Can we have longer draw distance and simpler occlusion please?

MagnetoMagneto Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75856Members
I've now got to the point with mapping where performance is becoming an issue, the trouble is adding occlusion geometry is a real hassle for mappers, if it's possible to make it easier by simply boxing in rooms that would be ok, are there any plans to automate it?

There's also the issue of draw distance where things disappear when you're not that far away, i understand the game is close combat but this puts quite a limit on maps and mods.

Comments

  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    The engine can't handle longer draw distances as the number of entities puts too much load on the server process.

    Build you occlusion geometry first... Make the greybox template your occlusion geometry, and build the map inside it. It is much simpler to build the map this way, as otherwise getting the Occlusion Geometry in is a nightmare. Unfortunately, the render around corner design by Max for occlusion didn't work as intended on large rooms, so occlusion geometry is a requirement, which isn't likely to go away without an engine redesign.
  • DarkBlueArtDarkBlueArt Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159584Members
    Hi there,

    <!--quoteo(post=2011056:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:17 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Nov 5 2012, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The engine can't handle longer draw distances as the number of entities puts too much load on the server process.

    Build you occlusion geometry first... Make the greybox template your occlusion geometry, and build the map inside it. It is much simpler to build the map this way, as otherwise getting the Occlusion Geometry in is a nightmare. Unfortunately, the render around corner design by Max for occlusion didn't work as intended on large rooms, so occlusion geometry is a requirement, which isn't likely to go away without an engine redesign.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Wow, another point to consider while building a map. This whole thing get more and more complicated. In fact, I didn't know that it is really neccessary, I considered it just as a plus, if you want use special light effects.

    Okay, so right now the right way to make a map would be:
    1. Raw layout for the right distances and sizes of rooms and hallways
    2. Create the Occlusion Geometry out of it (no textures, no props, etc.)
    3. Build within the Occlusion Geometry the real geometry with textures. I would part the whole map into single rooms onto different layers.
    4. Fill in the props. (again for every room on a seperate layer)
    5. Fill in entities. (again for every room on a seperate layer)

    Are any flaws in it?

    Until now, i had a deeper look on the officical map (seperating the layers e.g.) and saw some tutorials about how to create geometry and add props. But no one told the whole story from planing to the actual building of the map.

    Sry, if this thread now feels hijacked.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2012
    No idea why you guys want to create the OcclusionGeometry before creating the map, I'd say create the map first and just keep an eye on what is visible from some angles (basic vis stuff) and then encase the map in OcclusionGeometry, so you're not tied to the shape of it and can have the freedom to actually create the visuals :)


    Also OcclusionGeometry isn't just a low-poly hollow shell of your map, it actually has to be created with boxes that are placed next to other boxes with their faces. touching each other. These are usually at choke points like doors/hallways/entrances. You can open up any of the released maps to have a look at how it works.

    cheats 1
    r_wireframe true

    Are a must to see if it is working as intended :)
  • MagnetoMagneto Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75856Members
    edited November 2012
    Say you have two boxes touching with a door sized hole, is that enough or does the hole have to have some depth to it joined to the next box?

    |----|----|
    |```````|
    |----|----|

    or...

    |----|_|----|
    |`````````|
    |----|`|----|
  • MagnetoMagneto Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75856Members
    Some stuff like corridors and simple rooms aren't too difficult but it's not much fun having to do it in the first place, i honestly think it shouldn't be the mappers job to add occlusion, it should be handled like in other games with some clever engine code.

    One thing i don't get is why we can't simply select our wall geometry and add it to the occlusion group while keeping it visible itself, this would completely remove the need for extra occlusion geometry is most situations, it should really be an option, i mean why create extra geometry when we already have walls, it doesn't make sense?
  • TigTig Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71674Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    I'm gonna argue against kouji here. Unless you know what to expect, build your occlusion geometry first. it will help you think in terms of performance. i'm going through my occlusion on skyfalls now, and its taking forever and is very complicated due to the fact that my rooms all border eachother with very little space in between. i'm talking like 10 units. i'm not going back to change that now after 3 years on this map.

    occlusion didnt even exist then. but now that it does (yay), i would highly recommend that people start with spaced out rooms and do their occlusion geometry first.
  • DarkBlueArtDarkBlueArt Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159584Members
    Well, okay, so we have two opinions on how to do the occlusion geometry best...

    Great, now I am really confused.
    But the thing bothering me is... The occlusion geometry should be pretty close to the real one, if I didn't misunderstand something...
    But how I would know, how my real geometry looks like, if I haven't done it before. And noone can call himself to be such a precise planner, that he already knows every dimension and every corner of every room to get the occlusion geometry done properly. So later adjustment will be unavoidable. Why not make the occlusion geometry at the bitter end of map making?

    just some noobish thoughts... =D
  • DghelneshiDghelneshi Aims to surpass Fana in post edits. Join Date: 2011-11-01 Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    You aren't supposed to duplicate your detailed geometry. Occlusion geometry needs to be as simple as possible for performance reasons, which is actually why it's there in the first place. You could just use all geometry for occlusion if it wasn't so damn performance hungry. Make a box around your room and be done with it (pretty much).
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    The occlusion geometry contains the map, as said, there needs to be a map first before you contain it. If you want to place occlusion early on, you can create simple connected boxes around the rooms and corridors of your map.

    The occlusion is basically a visibility blocker for the engine. The closer it is to the map, the easier it is for the engine to define what you can see from each point. The more planes you have for occlusion, the harder it is for the engine to define what can be seen and what cannot. You have to achieve a balance between simple geometry for occlusion and making sure you block the view accordingly so the engine doesn't render what it doesn't need to from each point one can be in the map.

    The advantage of having it made by the mapper is living intelligence. Computers do not know simplicity and if managed by an algorithm, it takes many cycles for it to achieve the same result, something the engine can't spare at the moment.
  • TigTig Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71674Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    <!--quoteo(post=2017695:date=Nov 9 2012, 07:10 PM:name=DarkBlueArt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkBlueArt @ Nov 9 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, okay, so we have two opinions on how to do the occlusion geometry best...

    Great, now I am really confused.
    But the thing bothering me is... The occlusion geometry should be pretty close to the real one, if I didn't misunderstand something...
    But how I would know, how my real geometry looks like, if I haven't done it before. And noone can call himself to be such a precise planner, that he already knows every dimension and every corner of every room to get the occlusion geometry done properly. So later adjustment will be unavoidable. Why not make the occlusion geometry at the bitter end of map making?

    just some noobish thoughts... =D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    you can do it at the end as most of us have. you're just going to have a lot of "i wish i had done ____ instead" moments. i guess that's learning.
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