</b>
If you are marines attacking a hive, and it's failed, what's the one thing you can do to do the most damage? Use your shotgun (which is insanely overpowered versus structures) and blow away the upgrade buildings. It only takes seconds and sets back the aliens a huge amount of resources.
If you're attacking the marine base, and it's failed, what's the one thing you can do to do the most damage? Let's assume you don't have bilebombs, because bile bombs are in no way analogous to a shotgun. All you have are upgraded skulks and a Fade. What's the ONE thing you can destroy that will do the MOST damage.
The IPs? No, they have many of them. The power node? The attack is already failed, the power node will be repaired for free in seconds. The arms lab? Again, it's easily replaced and is only a temporary inconvenience. The only thing I can think of is the armory, just because you have to upgrade a new one to an advanced armory. Best of luck though, marine structures are quite durable and skulks and fades are highly ineffective at destroying them quickly.
I'm serious about the shotgun vs. structures thing. It's ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
90% of the marines are somewhere, and you have sentry + commander + defender in the base you attacked? wtf... 20 v 20 server? i hesitate to ask why you didn't attack the more isolated bases/extractors? did they all have a lone defender as well? 50 v 50 server?
once you take down a phase gate then marines are completely stranded... you're almost free to kill every single extractor they have. when they come back to rebuild the extractors, you should be able to take control of the most key areas of the map.
aliens are boring as ph u ck
this is the truth
I like how abundant and intricate the modular arsenal of the mariners is, but I really dislike how all it's pieces are nothing but additional salt in the wound of the aliens. Either marines get trambled or they kill aliens with relative ease with their gadget of choice.
Marines should be balanced to be paranoid and scared by aliens - they should have a harsher penalty for dying (long spawn times, no infini-reinforcement) so their defensive buildings and gear would play a much greater role in their base being safe, and 5 guys with shotguns should not be a better alternative than mixing dmg and support weapons and bringing an ARC