Aliens and Ranged Combat
beyond.wudge
Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
Join Date: 2012-10-19 Member: 162731Members
Natural Selection 1 began in a particular context and was popular at a particular time. The game was difficult to access in a time of difficult to access games and had a hardcore following when games tended to retain hardcore followings. Natural Selection 2 is born into a different time and a different way games are played.
For this reason many aspects of NS2 improve a less hardcore player's experience. Someone more casual can enjoy the game much more easily.
The mechanics do not allow for the highly invested player to simply dominate the less knowledgeable ones like it used to.
A bunny hopping skulk could truly out perform a number of weaker skulks. A strong Fade was almost literally impossible to kill when faced by an average player. NS1 had a hardcore following because it rewarded investment.
NS2 being more casual is not in of itself a bad thing. As a recent blowup in the SC2 community has shown, many players are recognising that a strong competitive scene relies on a strong casual scene.
Having played a lot of NS1 and now a good deal of NS2, I've come to realise that one core game philosophy is crippling the game's accessibility. The simple realisation is that Aliens being solely melee and Marines being solely ranged fundamentally does not work. In the 80s, when Aliens came out, the meme was new and exciting.
Now it is showing it's age as games like SC2 demonstrate how changing the Hydralisk in favour of the range 3 Roachs and melee Banelings so thoroughly held hostage the balance of the Zerg matchup. It's no mistake that range 4 roaches and buffed Infestor fungal DPS were required before the average player could enjoy a good chance of winning as Zerg.
Now, making Aliens into Marines is not the solution. In fact, Aliens in NS2 with Gorge buffs and the Lerk spikegun already show a move towards this way of thinking. However, the key change that is required is to the Skulk, not to the support classes.
In short, the Skulk needs a real ranged attack. Parasite should be replaced with something more effective that allows players of all skill levels to be contributing to battles meaningfully. Biting and ambushing should still be very effective. Biting should always be the weapon of choice on the extractor or command chair.
However, when a new player joins the game as a Skulk he should be able to select slot2 and transfer his previous FPS skills easily enough without forcibly having to start from scratch learning a whole new way of playing.
People shouldn't pick Aliens because they are bored with Marines. From talking with many of my friends that I try to introduce to the game, this seems to be their experience.
This is not about removing the melee focus of Aliens, it is about giving Skulks, the lifeform most new players spend most of their time playing as, a way of getting into the game before they learn the melee skillset.
Whether this is a Gorge spit style projectile attack or a buffed Parasite style weapon it does not matter. Whether Marines have hitscan weapons whilst Aliens have prediction weapons it does not matter. The point is, the skulk is what needs the accessible shooting style attack, not a support lifeform. If someone can't hop into the game, choose Aliens and in five minutes realise that if they aren't good enough to bite at least they can still really help with this secondary ranged attack then I think Natural Selection 2 is missing a big opportunity to make this game really fun for all sorts of players, not just the group of players who won't auto-stack Marines because Aliens just is too demanding at first to be worth their time.
For this reason many aspects of NS2 improve a less hardcore player's experience. Someone more casual can enjoy the game much more easily.
The mechanics do not allow for the highly invested player to simply dominate the less knowledgeable ones like it used to.
A bunny hopping skulk could truly out perform a number of weaker skulks. A strong Fade was almost literally impossible to kill when faced by an average player. NS1 had a hardcore following because it rewarded investment.
NS2 being more casual is not in of itself a bad thing. As a recent blowup in the SC2 community has shown, many players are recognising that a strong competitive scene relies on a strong casual scene.
Having played a lot of NS1 and now a good deal of NS2, I've come to realise that one core game philosophy is crippling the game's accessibility. The simple realisation is that Aliens being solely melee and Marines being solely ranged fundamentally does not work. In the 80s, when Aliens came out, the meme was new and exciting.
Now it is showing it's age as games like SC2 demonstrate how changing the Hydralisk in favour of the range 3 Roachs and melee Banelings so thoroughly held hostage the balance of the Zerg matchup. It's no mistake that range 4 roaches and buffed Infestor fungal DPS were required before the average player could enjoy a good chance of winning as Zerg.
Now, making Aliens into Marines is not the solution. In fact, Aliens in NS2 with Gorge buffs and the Lerk spikegun already show a move towards this way of thinking. However, the key change that is required is to the Skulk, not to the support classes.
In short, the Skulk needs a real ranged attack. Parasite should be replaced with something more effective that allows players of all skill levels to be contributing to battles meaningfully. Biting and ambushing should still be very effective. Biting should always be the weapon of choice on the extractor or command chair.
However, when a new player joins the game as a Skulk he should be able to select slot2 and transfer his previous FPS skills easily enough without forcibly having to start from scratch learning a whole new way of playing.
People shouldn't pick Aliens because they are bored with Marines. From talking with many of my friends that I try to introduce to the game, this seems to be their experience.
This is not about removing the melee focus of Aliens, it is about giving Skulks, the lifeform most new players spend most of their time playing as, a way of getting into the game before they learn the melee skillset.
Whether this is a Gorge spit style projectile attack or a buffed Parasite style weapon it does not matter. Whether Marines have hitscan weapons whilst Aliens have prediction weapons it does not matter. The point is, the skulk is what needs the accessible shooting style attack, not a support lifeform. If someone can't hop into the game, choose Aliens and in five minutes realise that if they aren't good enough to bite at least they can still really help with this secondary ranged attack then I think Natural Selection 2 is missing a big opportunity to make this game really fun for all sorts of players, not just the group of players who won't auto-stack Marines because Aliens just is too demanding at first to be worth their time.
Comments
While I do wish skulk had a better ranged attack (than parasite), I think that a more likely change would be to make melee attacks easier for newbs without breaking the pro play. For example, an alternate melee attack that would have a greater chance to hit but a decreased damage over time (when compared to regular attack).
That or make aliens liek Srs Op.
I'm not suggesting that Aliens need to be made into Call of Duty clones but a nod to some kind of proper shooting attack on the Skulk, even if it is a projectile, would go a long way to opening up that side for many players.
Having to know to evolve into a creature to use some kind of shooting skill, let alone something as potentially unforgiving as a Gorge or Lerk, is not a solution. The raw skill involved in using those lifeforms as shooters rules them out for this role. The ability must also be present in the basic lifeform. It must be present from the very start of the game.
The skulk needs some kind of decent ranged attack. Then I think a lot of the fear of playing Aliens will be mitigated.
Marines will always out-DPS Aliens in a shooting contest. Giving the skulk some kind of gorge spit or parasite-on-crack would not lead to ranged alien play > melee alien play.
This will also have the side-benefit of broadening the scope of the Alien play for future expansions to the gameplay. I think a lot of great potential in projectile vs hitscan combat has been missed in the Natural Selection series so far.
I hope everybody knows what I mean.
Aliens play-style should always revolve around hit and run, stealth, outmaneuvering, environmental advantage, CQC or support.
Again, it just feels too much out of place, no disrespect indended, I see where your getting at, believe me.
Marines gain so much health through armor upgrades (taking 4 bites, or 1.35 seconds to kill at point blank range), that Skulks are falling short of being able to fight Marines, even in 1v1.
From a fun-oriented perspective, giving Skulks a semi effective ranged weapon would add a little variety to their melee-centric combat, without taking fun away from Marine players.
I found it really hart to kill a moving and jumping Marine in NS1. In NS2, it's the same (and I like that).
I found it really hart to kill a Skulk on close range as a Marine in NS1. In NS2, it's the same again (and I like that too).
You can easily get close with one Leap, do your damage, get out again (1 or 2 leaps) when you are low on health or outnumbered. And you get killed very easily when you run in a straight line or stay still too long - it happens but that's ok.
What really lacks the NS2 Skulk in an end game scenario is his suicide bomber ability (I forgot the name). 1 leap and explosion was many times the key to killing even upgraded marines. Now, the skulk in end game is only good for killing Exos or as cannon fodder. =)
I think the Fade really needs an improvement which should be a better Adrenaline mutation. I always get killed in close range because I blink into fight, have to run around to do some damage and take lots of damage (easy target since a walking Fade is pretty slow) and have too little Adrenaline left to blink away. In NS1 the Fade was much better. It had that problem always (slow walking therefore easy target while attacking) but with its blinking AND selfhealing ability it was still playable. Now in NS2, with a Fade who needs to be upgraded with Blink first, that's totally different. (Plus, I keep getting stucked while blinking and that is totally annoying)
And the Marine weapons should be buffed a little. As an Onos, I lose half my health before I even reach the enemy... That's beneath an Onos' dignity! ;)
I think the Fade really needs an improvement which should be a better Adrenaline mutation. I always get killed in close range because I blink into fight, have to run around to do some damage and take lots of damage (easy target since a walking Fade is pretty slow) and have too little Adrenaline left to blink away. In NS1 the Fade was much better. It had that problem always (slow walking therefore easy target while attacking) but with its blinking AND selfhealing ability it was still playable. Now in NS2, with a Fade who needs to be upgraded with Blink first, that's totally different. (Plus, I keep getting stucked while blinking and that is totally annoying)
And the Marine weapons should be buffed a little. As an Onos, I lose half my health before I even reach the enemy... That's beneath an Onos' dignity! ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are talking about xenocide. Xenocide is just unpopular but still is in game.
As a fade I only use blink to escape. Try double jump ---> shadow step to move around. Fades in my opinion are pretty effective even without blink.
MARINE WEAPONS SHOULD NOT BE BUFFED!!! Late game marines are hard enough as is. If it actually is a problem, and I don't think it is, the onos should be changed not the marines in that instance.
I think kingkrabbe was going for <i>nerf</i>, not <i>buff</i>, since he was talking about how marines can slaughter an Onos before he can even close the distance.
Could be wrong though.
As a fade I only use blink to escape. Try double jump ---> shadow step to move around. Fades in my opinion are pretty effective even without blink.
MARINE WEAPONS SHOULD NOT BE BUFFED!!! Late game marines are hard enough as is. If it actually is a problem, and I don't think it is, the onos should be changed not the marines in that instance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is it unpopular? Leaping into the enemy base and exploding was the best thing to do in NS1 when you would get killed so easily by upgraded marines if you tried to engage them.
Allright, I will do that the next time I play Fade. But still I think Blink should be a starting ability for the Fade and Vortex the upgrade. A Fade without Blink seems pretty useless to me (allthough I never played double jump --> shadow step)
And I ment nerfed I'm sorry. The shotgun is way to powerful also grenades are kind of op (but they were op in NS1 too as far as I remember). Everything else (Exo, Flamethrower) is fine by me.
<!--quoteo(post=1994688:date=Oct 21 2012, 07:53 PM:name=ChaosXBeing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChaosXBeing @ Oct 21 2012, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think kingkrabbe was going for <i>nerf</i>, not <i>buff</i>, since he was talking about how marines can slaughter an Onos before he can even close the distance.
Could be wrong though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right. Sorry, I'm no english person. =)
While it looks good on paper I don't think aliens are ever going to see an upgrade that increases damage
Since parasite no longer lasts it basically is worthless except as a questionable opening move during the first 5 min of the game
New players find the Alien side unfamiliar. In a world with so many FPS games to play how can making it easy for them to transition be a bad thing? Something they can fall back on while they learn the new skills?
We all want many new faces in our future NS2 nights. Why not make their experience a bit more successful? We don't want them all lining up just to be a Marine.
A gorge spit, turbo-parasite or some kind of couple of metre long acid spray (think a SC2 Roach shot but with more spread) could go a long way to resolving this issue without fundamentally ruining the flavour of the game.