Ease of success and it's impact on gameplay
GaryWolf
Join Date: 2012-10-16 Member: 162457Members
Join Date: 2012-10-16 Member: 162457Members
Hey gang,
I want to sit down with all of you to discuss an issue that has been bothering me ever since I started testing NS2.
I've played both 'rines and Kharaa (and I'm a "veteran" from NS1), and one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the easy time 'rines have in their gameplay.
Basically, while playing Marine, one requires a small host of skills: strafing, dodging, jumping (!) and aiming. Why seems obvious:
<ul><li>Strafing
Obviously, strafing is very important for a multitude of reasons, the most important one being able to move while not closing in on the jaws of the enemy while firing.</li><li>Dodging
When an Alien does get too close, Marines rely on dodging side-to-side in order to not get chomped to death.</li><li>Jumping
What seems like a last ditch effort, Marines can bunny hop to prevent damage taken, and this usually works pretty well. (Especially against the unseasoned player.) It's true that the marine cannot run while jumping, but 2 or 3 jumps can easily be enough to kill an Alien, and the jump height doesn't really feel like it's being impacted at all (both as a 'rine and an Alien).</li><li>Aiming
Obviously, the Marine player needs to be able to follow the Alien while he zips around in order to kill it before he gets killed.</li></ul>
Now, Alien players require this skillset, and some others:
<ul><li>0-range combat
Aliens rely almost solely on melee combat (save for the obvious exceptions), and even though most of them have abilities that gets them in and out of that range, they are required to move in extremely close to the enemy.</li><li>Stealth
Even though players rarely use the Skulk as intended, stealth is incredibly important for this specific character. As the load-screen tip says, charging a Marine head on will likely result in your death.</li></ul>
The problem with this is not that one deals more damage than the other, it's how the damage is dished out, and what actions the player has to undertake in order to deal that damage.
When discussing this topic, points that comes up very frequently are the Shotgun and the Grenade Launcher. These weapons rely on close- to 0-range combat. This would be ok, if their reload time or fire rate was so low that a succesfully dodged Shotgun blast can be countered with a bite. However, this is not the case; the Marine can fire his weapon with such speed and accuracy, that any missed bites on the Alien's side surely mean his demise. This doesn't necessarily make the Marine stronger, but it does make it so that he has an easier time, which trickles down into the core gameplay: noob Marines vs. noob Aliens usually results in all the Aliens running in 1 by 1 and dying in a row. Even a more coordinated team is no contest versus a more coordinated squad of marines armed with Shotguns, Assault Rifles and Grenade Launchers.
All this would be no issue, if Aliens were supplied with similar weaponry. This is however not the case. On top of the fact that Aliens lack an even similar skillset, Marines have the ability to pick up their fallen comrades weaponry, or even buy each other weaponry and then dropping it, effectively sharing their resource pool. This is something that Aliens cannot do; upon death, they lose all their bonuses, and they cannot buy anything for anyone else, loadout-wise.
EDIT: I forgot the mention Eggs vs. Infantry Portals. Yes, one can rush portals and take them down quickly, but eggs are dead in no time, killing the alien inside as well.
EDIT: And let's not forget about 'rine-commander's ability to drop health on allies, whereas the Alien comm cannot. I'm sure you can think of more examples, but any others I think off I will add here.
Pile all these little problems together, and you've got a game that becomes more and more unbalanced as more features get put in, due to the fact that these core issues were not dealt with when they were supposed to (which is before any other features are introduced; the foundation has to be done before you can build upon it).
How does the rest of the community think about these issues?
P.S. Please fix the Pistol-damage-feedback-bug. It's been in for way too long as it is, since it seriously impacts gameplay: the lack of feedback causes the player not to dodge/notice when he starts dropping, often costing him his life. Also, I'd like to see any real-life Marine fire a pistol that fast and still that accurately. (What I'm suggesting is if the player spams fire on the Pistol, his accuracy should probably drop.)
EDIT: Phrasing.
I want to sit down with all of you to discuss an issue that has been bothering me ever since I started testing NS2.
I've played both 'rines and Kharaa (and I'm a "veteran" from NS1), and one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the easy time 'rines have in their gameplay.
Basically, while playing Marine, one requires a small host of skills: strafing, dodging, jumping (!) and aiming. Why seems obvious:
<ul><li>Strafing
Obviously, strafing is very important for a multitude of reasons, the most important one being able to move while not closing in on the jaws of the enemy while firing.</li><li>Dodging
When an Alien does get too close, Marines rely on dodging side-to-side in order to not get chomped to death.</li><li>Jumping
What seems like a last ditch effort, Marines can bunny hop to prevent damage taken, and this usually works pretty well. (Especially against the unseasoned player.) It's true that the marine cannot run while jumping, but 2 or 3 jumps can easily be enough to kill an Alien, and the jump height doesn't really feel like it's being impacted at all (both as a 'rine and an Alien).</li><li>Aiming
Obviously, the Marine player needs to be able to follow the Alien while he zips around in order to kill it before he gets killed.</li></ul>
Now, Alien players require this skillset, and some others:
<ul><li>0-range combat
Aliens rely almost solely on melee combat (save for the obvious exceptions), and even though most of them have abilities that gets them in and out of that range, they are required to move in extremely close to the enemy.</li><li>Stealth
Even though players rarely use the Skulk as intended, stealth is incredibly important for this specific character. As the load-screen tip says, charging a Marine head on will likely result in your death.</li></ul>
The problem with this is not that one deals more damage than the other, it's how the damage is dished out, and what actions the player has to undertake in order to deal that damage.
When discussing this topic, points that comes up very frequently are the Shotgun and the Grenade Launcher. These weapons rely on close- to 0-range combat. This would be ok, if their reload time or fire rate was so low that a succesfully dodged Shotgun blast can be countered with a bite. However, this is not the case; the Marine can fire his weapon with such speed and accuracy, that any missed bites on the Alien's side surely mean his demise. This doesn't necessarily make the Marine stronger, but it does make it so that he has an easier time, which trickles down into the core gameplay: noob Marines vs. noob Aliens usually results in all the Aliens running in 1 by 1 and dying in a row. Even a more coordinated team is no contest versus a more coordinated squad of marines armed with Shotguns, Assault Rifles and Grenade Launchers.
All this would be no issue, if Aliens were supplied with similar weaponry. This is however not the case. On top of the fact that Aliens lack an even similar skillset, Marines have the ability to pick up their fallen comrades weaponry, or even buy each other weaponry and then dropping it, effectively sharing their resource pool. This is something that Aliens cannot do; upon death, they lose all their bonuses, and they cannot buy anything for anyone else, loadout-wise.
EDIT: I forgot the mention Eggs vs. Infantry Portals. Yes, one can rush portals and take them down quickly, but eggs are dead in no time, killing the alien inside as well.
EDIT: And let's not forget about 'rine-commander's ability to drop health on allies, whereas the Alien comm cannot. I'm sure you can think of more examples, but any others I think off I will add here.
Pile all these little problems together, and you've got a game that becomes more and more unbalanced as more features get put in, due to the fact that these core issues were not dealt with when they were supposed to (which is before any other features are introduced; the foundation has to be done before you can build upon it).
How does the rest of the community think about these issues?
P.S. Please fix the Pistol-damage-feedback-bug. It's been in for way too long as it is, since it seriously impacts gameplay: the lack of feedback causes the player not to dodge/notice when he starts dropping, often costing him his life. Also, I'd like to see any real-life Marine fire a pistol that fast and still that accurately. (What I'm suggesting is if the player spams fire on the Pistol, his accuracy should probably drop.)
EDIT: Phrasing.
Comments
and you played ns1? really? every person that has played ns1 shouldve figured out by now that attacking from behind is viable and the best way to attack. hell with skulks up close in ns1 you could circle strafe a marine and bite them easily, staying behind them the while time.
Obviously. I also mentioned stealth. Chest-to-chest was merely a way of describing the range. As I said, charge a Marine head on and you're likely to find your demise.
Edited for clarity.
Besides they have fades.
If the skulks bite was 1 hit kill but he had less health it would encourage better stealth play and therefore better tactics instead of madly rushing all the time.
one thing I find contributes to this is how carefully you <i>always</i> have to play as an alien, despite how hard you're winning. you can be on tier 3 tech as alien and yet anyone with decent shotgun aim can still instantly remove you from a fight.
egg locking is extremely frustrating and way too effective and easy. in <i>every</i> other strategy game, there are risks with attempting to win the game early. egg locking is relatively low risk as aliens need to commit 100% of their resources to defending it (because it has the potential to instantly end the game), and yet it's relatively low risk for marines to attempt it. it seems to me every game I play on marines is either decided or heavily swayed by this strategy.
the other thing is that while playing aliens I feel like there's little room for individual skill improvement. when you're playing marines, I feel like you can always improve on your aim, positioning, whatever. there is almost always the potential to have lived in a situation where you died.
with aliens, this is made slightly better with the new skulk bite, but it's not by much. the skill comes from planning ambushes or strategies, with very little involved in aiming or movement skill. there's a higher skill cap to dodging, but a mechanic that relies mostly on your enemies messing up isn't exactly fun to play or work on.
<!--quoteo(post=1992237:date=Oct 16 2012, 04:17 AM:name=GaryWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GaryWolf @ Oct 16 2012, 04:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.S. Please fix the Pistol-damage-feedback-bug. It's been in for way too long as it is, since it seriously impacts gameplay: the lack of feedback causes the player not to dodge/notice when he starts dropping, often costing him his life. Also, I'd like to see any real-life Marine fire a pistol that fast and still that accurately. (What I'm suggesting is if the player spams fire on the Pistol, his accuracy should probably drop.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the silent pistol is an extremely frustrating bug that I do hope gets fixed, but I have to disagree 100% on accuracy decay in this game. the pistol fills a unique role in NS2 and I feel like it's currently fine.