Please oh please can grenade whack work again?
serpico
Join Date: 2012-02-12 Member: 145150Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-02-12 Member: 145150Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">it used to!</div>The other day I was khamming on summit and trying to defend a base in sub from a couple of GL rines. No JP's. We had plenty of resources. I watched with a certain amount of horror as they knocked down mature whip after mature whip with grenades. In older builds, this was practically impossible, but in this one I actually watched four whips go down at once to grenade fire from two or three marines on the comp lab side just lobbing them down the hall.
It's kinda like being a marine and trying to fight against bile bomb if bile bomb also insta-killed vanilla marines, and was sometimes thrown by lerks as well as gorges.
Any <b><u>one</u></b> of the following changes would be absolutely fantastic and make the game way more fun IMO:
1.) fix whip whack to the point where nading a whip is more likely to result in your death than the whip's (like it used to be)
2.) nerf GL damage vs players
3.) make nades not detonate when in proximity to friendly marines (nanites!)
Game is shaping up beautifully, UWE, and I can't wait to see the new look for infestation in game.
Exo, JP, Arcs and even shotguns all seem manageable to me, but tweak the GL win button plz, thx. <3
It's kinda like being a marine and trying to fight against bile bomb if bile bomb also insta-killed vanilla marines, and was sometimes thrown by lerks as well as gorges.
Any <b><u>one</u></b> of the following changes would be absolutely fantastic and make the game way more fun IMO:
1.) fix whip whack to the point where nading a whip is more likely to result in your death than the whip's (like it used to be)
2.) nerf GL damage vs players
3.) make nades not detonate when in proximity to friendly marines (nanites!)
Game is shaping up beautifully, UWE, and I can't wait to see the new look for infestation in game.
Exo, JP, Arcs and even shotguns all seem manageable to me, but tweak the GL win button plz, thx. <3
Comments
<u><b>1.) Whips don't bat grenades that roll in on the floor.</b></u> Killing a room full of whips with a GL is as easy as aiming a bit lower. You don't even have to get clever with banking shots or taking cover. Just march right up, aim down, and slaughter. Works consistently, and is very easy to do.
<u><b>2.) Whips often bat grenades into a nearby wall or structure such that they come right back.</b></u> I think this is the reason for that:
IIRC, UWE announced in some one of the changelogs awhile back that whips would now bat grenade "away from friendly structures" instead of "back at the marine who fired it." I think this was when whips became terrible at batting grenades.
If I were to venture a guess, I would say "away from friendly structure" means they calculate which trajectory is the most "away" from friendly structures mathematically. That's not actually very useful though, because half the time that just causes them to bank into a wall or ceiling and come right back. Furthermore, <u><b>your best bet for getting a grenade away from friendly structures is batting right back where it came from</b></u> like whips used to because you can be assured there are no walls or structures in the way.
Please revert, or at least make whips whack rolling grenades and aim away from floor and ceiling as well as friendly structures.
In the game's current state, the only hard counter to one of the most devastating weapons is just plain broken.
Whats the point in spamming whips if a single grenade marine can kill them all?!
Most times the whip doesn't hit the grenade at all even though it makes a swing for it, and then when it does it often hits it at friendlies.
Whips should just absorb the grenade damage on themselves for a reduced hit and no splash damage. Won't be fixed by 1.0 though.
<!--quoteo(post=1999508:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:22 AM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Oct 29 2012, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IIRC, UWE announced in some one of the changelogs awhile back that whips would now bat grenade "away from friendly structures" instead of "back at the marine who fired it." I think this was when whips became terrible at batting grenades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was build 210, when I started playing, so I can't comment on if that's what made them worse. Then 217 made them only deflect grenades when they're mature (why??), though I'm not sure if that part is still in.
The best solution is to have it so the whips hit and explode the grenades, with them still causing damage but further away from the whip. Thus reduced damage to the whip.
Also have auto-root when they stop after a few seconds (with a near instant pack up time for moving) and increase the damage a little. People get past too easily, and once you are through a doorway you can just lmg them easily.
I also think that'd be a good and fast solution. It would also make more sence.
This
It worked fine, and you could still shoot the whips, at least this way the entire team couldn't just go GLs and expect it to work out alright if there were multiple whips in a hive. I really don't see why they took this out, the current implementation is pointless, they usually end up damaging themselves or other structures and they barely catch any grenades.
Your analogy of the GL problem was both funny, and horrifying at the same time.
What IF Gorge Bile Bombs, or Lerk Spores, were AoE-instakilling attacks that were spammable like grenades? That alone would pretty much blow up an entire marine base while killing anything coming out of phase gates, or infantry portals.
And people somehow still believe grenade launchers are fine. Other than an Onos, I see no counter to a cluster of GLs, except maybe a temp. clog wall.
Whips should be the answer to GLs. ARCs should be the answer to whips. Shade ink should be the answer to ARCs. LMG should than be the answer to whips covered by shades.
Also, having whips smash grenades back in the face of the shooter was an absolute valid and NOT unfair way to say: "No, Mr. Marine! Not at the whip with your GL!" I want this back.
I can definitely agree with this, although to be fair grenades not detonating when near a friendly target means you just nerfed GL into uselessness. I think a reduction in player damage (Both Marine and Alien) and leaving it the same for structures would be wonderful. Rolling grenades into whips should still damage the whip, while shooting directly at them should result in a grenade back into the marines teeth for increased damage vs. the marine who fired it (encouragement to not do that again). I like skill being a determining factor, and currently the GL is an 'I win' button unless you run off solo-style and wander into the entire alien team. I'm not saying one GL trooper will win the game, but as a defense/offense support troop it is the best in the game until you get heavies IMO. If Bile Bomb is tied to hives, GL should be tied to CC's QED.
God forbid marines have to mix up their weapon compositions and actually overcome 'counters', heck we may actually see me Flamethrowers and ARCs as a result of this, it'd make for much more interesting gameplay.
Whips should just absorb the grenade damage on themselves for a reduced hit and no splash damage. Won't be fixed by 1.0 though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should have said the intent was to knock them away from friendlies, though they still have many bugs that make them functionally useless. The 'eating grenades' change would work too, but that seems less intuitive for a giant tentacle called a whip. If I were a new player I'd expect the whip to whip things, not eat them.
I feel that the out of the 4 grenades fired from a gl, a single whip should be able to knock back 2.
This would mean a single whip would not hard counter a gl, but seriously negate the effect of a single GL. 2 whips (30 tres investment) would be able to hold back the majority of a gl attack.
Yep, I remember a "Ness" in that server. I think my khamming got pretty terrible after Sub went down. Watching you guys roll it so easily kind of crushed my morale. :P
Also, the fact that you play 95% alien explains why you were obliterating everyone as an alien but I was able to take you down fairly often as a marine, hah.
<!--quoteo(post=1999633:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:26 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 29 2012, 05:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hitting them back at marines is OP, and I don't think there is any good way to make it so they are hit away but not into other alien structures.
The best solution is to have it so the whips hit and explode the grenades, with them still causing damage but further away from the whip. Thus reduced damage to the whip.
Also have auto-root when they stop after a few seconds (with a near instant pack up time for moving) and increase the damage a little. People get past too easily, and once you are through a doorway you can just lmg them easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure about all of these personally but huge +1 to the auto-root after a few seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=1999747:date=Oct 29 2012, 08:32 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Oct 29 2012, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whips should be the answer to GLs. ARCs should be the answer to whips. Shade ink should be the answer to ARCs. LMG should than be the answer to whips covered by shades.
Also, having whips smash grenades back in the face of the shooter was an absolute valid and NOT unfair way to say: "No, Mr. Marine! Not at the whip with your GL!" I want this back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen. Well said. An exo with a diligent welder is also a pretty viable counter to whips as long as he can stay out of melee range IMO.
<!--coloro:#20FF00--><span style="color:#20FF00"><!--/coloro-->Grenades exploding near Marines should deal significant reduced damage (to Kharaa and marines firing the grenade).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Then Whips could regain their licenses to return grenades to their senders.
But even then, aliens still need a new weapon to deal with grenade spam in the last Marine fortress.
<!--coloro:#20FF00--><span style="color:#20FF00"><!--/coloro-->Grenades exploding near Marines should deal significant reduced damage (to Kharaa and marines firing the grenade).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Then Whips could regain their licenses to return grenades to their senders.
But even then, aliens still need a new weapon to deal with grenade spam in the last Marine fortress.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it would be helpful even with the last marine fortress because if a skulk could manage to leap past the defensive grenade wall, they would catch all the GL wielders with their pants down because they'd be holding a weapon that's highly ineffective at close range. Marines would lose their famous ability to de-skulk their buddy's face with a nade, which has been complained about for ages.
Also, not everyone cares about mechanics making sense in the mythology, but personally, I like that it's easily justified by grenades intelligently detonating only when it's safe for friendlies.
If marines were not all stupid and all 5 of them cluster at the entrance in the bid to quickly down a hive, but instead slowly down it. Even fades have a hard time killing GLs. if this formation where held.
The thing about GL or marine upgrades now is the scaling of it is magnificent. One GL is ok-ok but 4 together in this formation is a mega pain.
As you can imagine having 6 GLs like this makes having 6 more shulks/alien players much less relevant
I firmly believe that the mechanics need to be scaled TWICE for NS2
1) for Scrims/Clan wars (6v6)
2) for Pub (12v12)
E = Entrance
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HIVE E 3 GL firing into Hive (A) |
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____________________| 3 GL covering (A) |
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PG ARMORY SENTRIES |
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Profit.