Skulk Skill-Based Movement
Bad Mojo
Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67317Members
Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67317Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Has this been thoroughly discussed?</div>I've seen people identify the skill-ceiling problem with skulks being related to movement. I agree that when moving as a skulk, it feels awfully slow and as a marine I find it rather easy to track a skulk that is anywhere but running circles around me at point blank (at which point the skulk deserves to win the fight anyway if I am alone). Has anyone proposed any ideas?
It seems like a simple solution would be to give skulks an effective dodge. Same as in Unreal Tournament, just double tap the directional keys and you do a small leap in that direction. I think it should work in mid air as well. This will allow skulks to greatly increase the difficulty of marines trying to track them, and can be hard to predict.
This would allow skulks much needed versatility in movement that they seem to lack.
- dodging around a corner to use parasite
- juking left and right (on the ground and mid jump) while engaging marines
- possible floor to ceiling jump (jump + fwd dodge while looking up)
- Many combinations involving leap, such as side dodging from around a corner and leaping at an approaching marine before hitting the ground
EDIT: I forgot to mention wall jump. I know it is supposed to server a similar purpose, but to me (at least in its current state) it doesn't allow the full freedom of movement that skulks should have. You have to align yourself with the wall first to be able to make use of it. Whereas a dodge as I described could be used anywhere.
It seems like a simple solution would be to give skulks an effective dodge. Same as in Unreal Tournament, just double tap the directional keys and you do a small leap in that direction. I think it should work in mid air as well. This will allow skulks to greatly increase the difficulty of marines trying to track them, and can be hard to predict.
This would allow skulks much needed versatility in movement that they seem to lack.
- dodging around a corner to use parasite
- juking left and right (on the ground and mid jump) while engaging marines
- possible floor to ceiling jump (jump + fwd dodge while looking up)
- Many combinations involving leap, such as side dodging from around a corner and leaping at an approaching marine before hitting the ground
EDIT: I forgot to mention wall jump. I know it is supposed to server a similar purpose, but to me (at least in its current state) it doesn't allow the full freedom of movement that skulks should have. You have to align yourself with the wall first to be able to make use of it. Whereas a dodge as I described could be used anywhere.
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1984376:date=Sep 29 2012, 05:10 AM:name=Comprox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Comprox @ Sep 29 2012, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1984376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->most of the work done on wall jump did not make it into this patch as it was not ready.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See my old video of this below, especially in Rockdown's corridor.
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This was actually really fun to do, and felt fluid. This is the sort of thing they should have which required a certain amount of skill whilst being very simple.
Could you not do this with other life forms as well, connecting mouse movement with speed. You get really good feedback from it as well, like bunny hop moving the mouse in a certain way gave you a sort of 'feedback' or feeling when you were doing it correctly so you could feel when you were doing it correctly and adjust.
Wall jumping does not account for this, you either hit it on the mark or you don't.
In my opinion, skill based movement entails one thing, increasing your speed. The better you are at it the faster you get to go, and it comes at the cost of a highly predictable motion trajectory. You don't get to be fast and erratic. Its not fair, and its not fun to shoot at. Giving something as small as a skulk instant directional acceleration would cause me to pull my hair out with rage. The momentum-less movement of the fade is already infuriating enough.
Also, pressing a button in order to do some manoeuvre is not what I would call skill based movement.
this basically says it all
reminder: <i>warsow</i>
In my opinion, skill based movement entails one thing, increasing your speed. The better you are at it the faster you get to go, and it comes at the cost of a highly predictable motion trajectory. You don't get to be fast and erratic. Its not fair, and its not fun to shoot at. Giving something as small as a skulk instant directional acceleration would cause me to pull my hair out with rage. The momentum-less movement of the fade is already infuriating enough.
Also, pressing a button in order to do some manoeuvre is not what I would call skill based movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that increasing speed is a primary element of "skill based movement," but I don't think that is the only thing. It's also about the balance between how hard of a target you can make yourself for your opponent, while at the same time maintaining the effectiveness of your own attacks on them. As far as skulks go, I'm not even sure I would consider them "fast" to begin with, when engagine a marine from even medium range. Furthermore, as far as the dodge that I proposed goes, I think what you're imagining is a lot faster than what I am imagining. Also, dodging left or right while running toward a marine will make you a harder target or "erratic," but it also makes it take longer to reach the marine. So you wouldn't get to be fast and erratic. You're sacrificing a little of one for more of the other. Scouts in TF2 do this every day. With their double jumping and the ability to change direction in mid air, they can make themselves a harder target, but it's also harder to land your shots when you're doing that.
Lastly, I have two questions.
Why is it that every criticism for suggestions for ways to help balance out the aliens is from a solely marine perspective? You seemed only concerned with the difficulty of shooting said skulks as a marine.
And, if I'm not mistaken, you were basically referring to bhopping in your first three sentences. Isn't it true that there exists a script for pretty much every game that has bhopping that would allow someone to just press one button to execute it perfectly every time anyway?
ARG! This is the most obnoxious misconception ever.
THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
you cannot script bunny hopping. CAN NOT. The script you have heard about is used to spam the jump button so that players don't need to precisely time when to press jump.
The thing is, timing the jump isn't really a fun or interesting part of bunny hopping, and it isn't where the skill or advantage comes from. The cool part is the smooth and coordinated use of the mouse and keyboard to gain speed.
A second important point is many games (quake 3, warsow etc) that embrace bhop actually remove the timing requirement by allowing the player to hold jump in air to automatically jump the moment they hit the ground. This removes the timing requirement and allows the player to focus on the fun part of bhop.
But its the map knowledge, application of it in combat, basically how you can make the most out of it in every situation what makes it interesting.
I wonder what kind of bhop you're talking here. I'd be extremely impressed to see someone pick up the mouse movements in 5-10 seconds (not to speak of the somewhat controversial keyboard part that doesn't show up in spectate) and even more amazed to see someone actually execute highly efficient bhop until some weeks of practise or so.
Surely you can do random mouse/keyboard wiggle, maybe even gain some speed pretty quickly, but accelerating rapidly to 1.8 times base speed in 2 jumps and maintaining the speed there is already quite challenging. And that's still far away from of pulling things off and adapting your movement in the middle of actual gameplay.
sorry but if you think you could learn/master the mouse/keyboard motions to bhop by watching 5-10 seconds of some one else playing... I don't think you have any idea how deep bhop is, or how flexible the system is. Maybe you can get a general idea of the mouse movements, but actually mastering the skill takes a really long time. At this point it is hard to take your suggestions seriously because you have been making stuff up about bunny hop to try and prove your point, when it is obvious to me you have no idea what your talking about.
I said increasing the aliens speed was fine, which makes it harder to shoot. The key is that you must make it harder to shoot, you mustn't make it impossible. The faster the alien goes, the harder prediction becomes, to the point where many players are not good enough to predict the movement, and therefore cannot aim effectively. That is fine. The problem arises when you introduce erratic and instant movement, removing all notion of prediction. You are no longer exceeding the skill level of the marine trying to shoot you, you have removed his ability to feasibly predict you at all. Then it just comes down whether or not the marine made the most of the times when the alien wasn't dodging, because the times when he was are effectively written off.
I think all i am really looking for out of the skulk is a way to get an initial burst of speed and a more complicated way of maintaining that speed on the ground. If there wasnt a method of gaining speed unless i had to start the process over so be it.
I love BHOP and for me when i finally got to where i was using BHOP in NS1 without a forward movement key and actually gaining speed... i was over joyed and filled with a huge sense of accomplishment. Then came actually using it in combat, around the map, and gaining that crucial burst of speed from a stand still (no wind up, i only saw the best BHOP'ers do this.).
So in the end if wall hop is indeed here to stay allow me to maintain the speed i get from hopping off the wall for at least 3 well timed jumps before it degrades. I would love to be able to build speed by jumping from the floor and immediately jumping from the wall to increase or renew me speed gain. That was i have the feel of always moving (jumping) and having to time my jump to land on a wall and away again. The most boring thing i could think of is simply jumping off a wall and then running on the floor till the speed gave out. :/
BHOP air control would be nice as well, but beggars cant be choosers eh?
I wonder? I can't recall many threads about it. Perhaps someone should try and bring it to the developers attention.
I hear that someone new is now working on the movement (crazy late, yo!). In truth, I would like to know what kind of gaming experience this person has and whether he's ever played NS1/2. It's nigh-on-impossible to create good movement mechanics when you haven't experienced it or don't understand it.
I hear that someone new is now working on the movement (crazy late, yo!). In truth, I would like to know what kind of gaming experience this person has and whether he's ever played NS1/2. It's nigh-on-impossible to create good movement mechanics when you haven't experienced it or don't understand it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2C is such a blast to play. One server managed to get 6v6 going on.
The one thing that stood out the most?
How <i>responsive </i>and <i>maneuverable</i> both sides were. It was just amazing.
And of course the 2nd thing was how the guy started turtling. Can't have NS1 be remade without a proper turtle eh?
Please do this rather then trying to reinvent the wheel of skill based movement.
Like everyone else has already said, NS2C's movement mechanics (basic skulk and marine play) are VASTLY superior to NS2's. It just feels so much more responsive and gameplay is a lot more enjoyable as a result.
See my old video of this below, especially in Rockdown's corridor.
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This was actually really fun to do, and felt fluid. This is the sort of thing they should have which required a certain amount of skill whilst being very simple.
Could you not do this with other life forms as well, connecting mouse movement with speed. You get really good feedback from it as well, like bunny hop moving the mouse in a certain way gave you a sort of 'feedback' or feeling when you were doing it correctly so you could feel when you were doing it correctly and adjust.
Wall jumping does not account for this, you either hit it on the mark or you don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk was really fun to fly around like that. I really hope it comes back and I really hope that all other life forms have skill based movement.
Also loving the idea of gorge drifting :)
I hope that the the marine trick jump thing in the recent tweet is a fun way to move around too.
In a game where you do as much if not more moving as shooting, moving NEEDS to be fun on its own.
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You'll find that when having movement skills is a prerequisite for being on a list, most things on that list will have movement skills.
As for bhop, its unintuitive and the movement is immersion breaking. It worked in NS1 because everything looked bad. Watching a skulk turn 180 degrees using air friction alone in the spark engine will look retarded.
I strongly urge every one reading this thread to load up the game, and join one of the NS2c severs. It will take 2 minutes to download the mod. Then join the marine team, or the alien team and just try strafing left and right.
the difference is phenomenal.
Sure, one of the prerequisites by the creators were "fast paced action" so your point is partly valid.
But I don't see how to define intuition on skill-based movement systems properly. Walljumping? Shooting with a rocket on your feet? Bhop? What would be intuitive? It kinda feels like some relationship to realism would be necessary, but I personally put gameplay and fun in front of realism, unless I play a sim. I rather have it balanced on easy-to-learn/difficult-to-master terms than obvious to try myself. It's also not obvious that you need a second hive so your skulk can jump farther (leap) - it needs explanation. If something comes intuitive, it's very nice, but not the main goal for a single feature.
Blind: That was a very enjoyable video. Cheers mate!
Supsu: I agree, I personally love ns2c cause of nostalgia but would rather play ns2 with movement mod.