pogo stick jumping

Gliss

<div class="IPBDescription">improvements on the skulk movement</div><div align='center'><!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro--><b>definition of terms</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></div>

<b>pogo stick jumping</b> is the method of jumping applied in many id Software games (Doom and Quake series). it's easier if I provide an example: first, press jump. then while still in the air, you release, press and hold jump again. if you are still holding jump when you land, you will automatically jump again.

<b>bunnyhopping</b> works because you gain speed while turning and strafing in the air (airstrafing is not relevant for NS2). when you touch the ground, friction is applied and slows you down to a stop. the player wants to jump on the exact same frame that he lands on the ground, so that no ground friction is applied and they can maintain their speed.

the skulk's <b>walljump</b> gives you a speed boost when you jump off of a wall - this is NS2's substitute for air control (strafing does not increase speed in NS2). again, with lots of speed build up and jumping on the exact frame you land on the wall / ground, you can minimize the amount of friction applied and maintain some really nice speeds.

<div align='center'><!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro--><b>problems</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></div>

1. timing

the problem lies with the timing aspect. I'm not entirely sure how the system works in NS2's engine, but the timing window for a jump should be somewhere around 0.0125 seconds.

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time#Types" target="_blank">"Mean reaction time for college-age individuals is about 160 milliseconds to detect an auditory stimulus, and approximately 190 milliseconds to detect visual stimulus. The mean reaction times for sprinters at the Beijing Olympics were 166 ms for males and 189 ms for females, but in one out of 1,000 starts they can achieve 109 ms and 121 ms, respectively.

[...]

Due to momentary attentional lapses, there is a considerable amount of variability in an individual's response time, which does not tend to follow a normal (Gaussian) distribution."</a>

tl;dr it's impossible to time properly, consistently. yes, there are those who did not use either a script or a macro and still were able to bunnyhop effectively in NS1. regardless of how well anyone can perform, it's still <i>objectively</i> better to use an automated method for spamming jump. your fingers will never spam as fast as this:

<div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain' style='height:200px;white-space:pre;overflow:auto'>*Space::
if GetKeyState("Space","P")
Loop
{
if not GetKeyState("Space","P")
break
Click
}
return</div>

wasn't one of NS1's original claims to fame was that it didn't require any special binds? except you're forced into doing one of these:
1) bind mousewheel to spam jump
2) use a macro to spam jump
3) have hardware that has a macro to spam jump

props if you spot a trend...

2. consistency

the second issue lies more with NS2 itself, but optimization issues in this game are seriously holding back any concept of "balance" and "gameplay". I'm not sure which issues are related (as far as warping, animations being choppy, "sinking through the floor / walls" effects, rubberbanding, packet loss with server issues), but I'm assuming (potentially incorrectly) that they can all be grouped under "optimization".
<div align='center'>
<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/Microsoft_PowerPoint_Icon.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<i>NS2.exe</i>
</div>
there's not really an effective way to judge if skulk movement is fine if the animations are so choppy that you can't even tell what direction they're going to be facing in the next frame you get. it's not just an issue with people having poor computers - the framerate of the game can be running at a solid 100 FPS while the server updates are like slideshows.
aside from the rest of the game, this has a massive impact on skulk movement.

I know it's silly to mention this as a point during the game's pre-release phase, but the issues with movement and even overall gameplay can't really be sorted out until the game *works* smoothly.

if pogo-stick jumping is implemented without fixing server optimization, then you'll have flying warping skulks while having solved nothing.

<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>mini-rant: this also ties into the rest of the balance changes, too. perfect example: skulk bite in 223. great change, overshadowed by the rest of the game being unplayable. were lerks really too fast before, or were they just chopping around in a 33 tic server? I mean, there's a guy walking around servers named "Mr. Blinko" who just spams animation canceling and crouching just to warp around because it's hilarious and sad. when someone does well in this game, they ask "how many FPS do you get?"</span>

<div align='center'><!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro--><b>suggestion</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></div>

id Software has solved this issue by implementing pogo stick jumping. quick recap: eliminates timing factor from bunnyhopping.
what does this accomplish?

this allows players to focus on the aircontrol and skill-based aspect of movement such as plotting routes, dodging, etc, instead of the impossible aspect of timing a 0.0125 second window. movement is made more consistent due to all players being able to time jump properly, and yet still has its basis in skill due to there being aspects of movement to master.

<div align='center'><!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro--><b>counter arguments</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></div>

<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro--><i>1. why "dumb it down"? isn't this just making it easier?</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

yes and no. this doesn't "make it easier", it removes the random element of skill based walljumping. there are elements that can be controlled, such as twitch aim, map knowledge and layout, etc. timing, however, is a random element that should be removed. the developers have expressed their desire for skill-based movement in aliens, and so it should be either fully embraced and we should work within its restraints, or fully removed. it's simply creating a basis for skill by removing the random elements and getting closer to consistency in skill.

<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro--><i>2. remove scripts / eliminate macros?</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

while I'm sure it's possible for the engine to detect macros that spam a single function at repeated times (I believe Black Ops had some form of removing macros in order to prevent pistol firing scripts)... these are the possible outcomes I can see with that:

1) if methods for spamming jump are successfully banned, then players rebind mousewheel to stay competitive(?), movement stays potentially amazing, but mostly random and not based in skill.

<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro--><i>3. leave it alone, hope it fixes itself?</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

1) players not using a method for spamming jump will be at a disadvantage

2) as a result, players will either be forced to rebind mousewheel or use a macro

if the game stays in this state, then we can all pretty much agree that NS2 will kill itself when they explain to MLG that we'll have to install autohotkey on everyone's computer, and every team will be sporting a terrible Razer mouse. players with better FPS are able to time jumps more precisely, achieving less friction, and will have an inherent advantage in walljumping.

<div align='center'><img src="http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/editorial/cebit2007-6/razer_mouse_2_sm.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<i>On second thought...</i></div>

<div align='center'><!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro--><b>closing notes</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></div>
why is this a big deal? currently, we're able to randomly hit 12 speed depending on the ticrate, FPS, weather, menstrual cycles, etc, and maintain randomly between 6-10. it has the potential to be a <i>great</i> tool for big skulk plays if implemented properly. the movement is one of the more truly unique features of playing NS2, so it should be constantly attended, refined, and improved. it would be doing NS2 and 10 years of NS1 history a massive injustice to leave it in its current, broken state.

hey, thanks for reading. I love you!
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS7Syq_rUhs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS7Syq_rUhs</a>

Bitey

I agree with this post.

WildChicken

Yes.

Agiel

Pogo stick jumping (or jump queueing) makes the game feel a lot more fluid and I'd very much like to see it in NS2. I can't think of any reason not to implement it. I mean, people are going to jump all the time anyway, it's not like they're going to do it more if this was added. Marines have slowdown when they land so spamming jump won't do them any good and I don't have any problem with aliens spamming jump as they won't gain any speed from it. All it does is make the game feel smoother. Also, all it'd take is editing like 2 lines of code. I've done it myself and I hate myself for doing it because now I curse my keyboard every time I jump because it feels like drinking orange juice after brushing your teeth. I've tried to convince Andi of this, but so far I've had little success :/

All that being said, I need to point out an error in your premise. There's currently a window of 0.3 seconds after you land as a Skulk, where you won't lose any speed. So the timing isn't nearly as harsh as you claim it to be.

Skie

I'd like to say that because you can <i>anticipate</i> hitting the ground at a tempo you are familiar with, then reaction time plays no part in it. If you can put this timing to your muscle memory, it's a simple thing of pressing the key at known intervals, instead of waiting for some cue after which you press the button. This allows you to achieve much better accuracy than 100ms.

But furthermore, I don't know if I'd like a pogo system, despite that you are correct in that then there would be nothing to exploit. I'm just so damned used to pressing mouse2 to jump that systems in which you can queue your jumps ... it just feels cheap. :)

I think NS2c uses pogo system atm, or that you can just hold jump which is even cheaper. My ideal jumping system for NS2 would be something of a combination of bunnyhop and walljump: To gain and maintain speed by bunnyhopping, but being able to do a bit more acrobatic leaps from walls (can adjust your jump direction by looking into that direction when jumping from a wall).

Also I would like to add that the current system that is in is pretty lacking, and it will change post v1.0, to something better. FPS should get a boost soon as well, eliminating that worry of random timing.

fanatic

<!--quoteo(post=1992554:date=Oct 17 2012, 01:31 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Oct 17 2012, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My ideal jumping system for NS2 would be something of a combination of bunnyhop and walljump: To gain and maintain speed by bunnyhopping, but being able to do a bit more acrobatic leaps from walls (can adjust your jump direction by looking into that direction when jumping from a wall).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have wet dreams of this.

Agiel

Guys, please don't turn this into yet another bunnyhopping thread.

<!--quoteo(post=1992554:date=Oct 17 2012, 02:31 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Oct 17 2012, 02:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1992554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But furthermore, I don't know if I'd like a pogo system, despite that you are correct in that then there would be nothing to exploit. I'm just so damned used to pressing mouse2 to jump that systems in which you can queue your jumps ... it just feels cheap. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This reminds me of the sort of elitist arguments you could see in the debate about removing the selection limit in Starcraft 2. Some people seem to have this idea that adding limitations for the sake of making the game harder is a good thing, even though it doesn't affect the actual game play.

In this case it's easy to see that this limitation doesn't add anything. If it did, how come we're not seeing pro Quake players arguing for the removal of jump queuing "to increase the skill ceiling"? In fact the opposite is true; we see people proposing jump queuing for games that don't have it. Other games, like Warsow and Fortress Forever (and NS2c?), go even further and allow you to hold the jump button, which even I would say is going too far.

The point here is that the skill isn't in the timing but rather in how you utilise the jumps and movements. Adding pogo stick jumping/jump queuing would allow us to focus more on that and less on battling bad mechanics.

elmo9000

+1 to op and fana's wet dream.

eh?

Well the holding down jump in ns2c is really just there to make debugging the movement easier.

If the movement can be balanced around players being able to do it more or less perfectly at the beginning without having to worry about people spending a week or two perfecting it; it's a lot easier / quicker to iterate on movement issues.

But I agree bhop/strafejump for speed and walljump just maintains speed is the way to go. It's the most intuitive movement mechanic proposed so far.

Queue'ing jumps is also needed, just as it is done in Q3.

I'd say ns2c has it as close to right as I could hope for atm, the only thing I would like different is slightly less air control to feel closer to VQ3 as that will make telegraphing movement more apparent as well as making circle jumps feel fluid.

xDragon

Yes the jump system in NS2c currently allows you to just hold jump, however there is a variable in Balance.lua called kJumpMode, which can be changed from 2 (holding jump), to 1 which is queued jumps like Quake, or 0 which is the default NS2 style.

The main reason for allowing you to hold jump is to test the movement mechanics closer to their limits quickly.

lolwow

Please don't make NS2 into Quake. Yes I know skill based movement bla bla if you want to bunnyhop and conc/rocket jump, there are games specially for that

elmo9000

<!--quoteo(post=1993014:date=Oct 18 2012, 02:15 AM:name=lolwow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolwow @ Oct 18 2012, 02:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please don't make NS2 into Quake. Yes I know skill based movement bla bla if you want to bunnyhop and conc/rocket jump, there are games specially for that<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No one wants to make ns2 into quake, but rather keep true to the skill based movement mechanics of ns1.

Agiel

I put a <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=103721073" target="_blank">mod up on the Workshop</a> that implements pogo stick jumping/jump queuing (you need to be logged in to follow that link). I've tested it with vanilla and Jaweese's Movement Mod and it seems to work fine. It's server-side obviously, but you can test it out a local server until some kind admind adds it to a real one.

HeatSurge

<!--quoteo(post=1993021:date=Oct 17 2012, 05:31 PM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Oct 17 2012, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one wants to make ns2 into quake, but rather keep true to the skill based movement mechanics of ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The skill based movement mechanics of ns1 were accomplished using a modified quake engine :-P . Just throwing that out there...

Balmark

<!--quoteo(post=1994129:date=Oct 20 2012, 04:01 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Oct 20 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I put a <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=103721073" target="_blank">mod up on the Workshop</a> that implements pogo stick jumping/jump queuing (you need to be logged in to follow that link). I've tested it with vanilla and Jaweese's Movement Mod and it seems to work fine. It's server-side obviously, but you can test it out a local server until some kind admind adds it to a real one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

hmm yeah, thb this sounds more like a mod than core server imho :)