<!--quoteo(post=1986819:date=Oct 4 2012, 12:03 AM:name=MaGicBush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaGicBush @ Oct 4 2012, 12:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This could be easily solved by making turrets actually a good defense against 1-3 skulks. From what I have seen the marine turrets are way under-powered in the current build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hell no! Please not!
On a even team what are the aliens supposed to do? The marines defend their base with structures and the marines expand/attack without the need to defend their base them self?
Whips are melee range, can be avoided easily in low numbers, are way to expensive, marines are ranged so they just shoot the hive etc. Hydras are still pretty weak, not enough to defend anything on their own against a good marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1986908:date=Oct 4 2012, 06:57 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 4 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yea.. you really don't need to have the cc/powernode/obs die in 4 seconds to make this possible.
Also, exo should be beaconable. Its far too exploitable for marine teams that know what their doing (jp/exo mix) where beacon no longer loses you forward pressure at the forward phasegate - aliens can no longer force beacon. On the other side, its far too unintuitive for new players who all go exo and lose the game in some cheesy way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No don't make them beaconable. If the marines have a split team, half exo half normal marines. The aliens can split those by forcing a beacon and kill the exos easier. If the marines are full exo, the aliens can try to kill the marine base before the exo train kills everything and if the marines lose this way they deserve it.
<!--quoteo(post=1986919:date=Oct 4 2012, 05:41 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Oct 4 2012, 05:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a even team what are the aliens supposed to do? The marines defend their base with structures and the marines expand/attack without the need to defend their base them self?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont see an issue with 3-4 sentries being able to stop 1-2 skulks in base. If they are expensive enough and limited enough (either by hard caps, energy, or something else), i cant really see a problem with sentries.
The issue is not 1-2 skulks though, is the whole alien team (at elast 6) which could not be stopped by turrets.
Mines dont really work since it would cost 15 res per mine pack, which would then get destroyed after the first rush so, 15 res per free skulk rush = bankrupt marines
<!--quoteo(post=1986922:date=Oct 4 2012, 07:54 AM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Oct 4 2012, 07:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986922"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont see an issue with 3-4 sentries being able to stop 1-2 skulks in base. If they are expensive enough and limited enough (either by hard caps, energy, or something else), i cant really see a problem with sentries.
The issue is not 1-2 skulks though, is the whole alien team (at elast 6) which could not be stopped by turrets.
Mines dont really work since it would cost 15 res per mine pack, which would then get destroyed after the first rush so, 15 res per free skulk rush = bankrupt marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When 6 skulks rush the marine base and are killed by mines. They are out of their hive room for a while, enough time for marines to put pressure on a hive. And if the 6 skulks are killed by 1-2 minepacks that's a good price!
<!--quoteo(post=1986919:date=Oct 4 2012, 10:41 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Oct 4 2012, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No don't make them beaconable. If the marines have a split team, half exo half normal marines. The aliens can split those by forcing a beacon and kill the exos easier. If the marines are full exo, the aliens can try to kill the marine base before the exo train kills everything and if the marines lose this way they deserve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, this is the fantasy world everyone seems to be living in. 1) Exo's who can aim are tougher than you think. Its not as simple as "oh split the light marines and we can kill the exo's!". May i remind you dual exo's win against onos, single minigun exo has cointoss against onos. 2) MACs 3) forward phasegate camping 4) Forcing a beacon requires a good ammount of player commitment. Who's left to kill the exo's? 5) New players save for exosuits. There is a HUGE disconnect between the wants of the player and the needs of the team. This is NOT a good mecahnic.
*edit* let me put it like this. - If i see the whole alien team base rushing me, i will beacon/med/nano etc. and ask the exo's to walk in and kill the undefended hive. - If i see half the team base rush, i will do the same. - If i see one skulk harassing base, i will ask/hope someone has the brains to phase back.
No exo beacon is exploitable to the <b>advantage</b> of the marines with smart players
<!--quoteo(post=1986924:date=Oct 4 2012, 01:00 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Oct 4 2012, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When 6 skulks rush the marine base and are killed by mines. They are out of their hive room for a while, enough time for marines to put pressure on a hive. And if the 6 skulks are killed by 1-2 minepacks that's a good price!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This! Other than that i'm really puzzled by this topic.. Next we gonna complain about skulk rushes in general?
But for the fun of it let's play it trough:
1. Scenario Skulks rush MS and destroy the OBs first, to prevent a beacon. Marine reaction -> Spawn from IP's, Phase in trough PG. A decent Marine will take at least one skulk with him before dying, with 2 IP's in the base+ PG that can turn out to be quite fast reinforcements.
2. Scenario Skulks rush MS and go for Powernode first Marine reaction -> Beacon (Having no res for a Beacon is a short coming on the commanders side and not an valid counter-argument, with energy a commander could as well waste all his energy on Scans and be equally screwed in the case of a rush)
Let's also not forget that a couple of well placed mines on either the OBs or the Powernode have the potential to completely screw over such an rush. Sure you might be able to "evade them" with alien vision, but that's not of much use with 3+ Skulks around trying to find a place to bite the same Powernode/OBs, a single skulk taking a misstep in that situation is gonna blow up all of them munching that structure. A single marine in the base will also make "evading those mines" an whole other story.
Least and most important: If you get surprised by such a rush then part of the blame is on you. It's kinda obvious when your Marines can roam the map freely without running into any serious Kharaa opposition (because they are busy meeting up on the other side of the map).
I agree that the current state of Sentries is a pity full one and that the removal of Powerpacks also heavily impact Marine defense capabilities. The Powerpacks offered a nice way to harden defenses when Marines had the spare res, i'm still puzzled to this day way they had to be removed.
But i still fail to see the "big issue" here because coordinated Base-rushes have always been a powerful yet potential rewarding tactic. Let's also not ignore the drawbacks of such an tactic: You basically give up all map control for a one shot chance at (maybe) winning a game. Worst case: You take out the Main-base and force them to reloc to their second CC, which might possibly be in an place that's even more difficult to rush (Crossroads). But to do that you often end up sacrificing a Hive or a couple of RT's (Lost map control!).
A good commander sometimes might even allow Kharaa to "base rush" him, if he he has a second base and aliens are down to 1 Hive it's often way more efficient to use that moment to take out their remaining hive while it's completely undefended because the Kharaa are busy eating stuff in MS. Like many other things it's mostly a trade-off but certainly nothing "imbalanced", a good Marine team can react and counter such rushes, a bad Marine team will get surprised and (rightfully) lose the round.
Imho it's an example for one of the most beautiful things about NS, the ability to get an comeback even with all odds stacked against your team, trough simple teamplay and coordination.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1986939:date=Oct 4 2012, 02:58 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Oct 4 2012, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986939"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'm really puzzled by this topic..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe you wouldn't be so puzzled if you actually bothered to read it. Nobody is complaining about mid or late game baserushes.
It's a shame that a team moderately behind only has one strategy of winning, and that's scoring a critical hit with a base rush. This is more true for aliens than marines since marines retain their upgrades on one base. One hive skulks have zero options against jetpacking marines. There is no recovery except to base rush. The meta game is not very good right now.
Assuming a 6 skulk skulk (lol) rush, i believe you can actually kill the powernode before the beacon can finish, even if the commander triggers it the instant the node gets attacked. Saying that a marine comm should always float 10 res for a beacon is pretty bleh, especially early game which is when this is an issue. Assuming basic build of 2rts armory obs, that leaves you with 5 res, so thats 30 seconds before you can beacon, assuming no meds. Pulling off the rush before 30 seconds is pretty difficult, but if you play the timings right when the marines take the 3rt you have a 20 second window of no beacon, basically a pretty easy win if timed right.
Base rushing is a valid tactic and losing to it is your own fault. You put all your chips out on the table, don't cry when you lose and house takes them all.
<!--quoteo(post=1986924:date=Oct 4 2012, 06:00 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Oct 4 2012, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When 6 skulks rush the marine base and are killed by mines. They are out of their hive room for a while, enough time for marines to put pressure on a hive. And if the 6 skulks are killed by 1-2 minepacks that's a good price!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
30 res to kill 6 skulks is a pretty fair price when attacking (like with a shotgun), but as a one-time-only defense against free lifeforms that can be done less than a min later....30 res per min becomes unsustainable is all i was sayin
<!--quoteo(post=1987078:date=Oct 4 2012, 02:01 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Oct 4 2012, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Base rushing is a valid tactic and losing to it is your own fault. You put all your chips out on the table, don't cry when you lose and house takes them all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah? What's so valid while everyone including most of competitive players that show themselves on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 complaining about 4 secs rush? I ask again, does Panther rush at COH finish game in 4 secs? Does Zergling rush of Starcraft finish game also in 4 secs? I think NS2 is so far the only Strategy game which the base rush finishes game in one hit. You must play both sides of the team. I play both almost equally, and the conclusion is always same.
Keep calling them who command far better than anybody, including you 'fault' and 'cry'
<!--quoteo(post=1987109:date=Oct 4 2012, 07:18 PM:name=MisterYoon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterYoon @ Oct 4 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah? What's so valid while everyone including most of competitive players that show themselves on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 complaining about 4 secs rush? I ask again, does Panther rush at COH finish game in 4 secs? Does Zergling rush of Starcraft finish game also in 4 secs? I think NS2 is so far the only Strategy game which the base rush finishes game in one hit. You must play both sides of the team. I play both almost equally, and the conclusion is always same.
Keep calling them who command far better than anybody, including you 'fault' and 'cry'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you speaking of the 4 second rush at the very start of the game? Or the 4 second rush 5, 10, 15 minutes or more into the game?
Edit: Couldn't careless what competitive players think as this game is nowhere even near balanced "waaah, alien rush, waah" aside.
We pulled out power cells to make sentry batteries, then made sentries crap against lifeforms... the only real defense at one site against 5+ skulks rushing the power node is a comm with a grenade launcher or an exo just chilling out in base in case of 5+ skulks rushing the power node. Two observatories don't do you much good when the power goes down before the beacon fires off.
Now, the only MAPWIDE defense against this involves spawn points and a secondary arms lab at your second CC. And that involves resources.
I'm still a fan of "command chair powers the room" now that apparently turrets are supposed to shoot at buildings, but we'll see how this shapes up.
On a even team what are the aliens supposed to do? The marines defend their base with structures and the marines expand/attack without the need to defend their base them self?
Whips are melee range, can be avoided easily in low numbers, are way to expensive, marines are ranged so they just shoot the hive etc. Hydras are still pretty weak, not enough to defend anything on their own against a good marine.
No don't make them beaconable. If the marines have a split team, half exo half normal marines. The aliens can split those by forcing a beacon and kill the exos easier. If the marines are full exo, the aliens can try to kill the marine base before the exo train kills everything and if the marines lose this way they deserve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why not just remove marine turrets from the game then? Some kind of hard cap or the energy idea above would be efficient along with either bringing back acid rocket for fades, or bile bomb do a little more damage to buildings. Right now any game I have been on never uses them so why do they exist at all?
All well and good but how does the Aliens counter the Marines mobility through PG's and Beacons, the use of both allows Marines a rather large advantage mid - late game over Aliens. This allows Marines the ability to continously apply pressure and be able to respond to an attack, Aliens risk being too weak to defend structures each time they go out as a pack... if they are too far from the hive thats being attacked, bye bye hivel. Considering that Aliens absolutely need a quick 2nd hive to at least be able to compete against Marines...the chances the Aliens will have more vunerable hives are greater than the Marines having vunerable CC's...even then the CC's can be linked via PG's, and each CC can have a Beacon to recall to THAT CC.
Early game, Aliens have a small window to base rush and win BUT in pro matches that works because the team leaves the base to cap and apply early pressure and in pubs it happens because pubbers are still trying to stack a side and slowing up the populating of the sides... the common factor ? Not enough boots at the base.
Aliens are more mobile ? They still have to traverse the territory, and each arrive at different speeds... Marines pop out of the PGs more or less as a group. Aliens have better static defences ? Whips range is short and situational... put them at the door and Marines can sprint past thier effective range, put them near the Hive and the Marines can stand outside its range and shoot. Hydras ? Too weak and way to limited in numbers... the old OC was a nasty piece of work for a Marine to encounter, the Hydras are just cute. Marines can also (at a cost) be heavily assisted by thier commander, the Kham though is rather limited. Marines have more anti structure weapons that work at a nice safe range, hell ARC's dont even need LOS... a scan and they can fire well enough. Marines can repair a repelled attack a lot easier and faster than Aliens can heal up the Marine damage, Marines can win through attrition while Aliens more or less need to wipe out the whole lot in one attack or the base will be back to full functionality before the Aliens can return.
I dont have an issue with removing the power node as a weakness at the base (say CC powered IP's) but I am pretty sure Aliens lack decent siege breaking abilities. BB ? On a fat slow Lifeform that cant really take or deal much damage to Marines. Onos ? Drops when focused and very often has to run off long before doing any damage, relies on the Marines lack of co-ordination.... or catching them out of the base. Fades ? Weak vs structures . Lerks ? Cant stay still long enough to do damage a structure... they have to move or die.
Dont forget , in that same tournament... the Marines base rushed the Aliens, and won. Eggs are the powernodes of the Aliens, in my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1986948:date=Oct 4 2012, 02:50 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 4 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you wouldn't be so puzzled if you actually bothered to read it. Nobody is complaining about mid or late game baserushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that version would puzzle me even more. At least considering that "skulk rushes" at the beginning of the round and in early game in general have been a staple strategy in NS for like... forever? Heck there have been times when Marines expected them and waited for them at the beginning of every round. But that had been during NS, guess in NS2 things are way different and stacking one type of lifeform to gang up on a single target is considered "imbalanced/broken" by now?
The problem is not that early base rushes are possible. It is that there is no downside to them for aliens, they are reasonably likely to succeed and all other options are worse, meaning they are quite frequently and will probably only become more so.
Surely the downside is that it's time spent not biting down or defending resource towers? I mean, technically base rushes are equally a possibility as marines, and in pub games I more often see marine hive rushes succeed than alien ones. (Simply because if a marine base is caught unprepared you can still beacon, where as an unattended hive can go down in a matter of minutes against a full team of marines) Not to mention that the alien spawn system is balls.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1985710:date=Oct 1 2012, 06:45 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 1 2012, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1985710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hopefully nobody will jump at me for this comparison, but I think this is one of those situations where comparing NS2 to NS1 is useful.
Baserushing in NS1 was potentially just as rewarding as baserushing currently is in NS2. It gave you a chance to not only recover from a bad situation, but also potentially end the game right then and there. It also gave you a way to punish marines for overextending. These are all valid gameplay mechanics that should be preserved in NS2.
The difference between NS1 and NS2 lie in the risk of baserushing. The risk can be divided into two factors: (a) The risk of the baserush failing and (b) the risk of the marines countering your failed baserush by starting a spawncamp and instantly ending the game in their favor, or killing your resnodes and thereby gaining a decisive advantage. In NS1, both of these were very real dangers. There was a high likelyhood of your baserush failing, and if you failed, there was an even higher likelyhood that you would lose the game.
Compare that to NS2, where baserushes succeed with alarming frequency and even when they fail, the negative consequences for the alien team are slight, if at all existing. It should, then, not be surprising that baserushing is an exceedingly popular tactic in competitive play.
To state the reason why baserushing is a problem in NS2 in one sentence: The risk/reward of baserushing in NS2 is highly biased in the favor of reward.
The game mechanics that cause this risk/reward imbalance can be summed up in the following factors (there may be other factors too, please contribute), some of which influence the (a) factor of the risk, while others influence the (b) factor of the risk:
(1) Alien spawn system (wave spawn, eggs): It doesn't matter if your entire team dies at the same time, you still all spawn in at the same time it takes one dead alien to spawn. Starting a spawncamp is also nigh-impossible unless you've spent a significant amount of time grinding the alien egg population down. (2) Alien comm: No longer need parts of your team to go gorge and build structures; your economy is not influenced in any way by sending five skulks to the marine base. (3) Comm-dropped mines have to be researched: Can't drop mines around important structures at the start of the round. (4) Comm-dropped welders have to be researched: Can't immediately drop a welder if, for example, your command station is severly damaged. (5) Powernodes: Highly vulnerable structure that serves no other purpose than to enable easy instant wins. (6) Command station health: Relatively weak compared to alien damage output, allows the aliens to kill it and effectively ending the game before the marines can react. (7) Instant hive drop: Since instant hive drop is the best alien strategy anyway, and requires no effort from the players to construct, sending all five skulks to the marine base doesn't delay alien tech at all. (8) Marine skill ceiling bias: Since the marines have a significant advantage in matches between high-level teams, desperation tactics like baserushes become more appealing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well one other factor making base rushes easier to pull off and less punishing is the small scale of the maps. Distances are covered way faster by Kharaa than marines, that's also another major difference to NS1.
But i think many of the issues in a 6v6 competitive situation happen due to balancing random XvX play. Spawn waves is a good example for that, hardening the egg mechanics like that is another example. Without wave based spawning the game played like glue in non-organized matches with high player numbers. I've always been a fan of having Kharaa respawn rate tied to the number of Hives in a more meaningful way so Kharaa respawn can scale over the course of a round regardless of playernumbers.
I also never understood the decision to make welders and mines a) researchable and b) so expensive in terms of actual use (mines) Imho Mines and welders shouldn't require research and mines need something to make them either worth their cost (stun explosions on small lifeforms) or make them cheaper in general. But that would lead to spamage problems in non-organized matches with high player numbers.
But simple changes like these would lessen the strain on the Marine teams economy if a Kharaa team decides to keep dedicating to baserushes. To me it also looks like this is just another of these issues that could simply be "fixed" by having 6v6 based competitive mode with it's own fixed balance variables and some changed mechanics. The gameplay dynamics with high playernumbers are just vastly different compared to gameplay with a fixed 6v6 player count.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I wrote up an idea on the matter that would help reduce the effectiveness of alien baserushes while still making an alien onslaught be a viable tactic to end the game.
Comments
Hell no! Please not!
On a even team what are the aliens supposed to do? The marines defend their base with structures and the marines expand/attack without the need to defend their base them self?
Whips are melee range, can be avoided easily in low numbers, are way to expensive, marines are ranged so they just shoot the hive etc. Hydras are still pretty weak, not enough to defend anything on their own against a good marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1986908:date=Oct 4 2012, 06:57 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 4 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yea.. you really don't need to have the cc/powernode/obs die in 4 seconds to make this possible.
Also, exo should be beaconable. Its far too exploitable for marine teams that know what their doing (jp/exo mix) where beacon no longer loses you forward pressure at the forward phasegate - aliens can no longer force beacon. On the other side, its far too unintuitive for new players who all go exo and lose the game in some cheesy way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No don't make them beaconable. If the marines have a split team, half exo half normal marines. The aliens can split those by forcing a beacon and kill the exos easier. If the marines are full exo, the aliens can try to kill the marine base before the exo train kills everything and if the marines lose this way they deserve it.
I dont see an issue with 3-4 sentries being able to stop 1-2 skulks in base. If they are expensive enough and limited enough (either by hard caps, energy, or something else), i cant really see a problem with sentries.
The issue is not 1-2 skulks though, is the whole alien team (at elast 6) which could not be stopped by turrets.
Mines dont really work since it would cost 15 res per mine pack, which would then get destroyed after the first rush so, 15 res per free skulk rush = bankrupt marines
The issue is not 1-2 skulks though, is the whole alien team (at elast 6) which could not be stopped by turrets.
Mines dont really work since it would cost 15 res per mine pack, which would then get destroyed after the first rush so, 15 res per free skulk rush = bankrupt marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When 6 skulks rush the marine base and are killed by mines. They are out of their hive room for a while, enough time for marines to put pressure on a hive. And if the 6 skulks are killed by 1-2 minepacks that's a good price!
No, this is the fantasy world everyone seems to be living in.
1) Exo's who can aim are tougher than you think. Its not as simple as "oh split the light marines and we can kill the exo's!". May i remind you dual exo's win against onos, single minigun exo has cointoss against onos.
2) MACs
3) forward phasegate camping
4) Forcing a beacon requires a good ammount of player commitment. Who's left to kill the exo's?
5) New players save for exosuits. There is a HUGE disconnect between the wants of the player and the needs of the team. This is NOT a good mecahnic.
*edit*
let me put it like this.
- If i see the whole alien team base rushing me, i will beacon/med/nano etc. and ask the exo's to walk in and kill the undefended hive.
- If i see half the team base rush, i will do the same.
- If i see one skulk harassing base, i will ask/hope someone has the brains to phase back.
No exo beacon is exploitable to the <b>advantage</b> of the marines with smart players
This!
Other than that i'm really puzzled by this topic..
Next we gonna complain about skulk rushes in general?
But for the fun of it let's play it trough:
1. Scenario
Skulks rush MS and destroy the OBs first, to prevent a beacon.
Marine reaction -> Spawn from IP's, Phase in trough PG. A decent Marine will take at least one skulk with him before dying, with 2 IP's in the base+ PG that can turn out to be quite fast reinforcements.
2. Scenario
Skulks rush MS and go for Powernode first
Marine reaction -> Beacon
(Having no res for a Beacon is a short coming on the commanders side and not an valid counter-argument, with energy a commander could as well waste all his energy on Scans and be equally screwed in the case of a rush)
Let's also not forget that a couple of well placed mines on either the OBs or the Powernode have the potential to completely screw over such an rush. Sure you might be able to "evade them" with alien vision, but that's not of much use with 3+ Skulks around trying to find a place to bite the same Powernode/OBs, a single skulk taking a misstep in that situation is gonna blow up all of them munching that structure. A single marine in the base will also make "evading those mines" an whole other story.
Least and most important: If you get surprised by such a rush then part of the blame is on you. It's kinda obvious when your Marines can roam the map freely without running into any serious Kharaa opposition (because they are busy meeting up on the other side of the map).
I agree that the current state of Sentries is a pity full one and that the removal of Powerpacks also heavily impact Marine defense capabilities. The Powerpacks offered a nice way to harden defenses when Marines had the spare res, i'm still puzzled to this day way they had to be removed.
But i still fail to see the "big issue" here because coordinated Base-rushes have always been a powerful yet potential rewarding tactic. Let's also not ignore the drawbacks of such an tactic: You basically give up all map control for a one shot chance at (maybe) winning a game. Worst case: You take out the Main-base and force them to reloc to their second CC, which might possibly be in an place that's even more difficult to rush (Crossroads). But to do that you often end up sacrificing a Hive or a couple of RT's (Lost map control!).
A good commander sometimes might even allow Kharaa to "base rush" him, if he he has a second base and aliens are down to 1 Hive it's often way more efficient to use that moment to take out their remaining hive while it's completely undefended because the Kharaa are busy eating stuff in MS.
Like many other things it's mostly a trade-off but certainly nothing "imbalanced", a good Marine team can react and counter such rushes, a bad Marine team will get surprised and (rightfully) lose the round.
Imho it's an example for one of the most beautiful things about NS, the ability to get an comeback even with all odds stacked against your team, trough simple teamplay and coordination.
Maybe you wouldn't be so puzzled if you actually bothered to read it. Nobody is complaining about mid or late game baserushes.
30 res to kill 6 skulks is a pretty fair price when attacking (like with a shotgun), but as a one-time-only defense against free lifeforms that can be done less than a min later....30 res per min becomes unsustainable is all i was sayin
Yeah? What's so valid while everyone including most of competitive players that show themselves on twitch.tv/naturalselection2 complaining about 4 secs rush? I ask again, does Panther rush at COH finish game in 4 secs? Does Zergling rush of Starcraft finish game also in 4 secs? I think NS2 is so far the only Strategy game which the base rush finishes game in one hit. You must play both sides of the team. I play both almost equally, and the conclusion is always same.
Keep calling them who command far better than anybody, including you 'fault' and 'cry'
Keep calling them who command far better than anybody, including you 'fault' and 'cry'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you speaking of the 4 second rush at the very start of the game? Or the 4 second rush 5, 10, 15 minutes or more into the game?
Edit: Couldn't careless what competitive players think as this game is nowhere even near balanced "waaah, alien rush, waah" aside.
Now, the only MAPWIDE defense against this involves spawn points and a secondary arms lab at your second CC. And that involves resources.
I'm still a fan of "command chair powers the room" now that apparently turrets are supposed to shoot at buildings, but we'll see how this shapes up.
On a even team what are the aliens supposed to do? The marines defend their base with structures and the marines expand/attack without the need to defend their base them self?
Whips are melee range, can be avoided easily in low numbers, are way to expensive, marines are ranged so they just shoot the hive etc. Hydras are still pretty weak, not enough to defend anything on their own against a good marine.
No don't make them beaconable. If the marines have a split team, half exo half normal marines. The aliens can split those by forcing a beacon and kill the exos easier. If the marines are full exo, the aliens can try to kill the marine base before the exo train kills everything and if the marines lose this way they deserve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why not just remove marine turrets from the game then? Some kind of hard cap or the energy idea above would be efficient along with either bringing back acid rocket for fades, or bile bomb do a little more damage to buildings. Right now any game I have been on never uses them so why do they exist at all?
This allows Marines the ability to continously apply pressure and be able to respond to an attack, Aliens risk being too weak to defend structures each time they go out as a pack... if they are too far from the hive thats being attacked, bye bye hivel.
Considering that Aliens absolutely need a quick 2nd hive to at least be able to compete against Marines...the chances the Aliens will have more vunerable hives are greater than the Marines having vunerable CC's...even then the CC's can be linked via PG's, and each CC can have a Beacon to recall to THAT CC.
Early game, Aliens have a small window to base rush and win BUT in pro matches that works because the team leaves the base to cap and apply early pressure and in pubs it happens because pubbers are still trying to stack a side and slowing up the populating of the sides... the common factor ? Not enough boots at the base.
Aliens are more mobile ? They still have to traverse the territory, and each arrive at different speeds... Marines pop out of the PGs more or less as a group.
Aliens have better static defences ? Whips range is short and situational... put them at the door and Marines can sprint past thier effective range, put them near the Hive and the Marines can stand outside its range and shoot.
Hydras ? Too weak and way to limited in numbers... the old OC was a nasty piece of work for a Marine to encounter, the Hydras are just cute.
Marines can also (at a cost) be heavily assisted by thier commander, the Kham though is rather limited.
Marines have more anti structure weapons that work at a nice safe range, hell ARC's dont even need LOS... a scan and they can fire well enough.
Marines can repair a repelled attack a lot easier and faster than Aliens can heal up the Marine damage, Marines can win through attrition while Aliens more or less need to wipe out the whole lot in one attack or the base will be back to full functionality before the Aliens can return.
I dont have an issue with removing the power node as a weakness at the base (say CC powered IP's) but I am pretty sure Aliens lack decent siege breaking abilities.
BB ? On a fat slow Lifeform that cant really take or deal much damage to Marines.
Onos ? Drops when focused and very often has to run off long before doing any damage, relies on the Marines lack of co-ordination.... or catching them out of the base.
Fades ? Weak vs structures .
Lerks ? Cant stay still long enough to do damage a structure... they have to move or die.
Dont forget , in that same tournament... the Marines base rushed the Aliens, and won. Eggs are the powernodes of the Aliens, in my opinion.
Actually, that version would puzzle me even more. At least considering that "skulk rushes" at the beginning of the round and in early game in general have been a staple strategy in NS for like... forever?
Heck there have been times when Marines expected them and waited for them at the beginning of every round. But that had been during NS, guess in NS2 things are way different and stacking one type of lifeform to gang up on a single target is considered "imbalanced/broken" by now?
The problem is not that early base rushes are possible. It is that there is no downside to them for aliens, they are reasonably likely to succeed and all other options are worse, meaning they are quite frequently and will probably only become more so.
This makes for incredibly boring gameplay.
Baserushing in NS1 was potentially just as rewarding as baserushing currently is in NS2. It gave you a chance to not only recover from a bad situation, but also potentially end the game right then and there. It also gave you a way to punish marines for overextending. These are all valid gameplay mechanics that should be preserved in NS2.
The difference between NS1 and NS2 lie in the risk of baserushing. The risk can be divided into two factors: (a) The risk of the baserush failing and (b) the risk of the marines countering your failed baserush by starting a spawncamp and instantly ending the game in their favor, or killing your resnodes and thereby gaining a decisive advantage. In NS1, both of these were very real dangers. There was a high likelyhood of your baserush failing, and if you failed, there was an even higher likelyhood that you would lose the game.
Compare that to NS2, where baserushes succeed with alarming frequency and even when they fail, the negative consequences for the alien team are slight, if at all existing. It should, then, not be surprising that baserushing is an exceedingly popular tactic in competitive play.
To state the reason why baserushing is a problem in NS2 in one sentence: The risk/reward of baserushing in NS2 is highly biased in the favor of reward.
The game mechanics that cause this risk/reward imbalance can be summed up in the following factors (there may be other factors too, please contribute), some of which influence the (a) factor of the risk, while others influence the (b) factor of the risk:
(1) Alien spawn system (wave spawn, eggs): It doesn't matter if your entire team dies at the same time, you still all spawn in at the same time it takes one dead alien to spawn. Starting a spawncamp is also nigh-impossible unless you've spent a significant amount of time grinding the alien egg population down.
(2) Alien comm: No longer need parts of your team to go gorge and build structures; your economy is not influenced in any way by sending five skulks to the marine base.
(3) Comm-dropped mines have to be researched: Can't drop mines around important structures at the start of the round.
(4) Comm-dropped welders have to be researched: Can't immediately drop a welder if, for example, your command station is severly damaged.
(5) Powernodes: Highly vulnerable structure that serves no other purpose than to enable easy instant wins.
(6) Command station health: Relatively weak compared to alien damage output, allows the aliens to kill it and effectively ending the game before the marines can react.
(7) Instant hive drop: Since instant hive drop is the best alien strategy anyway, and requires no effort from the players to construct, sending all five skulks to the marine base doesn't delay alien tech at all.
(8) Marine skill ceiling bias: Since the marines have a significant advantage in matches between high-level teams, desperation tactics like baserushes become more appealing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But i think many of the issues in a 6v6 competitive situation happen due to balancing random XvX play. Spawn waves is a good example for that, hardening the egg mechanics like that is another example. Without wave based spawning the game played like glue in non-organized matches with high player numbers. I've always been a fan of having Kharaa respawn rate tied to the number of Hives in a more meaningful way so Kharaa respawn can scale over the course of a round regardless of playernumbers.
I also never understood the decision to make welders and mines a) researchable and b) so expensive in terms of actual use (mines)
Imho Mines and welders shouldn't require research and mines need something to make them either worth their cost (stun explosions on small lifeforms) or make them cheaper in general. But that would lead to spamage problems in non-organized matches with high player numbers.
But simple changes like these would lessen the strain on the Marine teams economy if a Kharaa team decides to keep dedicating to baserushes.
To me it also looks like this is just another of these issues that could simply be "fixed" by having 6v6 based competitive mode with it's own fixed balance variables and some changed mechanics. The gameplay dynamics with high playernumbers are just vastly different compared to gameplay with a fixed 6v6 player count.
Deals with fleshing out the power system.
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