How Could Aliens Win This Match ?

TimmahIsASaintTimmahIsASaint Join Date: 2012-09-24 Member: 160678Members
edited October 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
Its a really great match by both sides, I feel like Aliens crushed them in the early game nearly doubling marines lost resources but at about 15 minutes marines are ahead 600 resources and aliens are forced to defend double if they want any resources. I don't understand how aliens with essentially 3 upgrades are supposed to combat marines who have 3 armor 3 weapons and almost every upgrade... I mean what could they do ?

Its the first match. Bout 25 mins and really fun to watch :D
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/336738110" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/336738110</a>

Oh yeah and in the second match aliens lose in 5 mins cause they lost second hive and someone says "Never play ######liens >:(" I lold.

Comments

  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    NS is a game of resource and map control, it's not supposed to be balanced after one team has already established a huge lead in both.
  • MisterYoonMisterYoon Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155747Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1998671:date=Oct 27 2012, 01:55 PM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Oct 27 2012, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its a really great match by both sides, I feel like Aliens crushed them in the early game nearly doubling marines lost resources but at about 15 minutes marines are ahead 600 resources and aliens are forced to defend double if they want any resources. I don't understand how aliens with essentially 3 upgrades are supposed to combat marines who have 3 armor 3 weapons and almost every upgrade... I mean what could they do ?

    Its the first match. Bout 25 mins and really fun to watch :D
    <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/336738110" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/336738110</a>

    Oh yeah and in the second match aliens lose in 5 mins cause they lost second hive and someone says "Never play ######liens >:(" I lold.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's Archaea.. they won recently at least 4 official(casted by blindns2 and ns2hd)tournaments in a row. Of course Exertus is definately 2nd best team. Unfortunately they have been always runner up because of Archaea.

    Anyway, Archaea, the alien of first match is already not losing at all since the beginning. Till the loss of onos, they were definately winning as usual.
  • TimmahIsASaintTimmahIsASaint Join Date: 2012-09-24 Member: 160678Members
    I mean did it seriously come down to one player dying (with the onos) ?
  • Vladimir Van VodkaVladimir Van Vodka Sexy Beast Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    I feel like Onos is the only viable alien siege weapon. <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(a slightly OP one at that.)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
    It always boils down to Celerity+Carapace then try to hold on to your higher lifeforms because losing them hurts your economy bad, then Onos rush with a rag tag team of what other lifeforms left supporting.
    Even at 1 CC, every-time I'm on aliens, we seem to need 1-2 Onos just to finish off the marines.

    Are we doing it wrong?
  • ScubboScubbo Join Date: 2012-10-03 Member: 161364Members
    its the only viable strat to counter grenade being able to take out entire teams, even if rines just shoot them at their own feet to hold off any invasion of anything but onos. lerk shooting spores would counter and fix it in my mind, but hey, its a lopsided core gameplay game on principal.
  • TimmahIsASaintTimmahIsASaint Join Date: 2012-09-24 Member: 160678Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1998724:date=Oct 27 2012, 03:38 PM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Oct 27 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel like Onos is the only viable alien siege weapon. <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(a slightly OP one at that.)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
    It always boils down to Celerity+Carapace then try to hold on to your higher lifeforms because losing them hurts your economy bad, then Onos rush with a rag tag team of what other lifeforms left supporting.
    Even at 1 CC, every-time I'm on aliens, we seem to need 1-2 Onos just to finish off the marines.

    Are we doing it wrong?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I feel like it comes down to the fact that with phase gates, marines will always be able to seige and far outresource aliens. So it always is going to come down to a late game in which marines will be far upgraded and aliens will not. What you end up with is 3 3 marines against a few fades and IF they die 3 3 marines against skulks which is a slaughter. Without any scaling on aliens skulks are essentially far more worthless than a single marine AND have longer spawn times. I'm not sure how you can be weaker and have longer spawn times and expect to win ? I feel like marines time spawn should be much longer and aliens should be much shorter. I think its phase gates that break the matchup personally. With constant spawn times it is incredibly hard for aliens to break sieges.

    Just my two cents, I'm not a pro or anything its just what I observe and feel when I play.
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Members
    one of the huge changes to phase gates made them so much more viable of map control as well
    (phase knockback)

    I remember once upon a time, if you manage to get 2-3 on the phase gate surrounding it, you can take out a pg
    these days even if you manage to get a whole team there, if they respond fast enough they can recover the pg
  • ScubboScubbo Join Date: 2012-10-03 Member: 161364Members
    instant travel with Obs too is a bit crazy, celerity has nothing on phase/obs == marines can go hardout assault with no worries of base, because they can just Obs back in a heartbeat --- no need to defend :\
  • noncomposmentisnoncomposmentis Join Date: 2004-11-13 Member: 32773Members
    "Instant obs travel" is actually one of the keys to winning. It costs 10 tres every time you beacon and also temporarily wipes out all of your map control. If aliens make marines beacon they have won a big battle even if they don't get any kills. I feel like archaea that game didn't place enough pressure on marine start. You have to get marines to defend *all* of their bases when they expand or they will overwhelm you.

    That said, the video is a good example of how a tiny number of tactical mistakes is what separates winning and losing on aliens, and the same isn't true for marines.
  • TimmahIsASaintTimmahIsASaint Join Date: 2012-09-24 Member: 160678Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1998740:date=Oct 27 2012, 04:12 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Oct 27 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Instant obs travel" is actually one of the keys to winning. It costs 10 tres every time you beacon and also temporarily wipes out all of your map control. If aliens make marines beacon they have won a big battle even if they don't get any kills. I feel like archaea that game didn't place enough pressure on marine start. You have to get marines to defend *all* of their bases when they expand or they will overwhelm you.

    That said, the video is a good example of how a tiny number of tactical mistakes is what separates winning and losing on aliens, and the same isn't true for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They had one base. And otherwise Archea killed their second one. There is no chance they could of sent multiple skulks or a fade to harrass base because during all that travel time thats people they can't defend with and people they couldn't attack double with. MEANWHILE if they did travel all the way over there theird probably be atleast 2 marines spawning and hey if they need help just walk through the phase gate they are all standing next to.

    Aliens CRUSHED them early game and honestly I don't think they made on major tactical error. The death of the onos was just a good play on marines part.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1998740:date=Oct 27 2012, 06:12 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Oct 27 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That said, the video is a good example of how a tiny number of tactical mistakes is what separates winning and losing on aliens, and the same isn't true for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah this seems to be the case.

    The alien commander has alot less to do, but every mistake seems to cause problems.

    The marine commander has alot more to do, but seems able to make mistake, lose structures and still win the game.


    Its a funny role reversal since NS1 was all about conservative marines and aggressive alien play.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited October 2012
    That's how veil plays between two teams who know how to play it properly. If the aliens make a mistake, like losing the Onos early, that's usually it, GG.

    I don't feel like writing a long post explaining why, but I'll just say this: On bigger maps like veil and docking, the marines have a significant advantage over the aliens.
  • ScubboScubbo Join Date: 2012-10-03 Member: 161364Members
    the fact they move about the same speed as a celerity skulk when sprinting is a pretty great feature
  • Vladimir Van VodkaVladimir Van Vodka Sexy Beast Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    UWE needs to think about more viable strategies for aliens, not nerf marines specifically.

    You know what, post 1.0 I can see this becoming less and less of a problem, they seem currently pressed for time, I'm just hoping for vast improvements in the next two or so months.

    Alien strategy seems very linear right now, is all I'm saying.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1998783:date=Oct 28 2012, 01:32 AM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Oct 28 2012, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien strategy seems very linear right now, is all I'm saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If by "linear" you mean that there is really only one viable strategy for aliens, then yes.

    In all honesty, I think there is a pretty clear agreement between most of the better players that playing aliens is pretty boring whilst playing marines is usually fun.
  • TimmahIsASaintTimmahIsASaint Join Date: 2012-09-24 Member: 160678Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1998787:date=Oct 27 2012, 05:40 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 27 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If by "linear" you mean that there is really only one viable strategy for aliens, then yes.

    In all honesty, I think there is a pretty clear agreement between most of the better players that playing aliens is pretty boring whilst playing marines is usually fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Cause they are vastly underpowered and essentially play defend two hives all day while marines get to slam them with attacks and fun tech ?
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1998792:date=Oct 28 2012, 11:02 AM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Oct 28 2012, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cause they are vastly underpowered and essentially play defend two hives all day while marines get to slam them with attacks and fun tech ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually they get to play "run back and forth between 2 hive" chasing phasing marines.

    AN organised marine team with phase tech is able to slaughter the alien team forcing them to constantly respond late as they chase the latest push to the other hive.
    Aliens have no way to keep up with marines, atleast in NS1 you had MC's which allowed telporting between hive.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1998820:date=Oct 28 2012, 03:10 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Oct 28 2012, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->atleast in NS1 you had MC's which allowed telporting between hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It isn't really so much about the hive teleportation, but sweeping changes to alien play in general. In NS1 you had faster, smaller, more responsive (in terms of movement control) skulks, lerks within 1 minute and fades at around 4 minutes into the game. Compare that to NS2 where you get lerks (that can be hard-countered by medpacks) at around 3 minutes and fades (with 250 less effective hitpoints) at around 10 minutes into the game.

    Of course that is a gross oversimplification, but it makes the point.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    I think Veil map design is a part of this problem.

    There isn't much room to go around - Marines push sub for a 2nd CC, if you want to circle around, you have to go ALL THE WAY from topo. Marines push to double, if you want to circle around, again ALL THE WAY from topo. Marines push to Cargo, okay, now you can attack double while they do this, but you're already losing at this point.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    On bigger maps, I feel like mobility crucially impairs aliens, because even though they can run faster than marines, marines have phase gates and axe sprint too.

    Put that together with encounters along the long and usually well-lit corridors of Veil, with very few places to hide and ambush, and you have marine domination (usually).

    For Docking, the map is a lot more playable right now IMO, since Marines don't get free res from landing pad anymore, and there are more vents enabling, again, better alien mobility which is crucial for that map since courtyard goes everywhere, and all RTs are extremely vulnerable, which requires very rapid response from aliens and commander communication to anticipate RTs being attacked before they actually are.

    But I dislike Veil for Aliens. From what I've seen on pubs, you have to stack the teams a bit in favor of Aliens to really have a decent game on Veil. Otherwise it's just a marine steamroll. Phase gate in double, minefield. Phase gate in Y junction, minefield. Grenade launchers/JP -> cargo down. It's all too predictable and boring.

    It would be interesting if Veil had a tech point inside double for example... or somewhere like C12?
  • ToumalToumal Join Date: 2010-05-02 Member: 71591Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1998828:date=Oct 28 2012, 02:48 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 28 2012, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1998828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 you had faster, smaller, more responsive (in terms of movement control) skulks, lerks within 1 minute and fades at around 4 minutes into the game. Compare that to NS2 where you get lerks (that can be hard-countered by medpacks) at around 3 minutes and fades (with 250 less effective hitpoints) at around 10 minutes into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thank you for putting into words what I was feeling all the time. Truer words have never been spoken.

    Imagine aliens had a lifeform that costs 20 res, does some ranged damage, but can also kill a marine up close in one hit. Also, when that alien dies, and another skulk walks by, he can pick it up and continue where the other one left off. Imagine the clamoring about imbalance if such a thing were to be in the game. And yet, it does exist, the marines have it, it's called a shotgun.

    I say it's time for the Lerk to be 20 res instead of 30, and for ranged gas to return. Don't nerf marines, but give aliens something to counter. Similarly, acid rocket for fade is something that's sorely missed for high tech confrontations.

    Right now alien stuff is way too pricy and you lose it when you die, while the next marine laughs and picks up that free grenade launcher from his fallen comrade.

    Hive transportation - oh yes please. Aliens absolutely need a counter for the phasegate. Having this work only between hives already makes it sufficiently different from the phasegate while allowing aliens to respond to attacks more quickly.
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