The new Onos
rantology
Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
<div class="IPBDescription">oh noes</div>Just wanted to know what everyone thinks of the new Onos now that some time has passed and we've been able to play with it for a bit. This patch buffed both his mobility and his survivability substantially, on top of this the Jetpack remains nerfed in both fuel capacity and acceleration (onos can actually outrun/chase down JPs now O_o). So the way I see it the onos received a double buff (triple if you count the state of JPs).
IMO: He feels a little too strong now, is easily the highest skill floor/ lowest skill ceiling unit in the game at the moment (you <i>really</i> have to try hard to die as an Onos). I think he could have done with just one buff, but boosting both mobility and survivability was too much. One or the other would have been fine/needed but both seems over the top. I think I would prefer to keep the survivability boost but revert his mobility change.
But I'd be most interested to see ideas for perhaps raising the skill ceiling a little more for the onos (as much as one can for a tank/siege unit).
My ideas:
-Make Charge the 2nd hive ability for Onos, require research and increase it's energy cost to use
-Increase the energy management attributes in general for Onos, at the moment you never have to even look at your energy bar and you always have the energy to charge away in retreat regardless of what you've been doing.
-In the future I think the feature of Bone Shield sounded interesting (reduced damage taken from the front?) which would allow the reduction of the base HP/AP and rely more on the player's positioning to determine survivability.
And finally I think Onos probably needs to require 3 hives to be droppable from the Khamm, in light of the state of it's usage in the competitive games lately (much like fades were moved to a 2 hive req).
what do you guys think? experience in pubs/comp games?
IMO: He feels a little too strong now, is easily the highest skill floor/ lowest skill ceiling unit in the game at the moment (you <i>really</i> have to try hard to die as an Onos). I think he could have done with just one buff, but boosting both mobility and survivability was too much. One or the other would have been fine/needed but both seems over the top. I think I would prefer to keep the survivability boost but revert his mobility change.
But I'd be most interested to see ideas for perhaps raising the skill ceiling a little more for the onos (as much as one can for a tank/siege unit).
My ideas:
-Make Charge the 2nd hive ability for Onos, require research and increase it's energy cost to use
-Increase the energy management attributes in general for Onos, at the moment you never have to even look at your energy bar and you always have the energy to charge away in retreat regardless of what you've been doing.
-In the future I think the feature of Bone Shield sounded interesting (reduced damage taken from the front?) which would allow the reduction of the base HP/AP and rely more on the player's positioning to determine survivability.
And finally I think Onos probably needs to require 3 hives to be droppable from the Khamm, in light of the state of it's usage in the competitive games lately (much like fades were moved to a 2 hive req).
what do you guys think? experience in pubs/comp games?
Comments
The Onos really should be the wrecking ball, as it doesn't have a lot else going for it. (hopefully bone shied post 1.0)
After 40 minute turtle the other day on docking, i absolutely LOVE the new onos sound.. its anxiety building. My only critique with it is to allow it to scale in volume as they get closer, currently you can hear an onos halfway across the map as if they are in the next room.
In my honest opinion I think leap and blink need to remain tied to Hive2 while Bile Bomb and Spores are moved to 1Hive (requires research still).
Hell the entire alien tech tree needs a big rework to really encourage multiple playstyles.
In a nutshell, It's not that the "Onos" is too good. It's that all the other options are "Too bad".
If an onos is standing next to a shift and spams stomp, he can indefinitely hold 1-8 marines on the floor without problem. Who cares about killing them if you can lock them on the ground with stomp. Seems a bit broken to me but i don't really know how it could be fixed. Maybe a slight immunity to stomp after 3 or more back to back stomps, something that would not affect an adrenaline onos, but would only effect a shift onos.
That, or 3 hives required for the egg.
Ex.: Phase gates and multiple angles of approach to cut off retreat.
When he's on the field his presence should encourage less ramboing jetpackers/rines and more groupwork + cover.
I don't know how I feel about 3rd hive needed for khamm onos drops. I would want dual exos to be moved to 3rd command station to normalize tech pacing between teams.
He should be able to survive for a while considering his cost.
As for him chasing down JPs now, it's actually a nice balance. Sure he can chase them down, but depending on your situation you can try and fly up onto something higher where you can just shoot him without worry.
* removed slow delay on charge
* increased HP substantially
* increased tres egg cost of onos from 50 -> 75
Right now he's breaking competitive play (6v6). Aliens go the following... Hive > leap > rt > rt > onos egg > base rush
If they were to debuff him please keep his mobility!
* removed slow delay on charge
* increased HP substantially
* increased tres egg cost of onos from 50 -> 75
Right now he's breaking competitive play (6v6). Aliens go the following... Hive > leap > rt > rt > onos egg > base rush
If they were to debuff him please keep his mobility!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
His base walk speed was also buffed by 1-2 I believe.
In the least I would like to see energy changes to make energy management an important part of being a good Onos (as well as moving onos drops to Hive 3). I agree that the onos should indeed be powerful, but I'd also prefer it if he was not such a brainless button-mash to play like he is now. Just like bad Exo's are easily punished for over-extending or rambo'ing, I'd like to see bad Onos punishable by being slow to retreat if they are not wise in managing energy.
I do wish both had a higher skill ceiling though.
I do wish both had a higher skill ceiling though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, the issue is that there is nothing to slow his entrance to the field like the exo, which takes a long time to tech up to.
Bone Shield may fix that, post 1.0
I'll also add that part of the problem is the cost for the comm to drop an onos, compared to the cost to drop a fade. Since you always want to research blink before dropping a fade (yet another problem caused by not putting blink on hive1 and shadowstep on hive2), dropping the first fade actually costs 80 tres, while the onos costs 75. Of course you still have to research blink later on, but now you have an onos out there to defend all your stuff while you're teching up. It really is a no-brainer.
Edit: woops messed up the numbers a little.
But yea, the skill ceiling on both the onos and the exo are non-existent, it's kind of sad.
But yea, the skill ceiling on both the onos and the exo are non-existent, it's kind of sad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It just went from 50 -> 75. That is quite a jump
It definately needs some tweaking, but those tweaks can be really small. Combined with forcing the Onos to manage energy a little this would be fine.
The issue surrounding fade/onos costs that Fana pointed out is excellent and definately needs addressing, but perhaps it would be better to adjust the fade (with blink on hive 1 like suggested).
For clarity, my suggestion is to move the onos<b> drops</b> to hive 3. You can still onos on 1 hive from p-res. (Though P-res flow/timings for aliens (and alien RT control in general) is another topic entirely)
Sorry, I totally misread your post. Moving commander drops to hive 3 is reasonable!
Give each hive a unique ability for each tech path (was there but was removed for some god known reason)
Increase the usefulness of each tech tree's unlocked units (Shifts/shades/crags)
Move some T2 upgrades to simply needing a single hive and being researched as a requirement *Cough gorge/lerk*
In a nutshell Aliens need more useful res sinks
It's been interesting to see, but I imagine it would be supported by most as a reasonable balance change.
In ns1, heavy armor(exo equiv) with the heavy machine gun, would plow through skulk after skulk, it was a lot of fun :) but its weakness was the onos.
Jetpacks however were the onos counter.
I think ns2 has got this the wrong way around - and it feels really weird that 2 clever skulks (0 res) can destroy 50-75 res top tier unit.
Or 1 gorge can keep several exos at bay with bilebomb.
Its confusing for me :P
You're thinking about it in the wrong way. The objective with the Onos isn't to not die, just as the objective with the Fade isn't to not die. The objective is to contribute meaningfully, while you are alive. In that sense I'm still liable to think the Onos is completely worthless, let alone having a "high skill ceiling".
<!--quoteo(post=1986836:date=Oct 3 2012, 11:31 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 3 2012, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're thinking about it in the wrong way. The objective with the Onos isn't to not die, just as the objective with the Fade isn't to not die. The objective is to contribute meaningfully, while you are alive. In that sense I'm still liable to think the Onos is completely worthless, let alone having a "high skill ceiling".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol?
But the bottom line here is, Aliens can still win every game with an Onos rush if they choose to. It's just a matter of executing it with good players. Play defensively for 6 minutes. Sit on your resource and 2 hives. Win.
Most public games you don't see this because either the Commanders aren't aware of the current *loosely used* "exploit" in the economy or the Commander actually has a sense of decency and goes for a regular strategy. Thus if the most viable strategies are used, Marines must win in basically 5-6 minutes (do enough damage to resource, 2nd hive lock) or essentially lose the game. Not very fun :)
Did you watch any games in the BBC?