Sentry guns
Xarius
Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
<div class="IPBDescription">You knew this was coming</div>First off allow me to express my gratitude that you decided to bring sentries back from the realm of the useless, as an avid fan of 'strategic' (i.e non spammed) sentry guns prior to them being wrecked, it's a relief to be able to rely on something other than or supplementary to fast PGs for maintaining map control... In theory at least :)
When you said sentries were coming back, I was honestly hoping you would simply revert them to their state prior to the great sentrycide of b200-something. Surely it was only reasonable of myself and others to expect this? The compromise was simply that they were to be hardcapped. Instead however, it seems that, while their DMG and tracking was beefed up to the older values again (I'm not actually sure if they are exactly the old numbers, but they seem to come close from what I remember at least), you forgot or willingly left them in their papier-mâché state, on top of forcing commanders to clutter sentry guns together around another, totally pointless, sentry battery. (which is really just a remnant of older implementations)
I have absolutely no problem with them being hardcapped, au contraire, I think this is an acceptable solution, that enables commanders like myself to still use them to great effect, while preventing the excesses of sentry spam as were seen in older builds. BUT, as it stands, in their current vulnerable and 'forced close proximity', they become absolutely meaningless the moment bilebomb is researched. Don't get me wrong, bilebomb SHOULD absolutely counter sentry guns, but I do not agree a single bilebomb should be able to lay waste to 3 sentries AND the sentry battery in 4 - 5 volleys. That's 20 T.res totally wrecked in under a minute. There really is not much use in going the TF and sentry route if by the time the midgame hits (and mind you it hits fast), all the res you invested in sentry guns is almost instantly nullified. (This was never the case in the older builds, where sentry guns remained a reasonable platform for supporting map control well into the midgame) It's hard enough that with a cap of just 3 per power node and the close proximity there will always be blind spots, I really don't see why you need to make them so ridiculously vulnerable on top of that.
<b>All that I ask is a simple and small revision to make the use of sentry guns more viable, surely this is not entirely unreasonable?
- Remove the sentry battery so that the commander can place those 3 sentries freely in the room, instead of being forced to clutter them around some stupid box. I mean, why even have that box? You implemented it before as a sort of soft cap on sentry gun amounts and placement, but with the hardcap it's become entirely useless. Just hardcap 3 sentries per powernode, cut the middleman.
AND/OR
- Beef sentry gun HP up back to their old levels, there's really no reason they need to remain this vulnerable when capped at 3. Bilebomb will still easily deal with them, as will lerk gas, vortex, onos stomp and higher lifeforms in general. Not to mention that at only 3 there's always going to be blind spots.
</b>
Thanks for reading and please show your support :)
When you said sentries were coming back, I was honestly hoping you would simply revert them to their state prior to the great sentrycide of b200-something. Surely it was only reasonable of myself and others to expect this? The compromise was simply that they were to be hardcapped. Instead however, it seems that, while their DMG and tracking was beefed up to the older values again (I'm not actually sure if they are exactly the old numbers, but they seem to come close from what I remember at least), you forgot or willingly left them in their papier-mâché state, on top of forcing commanders to clutter sentry guns together around another, totally pointless, sentry battery. (which is really just a remnant of older implementations)
I have absolutely no problem with them being hardcapped, au contraire, I think this is an acceptable solution, that enables commanders like myself to still use them to great effect, while preventing the excesses of sentry spam as were seen in older builds. BUT, as it stands, in their current vulnerable and 'forced close proximity', they become absolutely meaningless the moment bilebomb is researched. Don't get me wrong, bilebomb SHOULD absolutely counter sentry guns, but I do not agree a single bilebomb should be able to lay waste to 3 sentries AND the sentry battery in 4 - 5 volleys. That's 20 T.res totally wrecked in under a minute. There really is not much use in going the TF and sentry route if by the time the midgame hits (and mind you it hits fast), all the res you invested in sentry guns is almost instantly nullified. (This was never the case in the older builds, where sentry guns remained a reasonable platform for supporting map control well into the midgame) It's hard enough that with a cap of just 3 per power node and the close proximity there will always be blind spots, I really don't see why you need to make them so ridiculously vulnerable on top of that.
<b>All that I ask is a simple and small revision to make the use of sentry guns more viable, surely this is not entirely unreasonable?
- Remove the sentry battery so that the commander can place those 3 sentries freely in the room, instead of being forced to clutter them around some stupid box. I mean, why even have that box? You implemented it before as a sort of soft cap on sentry gun amounts and placement, but with the hardcap it's become entirely useless. Just hardcap 3 sentries per powernode, cut the middleman.
AND/OR
- Beef sentry gun HP up back to their old levels, there's really no reason they need to remain this vulnerable when capped at 3. Bilebomb will still easily deal with them, as will lerk gas, vortex, onos stomp and higher lifeforms in general. Not to mention that at only 3 there's always going to be blind spots.
</b>
Thanks for reading and please show your support :)
Comments
And what exactly are you aiming for with a sentry buff? Should the commander just be able to slowly expand and add un-killable sentries to each room until he owns the map? In their current state they deter skulks from chomping on phase gates, etc. while serving as a temporary "hold fast" until actual marines arrive. It seems as if this is a suitable role.
And what exactly are you aiming for with a sentry buff? Should the commander just be able to slowly expand and add un-killable sentries to each room until he owns the map? In their current state they deter skulks from chomping on phase gates, etc. while serving as a temporary "hold fast" until actual marines arrive. It seems as if this is a suitable role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. And that's exactly why he suggested it.
+1 from me, I say hardcapping sentries is a good thing, just let us place them freely to avoid having a single bilebombing gorge make them utterly useless.
Increasing their health or giving the com more freedom of placing them will bring them back, just to the annoying state of the sentricide builds.
No, the cap will not change this. 3 were enough at this time per room to slowly capture and secure the whole map, room after room.
While you seem to want sentries to be able to defend bases alone against more than skulks, it stands that this is absolutely no fun to play against. The marine com is the only one, that has fun playing tower defense. But the aliens are screwed.
Use marines to stop gorges, before they arrive at your base. If you can't do this. So it is. Aliens need a chance to overcome sentry bases.
Increasing their health or giving the com more freedom of placing them will bring them back, just to the annoying state of the sentricide builds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is silly. 3, THREE, sentry guns. Comparing that to the days of 10+ sentries in a room is just outrageous.
The hardcapping is what's stopping them from ever causing a frustrating experiences like in those older builds.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In their current state they deter skulks from chomping on phase gates, etc. while serving as a temporary "hold fast" until actual marines arrive. It seems as if this is a suitable role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's good enough, and also a reason why I prefer just getting rid of the sentry battery over having them made tougher. At least then I don't have to clutter them in that ridiculously small circle around some sentry battery, having 1 bilebomb obliterate the entire sentry investment in moments.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Use marines to stop gorges, before they arrive at your base. If you can't do this. So it is. Aliens need a chance to overcome sentry bases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is not that gorges can come in and bilebomb sentries, it's that a single bilebomb can effectively hit all three sentry guns and the battery, as well as structures that are probably going to be close to it (else the sentries cant cover those structures) and kill the entire investment in under a minute. The gorge will always get to destroy them, even if marines are present, and it's totally worth suiciding for if needed. Aliens have a lot of chances to overcome sentries, and you seem to be entirely clueless about these options, despite them being listed in the OP.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, the cap will not change this. 3 were enough at this time per room to slowly capture and secure the whole map, room after room.
While you seem to want sentries to be able to defend bases alone against more than skulks, it stands that this is absolutely no fun to play against. The marine com is the only one, that has fun playing tower defense. But the aliens are screwed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Removing sentry boxes will do nothing to better enable commanders to turtle room by room with sentries, they can do that even with the sentry battery system, so your argument is entirely irrelevant. And if you want to turtle room by room, it will be at the cost of other tech and faster/larger map control, thus also enabling aliens to get to T2 and then absolutely wreck your sentry investment. Claiming that I am somehow in favour of sentries being able to defend bases by themselves is also entirely bull######, I am completely in favour of the sentry hardcap and untying them from this meaningless sentry battery won't magically allow sentries to hold rooms by themselves.
You clearly haven't used sentry guns as a commander, or even faced them as an alien in 224, you're reacting emotionally instead of rationally. Give me one good reason why my commander's discretion in regards to sentry placement in a room needs to be limited ON TOP OF having them hardcapped. It's totally uncalled for, and fixing that will in no way enable sentry spam or even make sentries significantly more annoying like some of the people here claim. (People who no doubt have never played marine commander and tried using sentries)
Yes, I have used sentry guns as a commander and just because I don't agree with you doesn't make it "ridiculous". Maybe someone else wants to join with their sentry gun opinion in this matter?
<!--quoteo(post=1997698:date=Oct 26 2012, 03:15 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 26 2012, 03:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh god, god forbid we can put a whopping 3 paper sentry guns actually covering 2 different places in a bigger room. Let's not forget that they will not be able to cover one another, so skulks would still be able to easily exploit blind spots, even without leap. The hardcap is more than enough<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course they would be able to cover each other a little better - if we're talking about removing the cluster around the battery. In a small room they would be able to move to the corners, effectively providing a "kill zone" in the middle, as I stated earlier, that also uses each sentry to cover one another. It's a box with 3 sentries all pointing towards the center.
<!--quoteo(post=1997698:date=Oct 26 2012, 03:15 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 26 2012, 03:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point is not that gorges can come in and bilebomb sentries, it's that a single bilebomb can effectively hit all three sentry guns and the battery, as well as structures that are probably going to be close to it (else the sentries cant cover those structures) and kill the entire investment in under a minute. The gorge will always get to destroy them, even if marines are present, and it's totally worth suiciding for if needed. Aliens have a lot of chances to overcome sentries, and you seem to be entirely clueless about these options, despite them being listed in the OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It sounds like marines have an ability that is hard-countered by a specific alien unit (which, in my opinion, is hard pressed to keep occupied during battle anyway) and you'd like to remove this? What would counter sentries then? Would we need to rely on a "mistake" by the marine commander with which a skulk could get lucky and kill a sentry? A few fly-overs from lerks? Wait until an Onos maybe? The cost-tradeoff between sentries and the gorge that can kill them seems pretty balanced right now. If you see a gorge harassing sentries, get a marine in there and stop him. If the team doesn't cooperate, then you lose your sentries.
You can buy one in the Armory, and place it anywhere you want. Max 1 Turret per marine, untill it is destroyed.
They're both pretty useless structures, but just enough deterrent to work together with player assistance. Just like a gorge can distract you while his/her hydras do some extra damage, the marine can camp near turrets so a couple of skulks can't take him down that easily.
Neither of them never meant to be the be-all-end-all solution for anything.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whoa dude. I'm just trying to have a conversation here about sentries. Didn't mean to personally offend you with my opinion?
Yes, I have used sentry guns as a commander and just because I don't agree with you doesn't make it "ridiculous". Maybe someone else wants to join with their sentry gun opinion in this matter?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We've been fighting to get sentries back in a meaningful way ever since they were wrecked by UWE, they should have just hardcapped them at the time and there would have not been any issues. But it's annoying having to constantly argue the same unfounded fears and irrational arguments that come up every time they are discussed. They are not spammable at three, they will not suffice in holding a base by themself, free placement in the room rather than tied to the sentry battery will not magically make them significantly more potent or troublesome to deal with. The sentry battery is a relic of previous attempts to fix sentry spam and it has absolutely no purpose any more now that there is a hardcap, it only serves to clutter the area.
At the very least the sentry box radius needs to go up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like marines have an ability that is hard-countered by a specific alien unit (which, in my opinion, is hard pressed to keep occupied during battle anyway) and you'd like to remove this? What would counter sentries then? Would we need to rely on a "mistake" by the marine commander with which a skulk could get lucky and kill a sentry? A few fly-overs from lerks? Wait until an Onos maybe? The cost-tradeoff between sentries and the gorge that can kill them seems pretty balanced right now. If you see a gorge harassing sentries, get a marine in there and stop him. If the team doesn't cooperate, then you lose your sentries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You keep misinterpreting my words. Where do I say that I don't want gorges to counter them? I am only asking to be able to given the opportunity to space my sentry guns out, the same way I can other buildings, so I don't have a single bilebomb affecting all the structures in my base. Unless you are going to argue that clever building placement is detrimental to the gorge's ability to damage bases? Maybe we should force a commander to build all structures in a radius around the CC then, just to make sure he can hit every single structure with one bilebomb.
If I place my sentries cleverly, which is not always going to be an option, depending on what I want to cover with the sentry guns (and there's only 3 so you can't cover everything and the sentry guns at the same time, or always have them spaced out) how is it not reasonable that the gorge will have to hit the sentry guns one by one? (Every single sentry gun will still go down in 3 - 4 BBs, so it only wins some times for marines to react rather than the entire investment being obliterated in seconds) It wouldn't in any way stop gorges from effectively countering sentry guns.
You can buy one in the Armory, and place it anywhere you want. Max 1 Turret per marine, untill it is destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would scale better with higher player counts. Three Sentries per room might actually be overpowered in a small game while the Sentries of course becomes more and more insignificant the more people there are on the server.
A few quick thoughts: X Sentry/Sentries per Marine (for instance 1 Sentry per Marine, so on a 10vs10 game, you'll have a maximum of 10 Sentries on the server) <b>and</b> Y Sentries per power node (if a Marine tries to place a Sentry in a room which already have Y Sentries, the model can be drawn in an orange color and with the no electricity symbol (rookies might not get this instantly, but if they stick around for a few games, they eventually will)). Sentries could still be droppable by the Comm, but require a Marine to carry it and deploy it.
I'm not the one that insults others for their opinion. You seem to confuse me with yourself. While I simply wrote my opinion, you can't handle it and get emotional. Not the way to discus.
I also don't see where I insulted you, I certainly didn't mean to offend you, but if you find my argumentative style offending in any way then you are probably not very at home with the internet.
You can buy one in the Armory, and place it anywhere you want. Max 1 Turret per marine, untill it is destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS ^
Don't make it a TD game...
Don't make it a TD game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, very much so.
<!--quoteo(post=1997716:date=Oct 26 2012, 03:41 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 26 2012, 03:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The against arguments thus far have been largely emotional and knee-jerk...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? And I like that you went back and took out the "god forbid" and other rude bits from your post.
<!--quoteo(post=1997716:date=Oct 26 2012, 03:41 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 26 2012, 03:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...only to be ridiculed as someone who 'wants to have sentries hold bases on their own' and 'bring back conditions prior to the sentrycide'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're not ridiculing you dude. People are not out to attack you. We're merely stating our own opinions on the matter!
At the moment they are a viable way to support marines before the power goes up for a phase gate and to early block off aliens with only one hive (no bile bomb) but come at a cost if you intend to spam them. (you get upgrades alot slower)
I have seen a match where a comm tried to save the Cafeteria CC with <u>three</u> batteries and nine sentries. He placed them near the CC in a line parallel to the wall and the batteries behind them. I attacked it as gorge from a far distant without being hit a single time -> yes, you need marines to defend them, but hey, you need rines to defend everything and then they can't attack. The point is, that with even one skulk to distract the rines in the room, it is possible to land 2-5 hits without problems. And that is too fast in my eyes. The most surprising thing about the attack was that the batteries went down way before the sentries rendering them useless after a very short period of time.
I would like to get rid of the battery as well. As it is of importance where you place your whips, it is also important for your tactics where you place sentries. And noone likes loosing several buildings to one area attack. BUT a Turret Factory with sentries around it was working fine in NS1. So maybe making the battery way more durable could be a compromise. You would still loose the sentries kinda fast, but at least they would be fighting untill the end and if rines can retake the room in time, they could start building sentries again without being forced to build a new and likewise useless battery again. NS2 should focus on adding fun and reducing frustrations. Small changes like this could be a win-win situation. The gorge is happy that the sentries went down and the rines are happy because they saved the battery in time. The only one unhappy is the comm, he lost res and can't place the sentries where he wants them.
Another improvement could be to increase the range of the sentries. While you can send BB flying across an entire room, sentries aren't even firing at you, that is not really helpful. But this would mean that they deal more damage to skulks and other aliens. So it wouldn't be a good solution. Well, it is not easy to find a solution. I just know that sentry groups are not likely to be placed in a good position against BB. Place them around the corner and the gorge has a wall between him and the sentries making it easy to schoot-and-scoot. Place the group too far into the room and they won't even reach the gorge that comes around the corner. So placing them at different corners in a room seems to be the most optimal use -> no battery.
Another way could be to change nothing, let the HP and range be unchanged, but give battery and sentries an anti BB-coating that reduces damage by 50% (just to name a number). Therefor they are still easy to kill by normal attacks and the BB damages the "civilian" buildings as fast as before, but the sentries stay long enough alive to make the rines react. But that is all just theory and should be a base for discussion.
- For the TD fear...they got nerfed because we played matches where 30 sentries were placed in every room. Being able to place 3 sentries in a room shouldn't be that big of a problem as the OP explained in detail. So stop trembling in fear. The devs won't allow turret farms as you can see.
- I am happy that the sentries are coming back. They were a part of NS1 and i missed them. No, i didn't miss 30 sentries in one room, but the idea of giving the rines more freedom to attack the aliens since you need less players to defend. A game is more fun when you can turn a defence into an offence. The problem with NS2 is that you don't have as much options as in NS1 and therefor more and more people are just leaving a server when they think the round is lost despite even trying to turn it around. That happens after two minutes as well as after 25mins when the team is still holding two hive locations. When you ask me, give the comms and players even more options to increase the fun/unforeseen outcomes of rounds/the replay value of maps! But that has to come past 1.0 ;)
Remove sentry battery.
I also want my old-school normal battery back, it allowed for awesome ninja tactics once in a while. Aliens can sort of do this with a shift and eggs, but marines are pretty limited due to the power nodes.
Or a Varnish Airbrush for marines, just to hear the Exos scream VARNISH ME over the mic before leaving base. That would be worth it alone.
If they insist on keeping that battery model in the game, bring back power packs? (Maybe have 1 per room max, so you can't just power an entire forward base with them) But please just get rid of sentry batteries, they're absolutely useless and just serve as a hindrance to the commander.
How interesting would it be if sentries targeted friends and foes? Just sit and think about all the neat things it could bring...then again, it would kind of suck to have to constantly recycle or move, what-have-you, when you want marines to push into an area. Kind of like the sentries from Aliens in the corridor...when active, you don't go in front of them :D.
Maybe sentries can be used to activate and deactivate (either commander or marine), this way they can cover the entrance to a room/base, but shut off when they need to be bypassed. This is getting pretty technical though and almost serves the same purpose as lockable doors. I miss those :(.
Not saying it's a balanced or great idea, but maybe fun to mess with.
What u guys want is a forward sentry u can place everywhere on the frontline so u can kill a hive while ur army of sentries protect everything... that would be so great :/
Righ now its meant to be easily countered by gorges... and thats a damn good thing.
What if it becomes more like it was before; No battery pack needed, no limit in number of sentries per room.. BUT.. ammo refill is done by marines on the ground, using their personal res.
-This will allow the sentries to get their old strength back, without becoming a replacement for the marines. There have to be marines around to keep them going.
-Yes they can be spammed, but they wont do much without ammo! So no use in spamming them, because the marines won't have enough personal res to keep them filled up with ammo.
-It is awesome. I can already see myself refilling a sentry with my last personal res, just in time to stop the wave of 100 skulks running through the corridor.
I support removing the sentry battery from the equation and making sentry guns dependent upon local power, the same as everything else. Let me place them wherever I want in a room. It's pretty hard to justify dropping sentries right now, as their tight grouping requirement turns them into a waste of 20 Tres the moment bilebomb gets involved, and they're not exactly hard to kill with anything more interesting than a skulk. Personally, I'd like to see them a little stronger, but I'd be happy to hold off on increasing their HP/armor/damage to see if simply letting them be placed independent of a sentry battery makes them worth using.