How to win 90% of your games on Refinery as Marines

MaximumSquid · November 2012

Refinery is HUGE. . .
Aliens often go shift hive, celerity, and have a forward egg nest
Also very likely is that Aliens will have a large and early Lerk presence on the map

Exploit all of it!
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=122316&st=0" target="_blank">Rush Robotics Bay</a> and Push with Sentries!

<u><b>Step1:</u> <i>Take Lava Falls. . .</i></b>

Taking Lava Falls and holding it will net you a resource advantage for the rest of the game <i>(First step on the road to victory in any map)</i>

Start off telling 1 or 2 marines to go to Transit and have everyone else to go to Lava Falls
<i>(For more organized teams you can have a few walk to lava from Pipeworks to flank and to ensure that a skulk rush isn't coming from that way)</i>

Immediately drop the robotics bay blocking the power and ask 1 person to build it if nobody sees it:

<img src="http://i45.tinypic.com/2ag9m5g.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Once you're there <u>drop the sentry battery on the center of the "X"</u> in the picture below:

<img src="http://i49.tinypic.com/1hz6t3.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

From there the sentry locations are very specific:
<b>Sentry1:</b> covering containment, the back of the battery, and partially the back of Sentry3
<b>Sentry2:</b> slightly away from the edge <u>so skulks can't bite it through the wall</u>, but also <u>so skulks cannot drop down behind it</u>
<b>Sentry3:</b> tight to the left wall with a wide cover

What you can't see as comm:

<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/2qiz980.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

There are girders in that room that provide natural cover!
The sentry battery has it's back against one making it impossible for skulks to get on it without getting shot
Sentries 2 & 3 also have one between them it that much harder to shoot from a distance

As mentioned if you do it wrong this can happen:

<img src="http://i49.tinypic.com/2rzqiwj.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Skulks biting the leg of a sentry right threw the wall. . .

<u><b>Step2:</u> <i>Sever the Cyst Chain. . .</i></b>

Now that you have a res advantage apply even more pressure to the aliens by creating a negative res flow for aliens
<i>(Tactic <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=122948&st=0" target="_blank">commonly seen on Docking when Aliens spawn in Departure</a>. . . Formerly "Tram" )</i>

Once things cooldown in Lava Falls have 2 marines stay behind to guard it while everyone else pushes to the right into Chasm
<i>(your smaller team should be building up the lower half of the map. . . remind them that you haven't forgotten about them if res is low)</i>

There is almost never anyone there making setting up the next sentry nest very easy:

<img src="http://i50.tinypic.com/2eef0o2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

The cyst chain will very, but there is almost always a void in the corner <i>(anything above the green line is fair game)</i>

Best case scenario this is what you'll build:

<img src="http://i45.tinypic.com/2q82eqw.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Normally "Battery in the Corner" is an automatic failure, but due to the rooms unique shape we can get away with it just this once!

Sentries kill cysts so <u>the chain will be permanently severed</u> as long as those sentries are up

<u><b>Step3:</u> <i>The Final Push!</i></b>

Scoop the alien's extractor in Chasm and when the tech advantage is large enough tell everyone to make the final push

You should have a 2nd chair or phase tech by now, but if you don't it's not too concerning

Setup the 3rd and final sentry nest:

<img src="http://i45.tinypic.com/o5s3f4.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

There is often a void in the cyst chain in the bottom corner of Containment
Once you have this it's pretty much "GG" as your team will be able to fall back to multiple fronts all guarded by other sentry nests should things go badly

Not to mention holding lava falls and transit should give you an early node advantage

<i>Usually things just get better from there</i>

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MisterYoon · November 2012

Good, reasonable. But plz don't let rookie marines spam sentries like champions. They are already champions of spamming turrets... Telling them 'Communication and Teamplay' is important might be better.

supsu · November 2012

I have even better one that works 100% of the time: Run to the hive and kill them all. It takes 20seconds to run there. The map is way too small and the layout is blah.

RMJ · November 2012

Hopefully they are nerfing sentries soon, the spam is getting a joke. they are way way to good. and shouldn even be possible to be placed so close to each other.

Wheeee · November 2012

if you spend all your res spamming turrets the aliens will 1-shot you with bilebomb counter.

Runteh · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RMJ @ Nov 1 2012, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Hopefully they are nerfing sentries soon, the spam is getting a joke. they are way way to good. and shouldn even be possible to be placed so close to each other.</div>

What?! Sentries are terrible. I haven't gone down to one once. I think they are spot on for pubs.

MaximumSquid · November 2012

<u><b>Wheeee:</b></u>

Aliens don't have time to get Bile Bomb and <u>even when they do it's very difficult to take pot shots at Lava Falls while 2 Marines are guarding it</u>

Now add welders to that mix. . .
You don't run out of res because you skip the early phase tech

The only counter to this strat is an all-in skulk rush which can be spotted if you have marines scout Pipeworks before flanking into Lava Falls
<i>(as already mentioned in the post)</i>

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Edits:
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Maybe I'll underline it for you?

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Wheeee · November 2012

aliens are bad if they don't spot the early robo.
fast hive means that bilebombs should be out around the same time your sentries are going up (provided that aliens aren't derpy-derping)

there's not really much potential in the metagame for early robo to be a fake-out maneuver either, since gorges counter everything the robo fac produces.

elodea · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (supsu @ Nov 2 2012, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I have even better one that works 100% of the time: Run to the hive and kill them all. It takes 20seconds to run there. The map is way too small and the layout is blah.</div>
Pretty much this.

<b>How to win on refinery as marines?</b>
<i>Play refinery as marines.</i>

ScardyBob · November 2012

There's no spam like sentry spam :)

Xarius · November 2012

Let me just point out some of the flaws in your strategy. (The biggest really is that your entire strat is already based on aliens losing the early game, which is almost always a GG on any map anyway)

- Aliens losing lava falls. Seriously? Aliens have a huge advantage over marines in getting the double res, heck, it's practically just outside their hive, not holding it SHOULD pretty much result in them losing the game.

- Aliens not getting a second hive as soon as possible (you'd want this regardless of bilebomb anyway since aliens are pretty ###### at T1) with bilebomb to deal with the sentries EASILY. Gorges have no trouble wrecking any sentry farm in any room, on any map.

I've played A LOT of games since sentries made a comeback and I can safely say that rushing sentries over PG is almost always a bad idea, unless you have a better team to begin with. I always laugh when I see a marine commander putting down sentries everywhere, usually a single skulk can deal with them if they're unsupported. And even if they're supported, bilebomb absolutely DESTROYS them. (from massive range) I reckon you could even use lerk spikes or gorge spit actually. (They're not that tanky and you outrange them)

Sentries can be good to help hold some ground or delay an alien attack, or support a marine push, but they will never NEVER win you games if the opposing team isn't entirely clueless. (On the contrary, RF over PG early on is a sure way to run into trouble)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I have even better one that works 100% of the time: Run to the hive and kill them all. It takes 20seconds to run there. The map is way too small and the layout is blah.</div> This indeed, and it works on most maps tbh! Run into hive, kill eggs, camp eggs, win game. GG next.

SixtyWattMan · November 2012

No mention of Lerks? Lerks dominate Lava Falls. Once Aliens get one or two decent Lerks you can kiss Lava Falls goodbye for the remainder of the game. Marines should do nothing more in Lava Falls than make sure Aliens aren't capping the RTs. Put your Phase Gates somewhere useful.

Mouse · November 2012

I've found that perched lerks, sitting out of range, are a good early counter to unguarded sentries.

elodea · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 2 2012, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>- Aliens losing lava falls. Seriously? Aliens have a huge advantage over marines in getting the double res, heck, it's practically just outside their hive, not holding it SHOULD pretty much result in them losing the game.</div>
Theres no way you can be saying aliens dominate long, straight, corridors, especially with the two res nodes on the MARINE SIDE of the little wall. That besides, not holding a double res node should not automatically mean losing the game.

Also, all that lava everywhere is a disadvantage to skulk play and an advantage to marine play. That there are lava death triggers up near the roof is mind boggling.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 2 2012, 10:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>No mention of Lerks? Lerks dominate Lava Falls.</div>
Sure lerks will dominate lavafalls... if marines can't aim. 2 lerks (lets ignore the big flaw that they come out later in the game) vs 8 lmg marines? But then again, you'll always dominate a marine team that can't aim.

Codeine · November 2012

Its rare to find someone playing marine that can't aim, since the last 10 years of FPS games has been helpful to that.

fanatic · November 2012

Refinery is a bad map. It looks great, but it plays equally terrible. If you can win as marines on refinery with this awful strategy, you can win as marines on refinery with just about any strategy.

There, I said it.

SixtyWattMan · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 1 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Theres no way you can be saying aliens dominate long, straight, corridors, especially with the two res nodes on the MARINE SIDE of the little wall. That besides, not holding a double res node should not automatically mean losing the game.

Also, all that lava everywhere is a disadvantage to skulk play and an advantage to marine play. That there are lava death triggers up near the roof is mind boggling.

Sure lerks will dominate lavafalls... if marines can't aim. 2 lerks (lets ignore the big flaw that they come out later in the game) vs 8 lmg marines? But then again, you'll always dominate a marine team that can't aim.</div>

Lerks don't come out late, they cost 30res. And are we to just assume marines will have 100% accuracy and marines will win anyway? I'm not claiming refinery is a good map, I'm just saying that holding Lava Fall is a bad strategy.

Xarius · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Theres no way you can be saying aliens dominate long, straight, corridors, especially with the two res nodes on the MARINE SIDE of the little wall. That besides, not holding a double res node should not automatically mean losing the game.</div>

Uh? Last time I checked the res nodes are on the side of the wall closest to the alien starting hive. Unless the marine and alien positions sometimes switch? AFAIK aliens always start in Containment, and the double res node is way closer to aliens and NOT facing the long pathway from the marine side. There's a wall there shielding the extractors and it's easy for gorges to add some clogs and put hydras there to lock it down.

MaximumSquid · November 2012

<u><b>SixtyWattMan:</b></u>

Lerks are mentioned on the 3rd line in the post. . .

I've done a lot of editing to the first post though so missing it possibly not your fault

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<u><b>Xarius:</b></u>

I had about a page written of the different tactics I've seen at Lava Falls from both sides to help explain, but I'm cutting it

Bottom line is that if Marines don't own Lava Falls it's super easy for them to retake. . .
The flank from Pipeworks puts them way over the top to dominate that room and once you have it it's super easy to hold with sentry support

And I've had zero trouble battling fast hive <i>(aka the slow-roll alien strat)</i>

If you're keeping up the only thing I've lost to is an all-in skulk rush and that's because there's no observatory available to distress beacon with

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<u><b>Mouse</b></u>

The sentries have mad cover. . .

Maybe there's some angle to hit them from, but standing still as a Lerk usually means death when you get spotted

I've only ever seen the one in front go down and I just rebuild it
Other 2 always stay up now that I know about the wall bug

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For anyone doubting it further I'm going to request you put in the time to test it out a few times
I've commanded it with and against a wide range of skill

<b>It's been well tested</b>

<i>Consider the goods delivered</i>

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Volcano · November 2012

join marines and win, the map is poorly designed for the aliens

Mouse · November 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Nov 2 2012, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><u><b>Mouse</b></u>

The sentries have mad cover. . .

Maybe there's some angle to hit them from, but standing still as a Lerk usually means death when you get spotted

I've only ever seen the one in front go down and I just rebuild it
Other 2 always stay up now that I know about the wall bug</div>

AFAIK, spikes have a greater range than sentries do.
Load up a map on your own and and put some sentries at the end of a long hallway with the sentry battery out in the open between them. Switch teams, go lerk and get down the other end of the hallway. See how far away you can spike the sentry battery from and see how close you have to get before the sentries start shooting at you.

[EDIT] A regular tactic of mine as lerk over the past few days has been to perch on a wall or ceiling, somewhere where I can see the sentry battery. From there, I spike snipe the battery until it goes down. Sometimes I do this on my own, but it works a bit better when there are other aliens nearby to distract the sentries and any nearby marines.

Lofung · November 2012

NS basics: if you could win by spamming turrets early in game you could win playing with a trackball instead of a mouse under your feet. same in ns2.

Virsoul · November 2012

If you're winning with this strategy it's probably because most of the player base is new. I challenge you to try this in as little as a month and I bet it hardly ever works. Early turrets are always a bad idea and stunt your tech. You're doing the aliens a favor.

MaximumSquid · November 2012

<u><b>Virsoul:</b></u>

Fair enough, but it might worth mentioning that I've been dropping robotics first as comm since the change to sentries and haven't looked back

I can't imagine that all those beta games had bad people in it so it's far more likely that when the average player skill catches up it won't be anything new to see

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<u><b>Lofung:</b></u>

Sentries are easy to transition out of, but so far <u>I haven't had the need to do this on Refinery</u>

That is significant. . .

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<u><b>Mouse:</b></u>

Sounds like you have everything you need to test a counter strategy against it then

<i>Let me know how it goes</i>

How to win 90% of your games on Refinery as Marines

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