<!--quoteo(post=2005811:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:06 AM:name=MinstrelJCF)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MinstrelJCF @ Nov 2 2012, 04:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine with shotgun outclasses everything but onos even with 3 hive upgrades and full abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if the player is aimbotting, you're correct. thankfully, human error means shotgun does not beat everything but onos.
i'd like to see a shotgun marine take out a lurk or fade doing a hit n run. hell... shotgun marine has no range and can be chipped away by gorge or lurk for free. seriously, a good shotgun marine should rarely lose to skulks, but to effectively kill anything else you'd really need beast aim and luck as well.
look at sniper in tf2. headshots outclass everything on the other team, even overhealed players. but even world class snipers only hit headshots about 30-40% against good players, and with communication you can mostly avoid the sniper entirely and make him ineffective.
<!--quoteo(post=2008030:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:29 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 3 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if the player is aimbotting, you're correct. thankfully, human error means shotgun does not beat everything but onos.
i'd like to see a shotgun marine take out a lurk or fade doing a hit n run. hell... shotgun marine has no range and can be chipped away by gorge or lurk for free. seriously, a good shotgun marine should rarely lose to skulks, but to effectively kill anything else you'd really need beast aim and luck as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If a shotgun marine can't feed a Fade a point-blank faceful of buckshot in the several LONG seconds it takes for a fade to chip away at an A2 / A3 marine, then that marine is a failure. Swipe is what - 1.5 swipes a second? It takes at least 4 solid hits to kill an upgraded marine? That's nearly 5 seconds for a Fade to kill a single marine. The marine can empty his shotgun in that time.
"Hitting and running" a marine but not killing him is useless.
The TTKs for aliens against marines are eternally long, and the TTKs for marines against aliens are painfully short. With W2 / W3, even with carapace, skulk durability is measured in milliseconds.
<!--quoteo(post=2008034:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:32 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a shotgun marine can't feed a Fade a point-blank faceful of buckshot in the several LONG seconds it takes for a fade to chip away at an A2 / A3 marine, then that marine is a failure. Swipe is what - 1.5 swipes a second? It takes at least 4 solid hits to kill an upgraded marine? That's nearly 5 seconds for a Fade to kill a single marine. The marine can empty his shotgun in that time.
"Hitting and running" a marine but not killing him is useless.
The TTKs for aliens against marines are eternally long, and the TTKs for marines against aliens are painfully short. With W2 / W3, even with carapace, skulk durability is measured in milliseconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you don't get 'stuck in' as a fade, you can always blink out of there. no need to throw your 50 res away just because you're too stubborn to retreat.
if you stay alive, that marine can't do anything else - because he knows as soon as he turns his back the fade could return. a marine standing around like that = as good as a dead marine.
i don't understand why hit n run's are useless. this is a team game, not a 1v1 game. if you hit a marine twice and retreat to regen, then a lerk goes through and gets a poison bite then retreat to regen, then you go back in and finish off the marine who has no hp. the only situation where hit n run becomes less effective is when there's an armory nearby, and if your team allows the marines establish a forward base with armory then it's your mistake.
sure their commander can drop medpacks etc, but the res cost adds up - and he can't simultaneously drop medkits in multiple locations, so if your marines are getting healed up, chances are your allies on the other side of the map are ripping marines apart.
that's how i see it anyway... what exactly makes hit n run 'useless'?
<!--quoteo(post=2008039:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:46 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 3 2012, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you don't get 'stuck in' as a fade, you can always blink out of there. no need to throw your 50 res away just because you're too stubborn to retreat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can still be blasted in your little cloud. The shotgun isn't exactly a sawed-off as far as accuracy is concerned.
<!--quoteo(post=2006091:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:36 PM:name=azurescorch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azurescorch @ Nov 2 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->New hives do not need a cyst chain linked to them ;) So you can drop pretty much as soon as the game starts (not that you should, the team should find out where the marine base is first).
What I do is link a new harvester up, by which time the team would of found the enemy base. I then drop a new hive at the most suitable location. Now there will be little resources to do anything with, so I jump out, go to the new hive, evolve to a gorge, and start breathing my smelly healing breath on it to speed up its growth. By the time its done I'll have enough res to link up a new RT and maybe research something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It literally takes two seconds for the commander to find out where their base is by just checking the spawns to hear them working and moving.
also how many upgrades to aliens get at 1 hive compared to marines at 1 cc. That alone is enough to know that something is wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2008030:date=Nov 3 2012, 04:29 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 3 2012, 04:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if the player is aimbotting, you're correct. thankfully, human error means shotgun does not beat everything but onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this would be a compelling argument, except that the shotgun doesn't behave consistently - the spread randomly collects the pellets in corners of crosshair. it's quite silly that a fade can blink in, and a marine can perform the exact same shot twice, but randomness dictates the difference between -17 and -220 damage. :/
fortunately for marines it's usually on the side of randomly strong but it's still impossible to gather consistent data on the nature of how strong it is due to this reason.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'd like to see a shotgun marine take out a lurk or fade doing a hit n run. hell... shotgun marine has no range and can be chipped away by gorge or lurk for free. seriously, a good shotgun marine should rarely lose to skulks, but to effectively kill anything else you'd really need beast aim and luck as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> watch any competitive game. happens all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=2008046:date=Nov 3 2012, 11:53 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 3 2012, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It literally takes two seconds for the commander to find out where their base is by just checking the spawns to hear them working and moving.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep. But pretty sure it's regarded as a bug. Also pretty sure it hasn't been easy to resolve.
<!--quoteo(post=2008046:date=Nov 3 2012, 11:53 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 3 2012, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also how many upgrades to aliens get at 1 hive compared to marines at 1 cc. That alone is enough to know that something is wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How many oranges in this bag of apples? Oh deary me. that's clearly too many oranges.
Comments
if the player is aimbotting, you're correct. thankfully, human error means shotgun does not beat everything but onos.
i'd like to see a shotgun marine take out a lurk or fade doing a hit n run. hell... shotgun marine has no range and can be chipped away by gorge or lurk for free. seriously, a good shotgun marine should rarely lose to skulks, but to effectively kill anything else you'd really need beast aim and luck as well.
look at sniper in tf2. headshots outclass everything on the other team, even overhealed players. but even world class snipers only hit headshots about 30-40% against good players, and with communication you can mostly avoid the sniper entirely and make him ineffective.
i'd like to see a shotgun marine take out a lurk or fade doing a hit n run. hell... shotgun marine has no range and can be chipped away by gorge or lurk for free. seriously, a good shotgun marine should rarely lose to skulks, but to effectively kill anything else you'd really need beast aim and luck as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a shotgun marine can't feed a Fade a point-blank faceful of buckshot in the several LONG seconds it takes for a fade to chip away at an A2 / A3 marine, then that marine is a failure. Swipe is what - 1.5 swipes a second? It takes at least 4 solid hits to kill an upgraded marine? That's nearly 5 seconds for a Fade to kill a single marine. The marine can empty his shotgun in that time.
"Hitting and running" a marine but not killing him is useless.
The TTKs for aliens against marines are eternally long, and the TTKs for marines against aliens are painfully short. With W2 / W3, even with carapace, skulk durability is measured in milliseconds.
"Hitting and running" a marine but not killing him is useless.
The TTKs for aliens against marines are eternally long, and the TTKs for marines against aliens are painfully short. With W2 / W3, even with carapace, skulk durability is measured in milliseconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you don't get 'stuck in' as a fade, you can always blink out of there. no need to throw your 50 res away just because you're too stubborn to retreat.
if you stay alive, that marine can't do anything else - because he knows as soon as he turns his back the fade could return. a marine standing around like that = as good as a dead marine.
i don't understand why hit n run's are useless. this is a team game, not a 1v1 game. if you hit a marine twice and retreat to regen, then a lerk goes through and gets a poison bite then retreat to regen, then you go back in and finish off the marine who has no hp. the only situation where hit n run becomes less effective is when there's an armory nearby, and if your team allows the marines establish a forward base with armory then it's your mistake.
sure their commander can drop medpacks etc, but the res cost adds up - and he can't simultaneously drop medkits in multiple locations, so if your marines are getting healed up, chances are your allies on the other side of the map are ripping marines apart.
that's how i see it anyway... what exactly makes hit n run 'useless'?
You can still be blasted in your little cloud. The shotgun isn't exactly a sawed-off as far as accuracy is concerned.
What I do is link a new harvester up, by which time the team would of found the enemy base. I then drop a new hive at the most suitable location. Now there will be little resources to do anything with, so I jump out, go to the new hive, evolve to a gorge, and start breathing my smelly healing breath on it to speed up its growth. By the time its done I'll have enough res to link up a new RT and maybe research something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It literally takes two seconds for the commander to find out where their base is by just checking the spawns to hear them working and moving.
also how many upgrades to aliens get at 1 hive compared to marines at 1 cc. That alone is enough to know that something is wrong.
this would be a compelling argument, except that the shotgun doesn't behave consistently - the spread randomly collects the pellets in corners of crosshair. it's quite silly that a fade can blink in, and a marine can perform the exact same shot twice, but randomness dictates the difference between -17 and -220 damage. :/
fortunately for marines it's usually on the side of randomly strong but it's still impossible to gather consistent data on the nature of how strong it is due to this reason.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'd like to see a shotgun marine take out a lurk or fade doing a hit n run. hell... shotgun marine has no range and can be chipped away by gorge or lurk for free. seriously, a good shotgun marine should rarely lose to skulks, but to effectively kill anything else you'd really need beast aim and luck as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
watch any competitive game. happens all the time.
Yep. But pretty sure it's regarded as a bug. Also pretty sure it hasn't been easy to resolve.
<!--quoteo(post=2008046:date=Nov 3 2012, 11:53 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 3 2012, 11:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also how many upgrades to aliens get at 1 hive compared to marines at 1 cc. That alone is enough to know that something is wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many oranges in this bag of apples? Oh deary me. that's clearly too many oranges.